For this special edition of "Kevin Talks to Anonymous People About Controversial Stuff and Then Posts It On a Saturday Afternoon Instead of His Usual Tuesday Because Less People Are Paying Attention and He Doesn't Feel Like Arguing...That Much," I decided to bite the bullet and talk with a Bernie Sanders supporter about how terrified I am that we're going to have to have all the same fights we had in 2016 because life is a cyclical trash tornado.
Here's the interview:
ME: Just so people know that I went out and found the most avid Bernie supporter I could find--
THEM: Uh oh.
ME: --You worked on his campaign in 2016, right?
THEM: Not THE campaign, but a branch of it, yes.
ME: Great. I just wanted to let people know I didn't get someone who's like--iffy on Bernie. You're a big Bernie fan.
THEM: I am very much all in on Bernie.
ME: And do you hate Hillary Clinton?
THEM: (Laughs.) You're not wasting any time.
ME: I've got places to be.
THEM: I don't hate Hillary Clinton. I have...a lot of issues with her and the way she got the nomination.
ME: So you believe it was all a conspiracy?
THEM: I don't think it was a conspiracy. I think it was done in plain sight. Hillary Clinton was the chosen one. Everyone got out of her way and there was never going to be any support for Bernie as the candidate.
ME: Do you think that's happening again?
THEM: Uh. I think the coverage of his heart attack has been unfair.
ME: You think covering a candidate's health is fair game?
THEM: I--Do you?
ME: See, you know what I'm going to say because we're friends.
THEM: I do.
ME: I think that we could all die any second regardless of how healthy we are or our age, so no, I don't think it's fair actually. I don't think it's anybody's business unless you're completely deranged like the President is, but a heart attack should be off-limits. It's not going to impact your ability to do your job, and that's why we have a Vice-President were it to come to that.
THEM: Thank you.
ME: That was our first 'I'll meet you halfway' of this interview.
THEM: Will there be more?
ME: Only one way to find out. Where do you stand on Tulsi?
THEM: (Big sigh.)
ME: That says it all.
THEM: (Laughs.) Tulsi is an issue that--You put up that video where you kind of ranted about her and people who are going to the mat to defend her--
ME: Yes.
THEM: I am not going to the mat for Tulsi Gabbard. It's not worth it.
ME: Do you believe she's an asset like she's been accused of being?
THEM: I think that people are thinking of the word asset in very limited ways. You don't have to be having secret meetings with Putin like Donald Trump did to be an asset. You can be an unwilling or--or an asset who's being used and manipulated. There's a whole movie about it. It's called The Manchurian Candidate.
ME: I love that movie. Angela Lansbury is in it.
THEM: I think that Russia is trying new tactics to create in-fighting within the Democratic party and the progressive base and finding someone they can use to create division is going to be in their best interest. Now, do I think the person they settled on was Tulsi Gabbard? I think that would be pretty dumb of them.
ME: Why?
THEM: Because not that many people like her and she wasn't polling very high. Honestly, Bernie would be a much better option, but I think he's demonstrated that he wants the President out and even when he lost the nomination last time, he supported Hillary Clinton.
ME: So why didn't all of his supporters?
THEM: Uh--This is where we talk about the supporters you're not fond of.
ME: And I'm not saying you're one of them.
THEM: I hope not. (Laughs.) I hope I'm not.
ME: No, you seem pretty reasonable.
THEM: I--I admit that I have seen some things said by people claiming to be Bernie supporters--and I say claiming because they could have been Russian robots, who knows--that really unsettled me. And I think the campaign is not pushing back hard enough--if at all--against those people. That's where I'll meet you halfway.
ME: Why aren't they pushing back?
THEM: When Bernie turned around and supported Hillary--which was the right thing to do, by the way--there were people who turned on him with real vitriol. With real animosity. I don't think people understand the level of, uh, aggression that he, himself, was met with when he didn't just run as a third party candidate. People were mad.
ME: So are those people real Bernie supporters or are they just anarchists who see Bernie as someone they can get behind because he's talking about a revolution?
THEM: There's something in what you just said there that's key--Bernie does not want anarchy, right? He does want a brand new system. But he still wants a system. Just a better system. And so, I look at these guys, mostly guys, who are Bernie or Bust, and I'm going--I think if Bernie won, it wouldn't be too long until you were very disappointed in the outcome. Even if Bernie got everything he wanted.
