In January, I wrote a piece about a dead guy.
You can read it here: https://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2020/01/theater-and-dead-guy.html
At the end of that interview, I promised to try and get a plaque removed with the dead guy's name on it. Since then, I've been in contact with people at the theater this dead guy used to work at, and a week ago, they agreed to let me speak with someone on their board.
Here's the interview:
ME: So you're who I'm making my pitch to?
THEM: You want to remove the plaque.
ME: I do. Well, I want you to remove the plaque.
THEM: I think you're going to have a hard time convincing us to do that.
ME: You sound amused by all this though.
THEM: I--When I read your interview, I was very surprised to hear a lot of that information.
ME: About [Name of Dead Guy]?
THEM: Yes.
ME: You didn't know any of that?
THEM: I knew that he was not everybody's cup of tea. I didn't know that there was a feeling in the community that he was preying on people, no. I did not know that.
ME: How long had you known him before he passed away?
THEM: Oh god, um--Years. Since I moved to [Name of City].
ME: Did you get along with him?
THEM: I did.
ME: Did any of what was said about grooming people and then discarding them--
THEM: I don't think it was grooming.
ME: Okay.
THEM: Directors have favorites. He had his favorites and then his favorites would change. That happens everywhere. I don't think it's fair. I'm not saying it's fair, but, uh, I don't think it rises to the level of saying 'grooming' or--
ME: But you said 'preying on people' earlier--
THEM: That's what's now being said and it's very distressing to me personally, because I--I personally did not see it.
ME: Do you believe that it happened?
THEM: Uh. Yes.
ME: You hesitated there.
THEM: I feel very uncomfortable talking about, um--I'm sorry.
ME: It's okay.
THEM: Talking about this person who was a friend. Who is now gone. Who can't defend himself--
ME: But, okay, from what I've gathered, and I've been talking to a lot of people in your community--
THEM: Yes.
ME: It sounds like coming out against him when he was alive would not have been a smart thing to do. I mean, it's never an easy thing to do no matter what, but depending on the person, it can actually end any chance you have of getting work in a given community.
THEM: Yes.
ME: So do you see why maybe now that he's gone--
THEM: Again, that's unfair. I agree that it's unfair. How that works. Some people have power. Some have less power. But he should still be able to respond to a lot of this, and the people coming out and saying it need to realize that some of us are hearing it for the very first time, and we're not--We're not disbelieving them just because right away we're not saying 'I believe you.' That's not what that means. We just need to process this. We're still processing his death and now we're processing this information and it's a lot to...to take in all at once.
ME: But you named the theater after him pretty quick.
(Silence.)
THEM: That was actually something we talked about for a long time.
ME: He hasn't even been dead a year.
THEM: People wanted to--it was part of a memorial for him.
ME: You can't have a memorial for someone without naming a theater after them?
THEM: You have to understand what this person did for our theater, for our--
ME: Listen, all these other serious problems aside, I was going to make a pitch to you based solely on how dumb I find it when people name things after other people.
THEM: (Laughs.) That is a different way to argue it.
ME: Hear me out, if you look at who really does the most work at any theater, it's usually not the people who are going to get plaques with their names on them when they die, right? Like, no stage manager has ever gotten a plaque that I know of. No GM is ever going to have a theater named after them. Usually that goes to big donors and--
THEM: And it's a way to solicit big donations.
ME: --But look at me. I'm a chump who has all these people behind him making him look good, and those people don't get a tenth of the credit they deserve, and I'm the one most likely to get something named after him at my theater because I founded the theater, but there would be no theater if it weren't for the people--
THEM: But that's just how it works, Kevin. You know that.
ME: It's just strange to me, because theater is this thing we agree is so transient and ethereal but then we name these buildings after people and you're going to keep running into trouble, because nobody is perfect and the minute you give that amount of attention to somebody--
THEM: But why is it a bad thing to celebrate someone's accomplishments? We are not saying he was perfect. We know he wasn't perfect. We are talking about what he did--and he did do a lot, and I agree with you about who really keeps theaters running--I agree, and those people should be celebrated--
ME: So celebrate them. You must have a stage manager you can name the theater after.
THEM: He meant a lot to a lot of people. Not everyone.
ME: You're dodging my point.
THEM: So you're being serious?
ME: I'm being very serious.
THEM: Would you name your theater after a stage manager?
ME: I would name my first born after a stage manager. Are you kidding me?
THEM: You're talking about--I didn't want to get into paradigm shifts, Kevin.
ME: Did you want to get into the other stuff? Because we can get into the other stuff.
THEM: I wanted to speak with you, because I wanted to get it out there that we support these people--we are not saying they are wrong--
ME: But you're not going to do anything about it.
THEM: What can we do?
ME: Take down the plaque.
THEM: And then we'll hear it from the other side--
ME: But the other side is wrong. The other side--
THEM: Kevin--
ME: But wait--the other side can let this man--who they loved so much--live on in their memory. They don't lose anything by you taking down that plaque and going back to the theater's original name. The people who were hurt? They have to see that plaque every time they go to your theater. This is not lose-lose.
THEM: We feel it is lose-lose.
ME: I respect the fact that you're going to have to take some heat--
THEM: I am going to have to have this person's family tell me that we are denying our own history.
ME: You're not denying it. I'm not asking you to pretend he never existed, but maybe you can meet with these people who are upset, listen to what they have to say, and talk about how you can make sure it won't happen again.
THEM: We can't change the way things are done in terms of fairness, Kevin. If a director wants to give somebody five or six lead roles and then never work with them again, we can't force them to do it another way. That's their choice.
ME: But what is--
THEM: In the real world--okay?--In the real world, you can work for a company and do a good job for twenty years and then get laid off. It sounds very entitled to say--
ME: Careful with the word entitled.
THEM: It does though. It sounds very entitled to say, 'I had all these lead roles and I did well and I should keep getting lead roles forever.' It doesn't work that way.
ME: But you don't think there was something more insidious going on there?
THEM: None of these people are saying he had inappropriate relationships with them.
ME: No, they're saying he didn't have illegal relationships with them, but inappropriate is--
THEM: This man was not a Confederate soldier, all right? We are not the only theater that has plaques in their lobby honoring people. Are you litigating with all those theaters as well?
ME: I am happy to argue that every plaque in every theater should come down.
THEM: Good luck.
ME: Do you think it's at all dangerous to be glorifying someone unconditionally after they die?
THEM: That's not what we did.
ME: How much money did the theater raise after he died?
THEM: Excuse me?
ME: I think it's worth mentioning that you had four different memorial events and all of them were fundraisers for the theater.
THEM: With his family's blessing. They knew the theater meant a lot to him.
ME: But obviously if there were questions about his character, you would have lost out on a of money.
THEM: We weren't celebrating his life to make money, Kevin.
ME: But would the theater have been at risk if he was viewed in a negative light?
THEM: He was viewed in a negative light when he was alive. This was us making an--trying to rectify that.
ME: So you were denying history in a way.
THEM: We are allowed to see him the way we want to see him and others are allowed to do the same and if walking past a plaque in our lobby is difficult for them, they do not have to come see our shows or walk into our theater at all.
ME: That sounds very cold.
THEM: I'm saying the facts are--We are not taking down the plaque. We are sympathetic to the people who have been hurt. We do not want to hurt them any further. If you're saying--
ME: But you're going to--You can't have it both ways. You can't have sympathy but no action. You can't say 'Well we're at a point where disbelieving victims is a bad look, but we also don't have the guts to disavow this guy or to do something about him when he was alive.'
THEM: There was nothing to do.
ME: Nothing?
THEM: Nothing.
ME: Did anybody ever ask him about his casting practices?
THEM: I don't know.
ME: You never did?
THEM: No.
ME: Do you think he was a nice person?
(Silence.)
THEM: I'm not going to use this time to say anything about him as a person because I find that to be--
ME: Would it--Theoretically--would he need to be a nice person to put up that plaque?