ME: Do you think they're just not that familiar with his policies?
THEM: I think they're the guys in high school who loved a band until it had a hit single and then would say it sold out.
ME: So they're hipsters?
THEM: I like calling them anarchists. I think that's very appropriate.
ME: But not all of them would say that.
THEM: No, they wouldn't. But--look, I've had the privilege of meeting Senator Sanders and members of his team on multiple occasions, and I know his record, and I know what he stands for, and calling women the "c" word on Twitter is not it.
ME: And you're upset that he doesn't come out against that?
THEM: He rightfully feels--I would imagine--that he doesn't have to, because it isn't this huge part of his base, right? It's just the part making the most noise. And you don't want to give that attention.
ME: But you also just admitted--What did you say? You think he's going to get threatened if he tells that fringe element of his base to knock it off?
THEM: I think they'd abandon him.
ME: Wouldn't that be a good thing?
THEM: I think...You know, most political candidates will take help wherever they can get it. Something we learned these past few years with the Russia investigation, right? It's kind of gross, but--every vote counts. If you've got someone who's a little, uh, extreme, but they're in your corner, as long as they're not hurting people--
ME: But attacking people online could be--
THEM: Yeah, I'm not--this isn't a defense of that. I'm just saying--and I would like the campaign to be more forceful about it. That is true. I think that needs to happen. I know people who gone over to Senator Warren because they just couldn't take the energy that was coming from the Bernie or Bust people.
ME: I think the attacks on Elizabeth Warren--
THEM: It doesn't make any sense. I mean, it does, in the sense that they're very much aligned politically, and, you know, I wouldn't say she's a perfect candidate--
ME: Do you think Bernie is?
THEM: I think he's the best candidate right now. Yes, I do.
ME: What are your reservations about Elizabeth Warren?
THEM: Aside from the fact that all her big positions were Bernie's first?
ME: But isn't that unfair? To say--I like this person because they believe this. And then a politician listens and goes, Okay, well then I'll give you that if that's what you want, and then you turn around and say, Now you're copying them?
THEM: It's that I don't know if she believes everything she says she believes/
ME: See, I don't need her to. I just need her to act on it once she's elected--if she's elected.
THEM: But don't you doubt someone's willingness to act if they don't feel passionately enough about it? Say what you want about President Obama, but it's pretty clear that he felt very strongly about healthcare, because he risked everything for that, knowing, eventually, that he wasn't even going to get exactly what it was he wanted.
ME: I agree with you and Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren that we should be swinging for the bleachers, because I don't trust the moderates to not go right back to the President when the time comes, so I think we need to expand and excite the progressive voters.
THEM: Oh listen to you.
ME: But I also think attacking Elizabeth Warren at this point is not a good look. Because it comes across as--We're going after her because she's doing well. Otherwise, why would Sanders supporters be attacking people who feel drastically different from the way he feels?
THEM: That's a good point, and I think you're right, but look, that's the game. There's no point attacking Cory Booker. Cory Booker is not going to be the nominee. The campaigns know that and the voters know that.
ME: I think even Cory Booker knows it.
THEM: I'm sure he does.
ME: Back to Gabbard--what did you think of Bernie essentially coming to her defense on Twitter?
THEM: I think the way he worded the defense was...okay. Um. I would not have defended her at all, to be honest. I don't think it was necessary, and I think it was sticking your neck out for someone who's on Fox News every night, which doesn't really make much sense to me. I think that was a mistake.
ME: You think his defending her was a mistake?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Could he have said nothing?
THEM: (Sigh.) I'm not sure. So...Reflecting on that...I would have maybe tried to find a way to not hang her out to dry, but not question what many people feel is some...really damning evidence against her.
ME: So you don't think that's some big conspiracy?
THEM: I think if you know anything about the way Russia works--and I've spent quite a lot of time--I know this is anonymous, but you know my background--
ME: I do.
THEM: Okay, then you know I know what I'm talking about. And, look, I'm not a Hillary Clinton fan by any stretch of the imagination, but she would not be inserting herself in this way for no reason. She's not dumb. She has nothing to gain from attacking Tulsi Gabbard. In fact, I would say Tulsi's gained more from those attacks than anybody. She was all but irrelevant until that happened.