(Silence.)
THEM: I don't think that would need to be a condition of doing that, no.
ME: So you think it's okay to honor bad people who've made--
THEM: I didn't say--
ME: Not him specifically, but--Is it okay to honor bad people who have made positive contributions to society?
THEM: Who is a bad person? Who decides who's a bad person?
ME: I don't know. I really don't. But that's why I'm saying--Maybe better to just not go down the road of hero worship at all. People live, they die, thanks for all the fish, and be done with it.
THEM: This was something that the people who loved him felt very strongly about.
ME: Then let them pay for a bench in the park with his name on it. But he did not solely build that theater, did he? It just seems very--
THEM: Nobody is saying that. Nobody is saying he was the only one--
ME: But that's sort of what you're saying by--
THEM: No. No, we're not.
ME: If you brought this up for a vote--
THEM: It's already been voted on.
ME: To name the theater after--
THEM: Yes.
ME: But that was before the interview came out.
THEM: We're not having another vote.
ME: What would happen if you called it for a vote?
THEM: We will not be having another vote.
ME: But if you did--
THEM: I believe it would be voted down.
ME: Would you be willing to--
THEM: No.
ME: So I have to find someone other than you to--
THEM: (Laughs.) You can--you're welcome to try.
ME: I just think it's inflicting unnecessary pain onto people to--
THEM: People need to learn to deal with pain. I have pain. I deal with it. You can't accommodate everyone. That's not possible.
ME: Are people who--Are the people who have spoken out--and I know a few more have--a lot more, actually--have since the interview--are those people welcome at the theater?
THEM: Everyone is welcome.
ME: Could they work at your theater?
THEM: Of course.
ME: But they're saying this thing--
THEM: If the name or the plaque means they feel they can't work with us, that's them saying that. I won't say that they can't work with us.
ME: But it's--
THEM: I have another call I have to make. Thank you for this. I appreciate hearing your thoughts.
ME: Okay, thank you.
THEM: Thank you.
Them is on the board of a theater that recently got a new name.
You can read it here: https://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2020/01/theater-and-dead-guy.html
At the end of that interview, I promised to try and get a plaque removed with the dead guy's name on it. Since then, I've been in contact with people at the theater this dead guy used to work at, and a week ago, they agreed to let me speak with someone on their board.
Here's the interview:
ME: So you're who I'm making my pitch to?
THEM: You want to remove the plaque.
ME: I do. Well, I want you to remove the plaque.
THEM: I think you're going to have a hard time convincing us to do that.
ME: You sound amused by all this though.
THEM: I--When I read your interview, I was very surprised to hear a lot of that information.
ME: About [Name of Dead Guy]?
THEM: Yes.
ME: You didn't know any of that?
THEM: I knew that he was not everybody's cup of tea. I didn't know that there was a feeling in the community that he was preying on people, no. I did not know that.
ME: How long had you known him before he passed away?
THEM: Oh god, um--Years. Since I moved to [Name of City].
ME: Did you get along with him?
THEM: I did.
ME: Did any of what was said about grooming people and then discarding them--
THEM: I don't think it was grooming.
ME: Okay.
THEM: Directors have favorites. He had his favorites and then his favorites would change. That happens everywhere. I don't think it's fair. I'm not saying it's fair, but, uh, I don't think it rises to the level of saying 'grooming' or--
ME: But you said 'preying on people' earlier--
THEM: That's what's now being said and it's very distressing to me personally, because I--I personally did not see it.
ME: Do you believe that it happened?
THEM: Uh. Yes.
ME: You hesitated there.
THEM: I feel very uncomfortable talking about, um--I'm sorry.
ME: It's okay.
THEM: Talking about this person who was a friend. Who is now gone. Who can't defend himself--
ME: But, okay, from what I've gathered, and I've been talking to a lot of people in your community--
THEM: Yes.
ME: It sounds like coming out against him when he was alive would not have been a smart thing to do. I mean, it's never an easy thing to do no matter what, but depending on the person, it can actually end any chance you have of getting work in a given community.