ME: So you do think she's a shady lady?
THEM: That's your favorite name for her.
ME: It is. She's a shady lady.
THEM: I think--I wouldn't trust her. This idea that--She served her country. She did. So do lots of people. Not all of them are--This is anonymous, right?
ME: You know--
THEM: I'm just checking, because I'm about to--
ME: I know what you're going to say.
THEM: Not all people who serve their country are saints. There. That's a good way of putting it. She shouldn't be hiding behind that and that shouldn't be the reason we all have to refrain from pointing out some really troubling things about her and her campaign.
ME: Have you ever confronted another Bernie supporter when you see them going after someone in a way you think is uncalled for?
THEM: Yes.
ME: And what happened?
THEM: Sometimes there's this shock that I'm not just letting them go to town on whoever they want. I've been called a traitor. I've been ganged up on. They believe there is one right way to support Bernie Sanders and if you're not a true believer, they have no use for you.
ME: Doesn't that make them seem a lot like Trump supporters?
THEM: It does. I've pointed that out to some colleagues. It's not good. But some people think it's valuable to have foot soldiers. Trump does. I don't know if he's entirely wrong about that. I think it turns people off, but when you're asking the people voting for you to go door-to-door? I've tried getting people to do that. It's not easy. Someone who is only mildly excited about your campaign is not going to do it. So in some ways you need those people.
ME: What do you say to people who say they won't vote for anybody but Bernie?
THEM: I tell them that's a very privileged position to take, and it's one that we're seeing the effects of to this day.
ME: Do you think they care?
THEM: No, because--Look, if Hillary Clinton had won the Presidency, but Congress stayed the way it is now, we would not have the Resistance we have. A lot of people would still be asleep. I'm not saying we wouldn't be better off, because we would be, but we'd also be letting a lot of terrible stuff continue to happen that was happening all along. Some people--I think--voted for Trump, because to them, it was a way of setting off an alarm. Whether we put this guy in the White House or not, there are clones of him all over the country--in state houses and state legislatures and governors' mansions--and I'm not sure anybody would have cared very much if there weren't this high-profile stand-in for all those people occupying the highest office in the land.
ME: Will you vote for Joe Biden if it's Joe Biden?
(Pause.)
THEM: Yes, but I'll be very upset.
ME: Same.
THEM: But where I'm at is--we need the Senate back. We have to get it back. If you have Congress, you can make whatever happens in the White House--you can really put a lot of it in check. But without the Senate--
ME: It's feeling more and more like you need it all. Like, whatever part we don't have feels like the most important part.
THEM: Because every part is designed to check the other parts. But that's with the assumption that all the parts can work together and only check each other in rare situations. Because that's happening all the time now, you need to run up the board in all three branches to get anything done.
ME: So you're saying things are bad.
THEM: Things are very bad.
ME: Do you think the party can ever unite the way the Conservatives do?
THEM: We don't want to be like the Conservatives. It's not a badge of honor that they think with one mind. It's not a compliment to them when people say they fall in line.
ME: But first and foremost you have to win elections.
THEM: And you have to win them with a clear mandate, because otherwise, what DOES force the person who gets in to do what they said they were going to do?
ME: It just feels so much harder for us than it is for them.
THEM: I'm sure they'd say the same thing about us.
ME: Before we finish up, I just wanted to mention something you told me about when you started seeing the more disturbing Bernie supporter stuff--
THEM: Right, so--for awhile, I wasn't seeing any of it, and I really thought my friends who were Clinton supporters were exaggerating. Then, one of them sent me an exchange they were having on their profile, and, uh, I was shocked, because this is a friend I have starred on Facebook, like, why wasn't this in my Newsfeed? It's this big argument--that stuff always pops up, right?
ME: But it wasn't there?
THEM: It wasn't there. All I ever saw where Hillary supporters attacking Bernie, not the other way around, which made me attack Hillary more. Until I hopped in that argument, and defended my friend, who was being called names and just really ugly stuff going on, and then [my Newsfeed] switched from that day on. I started seeing the other side of it.
ME: Do you think the algorithm thought you were a Clinton supporter after that?
THEM: Maybe, but I just found the whole thing really strange and, uh, interesting as well.
ME: That's one word for it.