THEM: Yes.
ME: So do you see why maybe now that he's gone--
THEM: Again, that's unfair. I agree that it's unfair. How that works. Some people have power. Some have less power. But he should still be able to respond to a lot of this, and the people coming out and saying it need to realize that some of us are hearing it for the very first time, and we're not--We're not disbelieving them just because right away we're not saying 'I believe you.' That's not what that means. We just need to process this. We're still processing his death and now we're processing this information and it's a lot to...to take in all at once.
ME: But you named the theater after him pretty quick.
(Silence.)
THEM: That was actually something we talked about for a long time.
ME: He hasn't even been dead a year.
THEM: People wanted to--it was part of a memorial for him.
ME: You can't have a memorial for someone without naming a theater after them?
THEM: You have to understand what this person did for our theater, for our--
ME: Listen, all these other serious problems aside, I was going to make a pitch to you based solely on how dumb I find it when people name things after other people.
THEM: (Laughs.) That is a different way to argue it.
ME: Hear me out, if you look at who really does the most work at any theater, it's usually not the people who are going to get plaques with their names on them when they die, right? Like, no stage manager has ever gotten a plaque that I know of. No GM is ever going to have a theater named after them. Usually that goes to big donors and--
THEM: And it's a way to solicit big donations.
ME: --But look at me. I'm a chump who has all these people behind him making him look good, and those people don't get a tenth of the credit they deserve, and I'm the one most likely to get something named after him at my theater because I founded the theater, but there would be no theater if it weren't for the people--
THEM: But that's just how it works, Kevin. You know that.
ME: It's just strange to me, because theater is this thing we agree is so transient and ethereal but then we name these buildings after people and you're going to keep running into trouble, because nobody is perfect and the minute you give that amount of attention to somebody--
THEM: But why is it a bad thing to celebrate someone's accomplishments? We are not saying he was perfect. We know he wasn't perfect. We are talking about what he did--and he did do a lot, and I agree with you about who really keeps theaters running--I agree, and those people should be celebrated--
ME: So celebrate them. You must have a stage manager you can name the theater after.
THEM: He meant a lot to a lot of people. Not everyone.
ME: You're dodging my point.
THEM: So you're being serious?
ME: I'm being very serious.
THEM: Would you name your theater after a stage manager?
ME: I would name my first born after a stage manager. Are you kidding me?
THEM: You're talking about--I didn't want to get into paradigm shifts, Kevin.
ME: Did you want to get into the other stuff? Because we can get into the other stuff.
THEM: I wanted to speak with you, because I wanted to get it out there that we support these people--we are not saying they are wrong--
ME: But you're not going to do anything about it.
THEM: What can we do?
ME: Take down the plaque.
THEM: And then we'll hear it from the other side--
ME: But the other side is wrong. The other side--
THEM: Kevin--
ME: But wait--the other side can let this man--who they loved so much--live on in their memory. They don't lose anything by you taking down that plaque and going back to the theater's original name. The people who were hurt? They have to see that plaque every time they go to your theater. This is not lose-lose.
THEM: We feel it is lose-lose.
ME: I respect the fact that you're going to have to take some heat--
THEM: I am going to have to have this person's family tell me that we are denying our own history.
ME: You're not denying it. I'm not asking you to pretend he never existed, but maybe you can meet with these people who are upset, listen to what they have to say, and talk about how you can make sure it won't happen again.
THEM: We can't change the way things are done in terms of fairness, Kevin. If a director wants to give somebody five or six lead roles and then never work with them again, we can't force them to do it another way. That's their choice.
ME: But what is--
THEM: In the real world--okay?--In the real world, you can work for a company and do a good job for twenty years and then get laid off. It sounds very entitled to say--
ME: Careful with the word entitled.
THEM: It does though. It sounds very entitled to say, 'I had all these lead roles and I did well and I should keep getting lead roles forever.' It doesn't work that way.
ME: But you don't think there was something more insidious going on there?
THEM: None of these people are saying he had inappropriate relationships with them.