THEM: It's really two words.
ME: Strange and interesting.
THEM: And terrifying.
ME: There we go. That's the word I was hoping you'd use.
Them is currently working to get Bernie Sanders elected President.
Here's the interview:
ME: Just so people know that I went out and found the most avid Bernie supporter I could find--
THEM: Uh oh.
ME: --You worked on his campaign in 2016, right?
THEM: Not THE campaign, but a branch of it, yes.
ME: Great. I just wanted to let people know I didn't get someone who's like--iffy on Bernie. You're a big Bernie fan.
THEM: I am very much all in on Bernie.
ME: And do you hate Hillary Clinton?
THEM: (Laughs.) You're not wasting any time.
ME: I've got places to be.
THEM: I don't hate Hillary Clinton. I have...a lot of issues with her and the way she got the nomination.
ME: So you believe it was all a conspiracy?
THEM: I don't think it was a conspiracy. I think it was done in plain sight. Hillary Clinton was the chosen one. Everyone got out of her way and there was never going to be any support for Bernie as the candidate.
ME: Do you think that's happening again?
THEM: Uh. I think the coverage of his heart attack has been unfair.
ME: You think covering a candidate's health is fair game?
THEM: I--Do you?
ME: See, you know what I'm going to say because we're friends.
THEM: I do.
ME: I think that we could all die any second regardless of how healthy we are or our age, so no, I don't think it's fair actually. I don't think it's anybody's business unless you're completely deranged like the President is, but a heart attack should be off-limits. It's not going to impact your ability to do your job, and that's why we have a Vice-President were it to come to that.
THEM: Thank you.
ME: That was our first 'I'll meet you halfway' of this interview.
THEM: Will there be more?
ME: Only one way to find out. Where do you stand on Tulsi?
THEM: (Big sigh.)
ME: That says it all.
THEM: (Laughs.) Tulsi is an issue that--You put up that video where you kind of ranted about her and people who are going to the mat to defend her--
ME: Yes.
THEM: I am not going to the mat for Tulsi Gabbard. It's not worth it.
ME: Do you believe she's an asset like she's been accused of being?
THEM: I think that people are thinking of the word asset in very limited ways. You don't have to be having secret meetings with Putin like Donald Trump did to be an asset. You can be an unwilling or--or an asset who's being used and manipulated. There's a whole movie about it. It's called The Manchurian Candidate.
ME: I love that movie. Angela Lansbury is in it.
THEM: I think that Russia is trying new tactics to create in-fighting within the Democratic party and the progressive base and finding someone they can use to create division is going to be in their best interest. Now, do I think the person they settled on was Tulsi Gabbard? I think that would be pretty dumb of them.
ME: Why?
THEM: Because not that many people like her and she wasn't polling very high. Honestly, Bernie would be a much better option, but I think he's demonstrated that he wants the President out and even when he lost the nomination last time, he supported Hillary Clinton.
ME: So why didn't all of his supporters?
THEM: Uh--This is where we talk about the supporters you're not fond of.
ME: And I'm not saying you're one of them.
THEM: I hope not. (Laughs.) I hope I'm not.
ME: No, you seem pretty reasonable.
THEM: I--I admit that I have seen some things said by people claiming to be Bernie supporters--and I say claiming because they could have been Russian robots, who knows--that really unsettled me. And I think the campaign is not pushing back hard enough--if at all--against those people. That's where I'll meet you halfway.
ME: Why aren't they pushing back?
THEM: When Bernie turned around and supported Hillary--which was the right thing to do, by the way--there were people who turned on him with real vitriol. With real animosity. I don't think people understand the level of, uh, aggression that he, himself, was met with when he didn't just run as a third party candidate. People were mad.
ME: So are those people real Bernie supporters or are they just anarchists who see Bernie as someone they can get behind because he's talking about a revolution?
THEM: There's something in what you just said there that's key--Bernie does not want anarchy, right? He does want a brand new system. But he still wants a system. Just a better system. And so, I look at these guys, mostly guys, who are Bernie or Bust, and I'm going--I think if Bernie won, it wouldn't be too long until you were very disappointed in the outcome. Even if Bernie got everything he wanted.
ME: Do you think they're just not that familiar with his policies?
THEM: I think they're the guys in high school who loved a band until it had a hit single and then would say it sold out.
ME: So they're hipsters?
THEM: I like calling them anarchists. I think that's very appropriate.
ME: But not all of them would say that.
THEM: No, they wouldn't. But--look, I've had the privilege of meeting Senator Sanders and members of his team on multiple occasions, and I know his record, and I know what he stands for, and calling women the "c" word on Twitter is not it.
ME: And you're upset that he doesn't come out against that?
THEM: He rightfully feels--I would imagine--that he doesn't have to, because it isn't this huge part of his base, right? It's just the part making the most noise. And you don't want to give that attention.
ME: But you also just admitted--What did you say? You think he's going to get threatened if he tells that fringe element of his base to knock it off?
THEM: I think they'd abandon him.
ME: Wouldn't that be a good thing?
THEM: I think...You know, most political candidates will take help wherever they can get it. Something we learned these past few years with the Russia investigation, right? It's kind of gross, but--every vote counts. If you've got someone who's a little, uh, extreme, but they're in your corner, as long as they're not hurting people--
ME: But attacking people online could be--
THEM: Yeah, I'm not--this isn't a defense of that. I'm just saying--and I would like the campaign to be more forceful about it. That is true. I think that needs to happen. I know people who gone over to Senator Warren because they just couldn't take the energy that was coming from the Bernie or Bust people.
ME: I think the attacks on Elizabeth Warren--
THEM: It doesn't make any sense. I mean, it does, in the sense that they're very much aligned politically, and, you know, I wouldn't say she's a perfect candidate--
ME: Do you think Bernie is?
THEM: I think he's the best candidate right now. Yes, I do.
ME: What are your reservations about Elizabeth Warren?
THEM: Aside from the fact that all her big positions were Bernie's first?
ME: But isn't that unfair? To say--I like this person because they believe this. And then a politician listens and goes, Okay, well then I'll give you that if that's what you want, and then you turn around and say, Now you're copying them?
THEM: It's that I don't know if she believes everything she says she believes/
ME: See, I don't need her to. I just need her to act on it once she's elected--if she's elected.
THEM: But don't you doubt someone's willingness to act if they don't feel passionately enough about it? Say what you want about President Obama, but it's pretty clear that he felt very strongly about healthcare, because he risked everything for that, knowing, eventually, that he wasn't even going to get exactly what it was he wanted.
ME: I agree with you and Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren that we should be swinging for the bleachers, because I don't trust the moderates to not go right back to the President when the time comes, so I think we need to expand and excite the progressive voters.
THEM: Oh listen to you.
ME: But I also think attacking Elizabeth Warren at this point is not a good look. Because it comes across as--We're going after her because she's doing well. Otherwise, why would Sanders supporters be attacking people who feel drastically different from the way he feels?
THEM: That's a good point, and I think you're right, but look, that's the game. There's no point attacking Cory Booker. Cory Booker is not going to be the nominee. The campaigns know that and the voters know that.
ME: I think even Cory Booker knows it.
THEM: I'm sure he does.
ME: Back to Gabbard--what did you think of Bernie essentially coming to her defense on Twitter?
THEM: I think the way he worded the defense was...okay. Um. I would not have defended her at all, to be honest. I don't think it was necessary, and I think it was sticking your neck out for someone who's on Fox News every night, which doesn't really make much sense to me. I think that was a mistake.
ME: You think his defending her was a mistake?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Could he have said nothing?
THEM: (Sigh.) I'm not sure. So...Reflecting on that...I would have maybe tried to find a way to not hang her out to dry, but not question what many people feel is some...really damning evidence against her.
ME: So you don't think that's some big conspiracy?
THEM: I think if you know anything about the way Russia works--and I've spent quite a lot of time--I know this is anonymous, but you know my background--
ME: I do.
THEM: Okay, then you know I know what I'm talking about. And, look, I'm not a Hillary Clinton fan by any stretch of the imagination, but she would not be inserting herself in this way for no reason. She's not dumb. She has nothing to gain from attacking Tulsi Gabbard. In fact, I would say Tulsi's gained more from those attacks than anybody. She was all but irrelevant until that happened.
ME: So you do think she's a shady lady?
THEM: That's your favorite name for her.
ME: It is. She's a shady lady.