ME: No, they're saying he didn't have illegal relationships with them, but inappropriate is--
THEM: This man was not a Confederate soldier, all right? We are not the only theater that has plaques in their lobby honoring people. Are you litigating with all those theaters as well?
ME: I am happy to argue that every plaque in every theater should come down.
THEM: Good luck.
ME: Do you think it's at all dangerous to be glorifying someone unconditionally after they die?
THEM: That's not what we did.
ME: How much money did the theater raise after he died?
THEM: Excuse me?
ME: I think it's worth mentioning that you had four different memorial events and all of them were fundraisers for the theater.
THEM: With his family's blessing. They knew the theater meant a lot to him.
ME: But obviously if there were questions about his character, you would have lost out on a of money.
THEM: We weren't celebrating his life to make money, Kevin.
ME: But would the theater have been at risk if he was viewed in a negative light?
THEM: He was viewed in a negative light when he was alive. This was us making an--trying to rectify that.
ME: So you were denying history in a way.
THEM: We are allowed to see him the way we want to see him and others are allowed to do the same and if walking past a plaque in our lobby is difficult for them, they do not have to come see our shows or walk into our theater at all.
ME: That sounds very cold.
THEM: I'm saying the facts are--We are not taking down the plaque. We are sympathetic to the people who have been hurt. We do not want to hurt them any further. If you're saying--
ME: But you're going to--You can't have it both ways. You can't have sympathy but no action. You can't say 'Well we're at a point where disbelieving victims is a bad look, but we also don't have the guts to disavow this guy or to do something about him when he was alive.'
THEM: There was nothing to do.
ME: Nothing?
THEM: Nothing.
ME: Did anybody ever ask him about his casting practices?
THEM: I don't know.
ME: You never did?
THEM: No.
ME: Do you think he was a nice person?
(Silence.)
THEM: I'm not going to use this time to say anything about him as a person because I find that to be--
ME: Would it--Theoretically--would he need to be a nice person to put up that plaque?
(Silence.)
THEM: I don't think that would need to be a condition of doing that, no.
ME: So you think it's okay to honor bad people who've made--
THEM: I didn't say--
ME: Not him specifically, but--Is it okay to honor bad people who have made positive contributions to society?
THEM: Who is a bad person? Who decides who's a bad person?
ME: I don't know. I really don't. But that's why I'm saying--Maybe better to just not go down the road of hero worship at all. People live, they die, thanks for all the fish, and be done with it.
THEM: This was something that the people who loved him felt very strongly about.
ME: Then let them pay for a bench in the park with his name on it. But he did not solely build that theater, did he? It just seems very--
THEM: Nobody is saying that. Nobody is saying he was the only one--
ME: But that's sort of what you're saying by--
THEM: No. No, we're not.
ME: If you brought this up for a vote--
THEM: It's already been voted on.
ME: To name the theater after--
THEM: Yes.
ME: But that was before the interview came out.
THEM: We're not having another vote.
ME: What would happen if you called it for a vote?
THEM: We will not be having another vote.
ME: But if you did--
THEM: I believe it would be voted down.
ME: Would you be willing to--
THEM: No.
ME: So I have to find someone other than you to--
THEM: (Laughs.) You can--you're welcome to try.
ME: I just think it's inflicting unnecessary pain onto people to--
THEM: People need to learn to deal with pain. I have pain. I deal with it. You can't accommodate everyone. That's not possible.
ME: Are people who--Are the people who have spoken out--and I know a few more have--a lot more, actually--have since the interview--are those people welcome at the theater?
THEM: Everyone is welcome.
ME: Could they work at your theater?
THEM: Of course.
ME: But they're saying this thing--
THEM: If the name or the plaque means they feel they can't work with us, that's them saying that. I won't say that they can't work with us.
ME: But it's--
THEM: I have another call I have to make. Thank you for this. I appreciate hearing your thoughts.
ME: Okay, thank you.
THEM: Thank you.
Them is on the board of a theater that recently got a new name.
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