THEM: I think--I wouldn't trust her. This idea that--She served her country. She did. So do lots of people. Not all of them are--This is anonymous, right?
ME: You know--
THEM: I'm just checking, because I'm about to--
ME: I know what you're going to say.
THEM: Not all people who serve their country are saints. There. That's a good way of putting it. She shouldn't be hiding behind that and that shouldn't be the reason we all have to refrain from pointing out some really troubling things about her and her campaign.
ME: Have you ever confronted another Bernie supporter when you see them going after someone in a way you think is uncalled for?
THEM: Yes.
ME: And what happened?
THEM: Sometimes there's this shock that I'm not just letting them go to town on whoever they want. I've been called a traitor. I've been ganged up on. They believe there is one right way to support Bernie Sanders and if you're not a true believer, they have no use for you.
ME: Doesn't that make them seem a lot like Trump supporters?
THEM: It does. I've pointed that out to some colleagues. It's not good. But some people think it's valuable to have foot soldiers. Trump does. I don't know if he's entirely wrong about that. I think it turns people off, but when you're asking the people voting for you to go door-to-door? I've tried getting people to do that. It's not easy. Someone who is only mildly excited about your campaign is not going to do it. So in some ways you need those people.
ME: What do you say to people who say they won't vote for anybody but Bernie?
THEM: I tell them that's a very privileged position to take, and it's one that we're seeing the effects of to this day.
ME: Do you think they care?
THEM: No, because--Look, if Hillary Clinton had won the Presidency, but Congress stayed the way it is now, we would not have the Resistance we have. A lot of people would still be asleep. I'm not saying we wouldn't be better off, because we would be, but we'd also be letting a lot of terrible stuff continue to happen that was happening all along. Some people--I think--voted for Trump, because to them, it was a way of setting off an alarm. Whether we put this guy in the White House or not, there are clones of him all over the country--in state houses and state legislatures and governors' mansions--and I'm not sure anybody would have cared very much if there weren't this high-profile stand-in for all those people occupying the highest office in the land.
ME: Will you vote for Joe Biden if it's Joe Biden?
(Pause.)
THEM: Yes, but I'll be very upset.
ME: Same.
THEM: But where I'm at is--we need the Senate back. We have to get it back. If you have Congress, you can make whatever happens in the White House--you can really put a lot of it in check. But without the Senate--
ME: It's feeling more and more like you need it all. Like, whatever part we don't have feels like the most important part.
THEM: Because every part is designed to check the other parts. But that's with the assumption that all the parts can work together and only check each other in rare situations. Because that's happening all the time now, you need to run up the board in all three branches to get anything done.
ME: So you're saying things are bad.
THEM: Things are very bad.
ME: Do you think the party can ever unite the way the Conservatives do?
THEM: We don't want to be like the Conservatives. It's not a badge of honor that they think with one mind. It's not a compliment to them when people say they fall in line.
ME: But first and foremost you have to win elections.
THEM: And you have to win them with a clear mandate, because otherwise, what DOES force the person who gets in to do what they said they were going to do?
ME: It just feels so much harder for us than it is for them.
THEM: I'm sure they'd say the same thing about us.
ME: Before we finish up, I just wanted to mention something you told me about when you started seeing the more disturbing Bernie supporter stuff--
THEM: Right, so--for awhile, I wasn't seeing any of it, and I really thought my friends who were Clinton supporters were exaggerating. Then, one of them sent me an exchange they were having on their profile, and, uh, I was shocked, because this is a friend I have starred on Facebook, like, why wasn't this in my Newsfeed? It's this big argument--that stuff always pops up, right?
ME: But it wasn't there?
THEM: It wasn't there. All I ever saw where Hillary supporters attacking Bernie, not the other way around, which made me attack Hillary more. Until I hopped in that argument, and defended my friend, who was being called names and just really ugly stuff going on, and then [my Newsfeed] switched from that day on. I started seeing the other side of it.
ME: Do you think the algorithm thought you were a Clinton supporter after that?
THEM: Maybe, but I just found the whole thing really strange and, uh, interesting as well.
ME: That's one word for it.
THEM: It's really two words.
ME: Strange and interesting.
THEM: And terrifying.
ME: There we go. That's the word I was hoping you'd use.
Them is currently working to get Bernie Sanders elected President.
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