Today is a special interview for me, because I get to talk to one of my mentors about taking on a protege in the world of theater, and what that entails.
Here's the interview:
ME: I'm so excited we get to do this.
THEM: Are your readers going to be mad that you're not cancelling someone this week?
ME: Oh, there's always someone to cancel.
THEM: You were cancelling people before it was en vogue.
ME: See, you've known me for too long.
THEM: I know all the secrets.
ME: Maybe I'll get cancelled this week.
THEM: That would get you a lot of clicks.
ME: Honestly, as long as I get the clicks, who cares?
THEM: I don't know if I want to be called your mentor if this is how you think.
ME: (Laughs.) I have not done you proud.
THEM: No, I'm very proud of you. Very proud.
ME: I was lucky because for a long time, as a gay man, I felt like--like there were all these other subsections of the theater community who had their champions, but with me--
THEM: It's hard for young gay men to find that kind of relationship.
ME: Why do you think that is?
THEM: Uh, well--
ME: Do you not want to say it's hard because older gay guys are always trying to hook up with younger gay guys?
THEM: I do NOT want to say that, you're right.
ME: But it's a factor.
THEM: It is a factor, but you know, men can mentor women and women can mentor men and--
ME: But it seems like it is hard if you're a gay guy to have somebody kind of show you the ropes and I would look around and see women taking other women under their wing and--
THEM: Women also run into the issue of making other women feel like they're competing--
ME: That's everywhere though--with everyone.
THEM: I'm sure everybody feels uniquely disadvantaged when it comes to finding guidance.
ME: But you did a great job.
THEM: Thank you. Did?
ME: You're still doing a good job.
THEM: I was about to say--You called me last night for advice.
ME: At 3am. That's my favorite time to call.
THEM: [My husband] goes, 'There's Kevin having a crisis.'
ME: It's season selection time so my world is coming apart at the seams.
THEM: Do you have a season yet?
ME: I...think so.
THEM: You going to tell me what it is after the interview?
ME: You know what it is for the most part.
THEM: I didn't know if you had anything set in stone.
ME: Some stuff, but we're going to save that for another day.
THEM: Okay, I'm sorry.
ME: I have to keep you on track.
THEM: I'm not great with that.
ME: But you're a great mentor, and I would one day like to be a mentor, so I need your advice on how to give advice.
THEM: Do you think being a mentor is just giving advice?
ME: You tell me.
THEM: You tell me!
ME: (Laughs.) That's what I want to know--Do you think it's just being a sounding board?
THEM: It can be.
ME: And what if I...don't want to be that?
THEM: So what do you want?
ME: I feel like if I were to be a mentor, I would want to give advice and have people take it, because that's literally never happened to me in my life.
THEM: You weren't great at taking my advice when we--
ME: God no, I was terrible at it. I wanted to do exactly what I wanted to do. Nobody could talk me down.
THEM: That's a little much, but yes.
ME: But I wouldn't want to mentor me and you did.
THEM: I think I was able to help you steer you in the right direction a few times.
ME: Maybe I just thought I was the one doing guiding myself.
THEM: That's why I'm good at what I do.
ME: I just feel like I don't want to spend my time telling someone 'Do this' or 'Do that' if what they really want is to just have me tell them exactly what they want to hear.
THEM: So you want to give orders and have people obey them?
ME: Yes, but with their consent.
THEM: You sound like a dominatrix.
ME: I mean, I've spent so much of my life manipulating people without their consent, it would be great to just be able to do it openly for a change.
THEM: (Laughs.) I hope you're kidding.
ME: I am, but I'm not kidding about not wanting to just be a sounding board. I don't see the point of that.
THEM: That's okay. A mentorship is just like any other relationship. You define it based on what you're comfortable giving. It's just that unlike other relationships, there's an expectation that you're not going to get as much back. It's meant to be more selfless.
ME: What do you do if you're mentoring someone and you feel like it's not the relationship you want?
THEM: I would ask if we could redefine the terms.
ME: So first you need terms?
THEM: You always need terms.
ME: I'm writing this down.
THEM: Good.
ME: How do you know if someone is looking for a mentor or just, like I said, an enabler? Somebody to tell them what they want to hear?
THEM: I always think about how many questions somebody is asking me. I--I would encourage you to pursue being a mentor, because I think you have very specific insight that you can offer to people, but I would tell you to be conscious of people who talk a lot and don't ask any questions. Those are the people who just want to lay out their plan for you and have you pat them on the back for it, and you're right, you're probably not going to change the plan and even if you do, you're going to wind up upsetting them in the process.
ME: Right, sometimes I talk to younger people--
THEM: Younger than you.
ME: I'm almost forty.
THEM: I will reach through this phone and choke you.
ME: (Laughing.) I talk to, you know, people in their twenties, and everything they see--they love it. They love everything. Broadway musicals. Elementary school pageants. Dance recitals. Everything. They gush over it. And, you know, in some ways, that used to be me too, and then I started thinking more critically--
THEM: Because that's what's supposed to happen when you get older--
ME: But now I feel like one of those older people I used to hate when I was younger who--when I would say 'I really liked this play' they would go 'You did?' and they would break down how it was actually bad and I would feel stupid, but I wasn't, like, appreciative of that. I just resented them for making me feel stupid, so I don't want to be that person.
THEM: There's thinking critically and then there's being an a**hole, right? It sounds like you ran into some people who were a**holes, but when you and I would talk, I would point out things to you in shows that I didn't like and it didn't seem like you resented me for it.
ME: You kind of led me to those conclusions.
THEM: Yes.
ME: Which was very manipulative of you.
THEM: Turnabout is fair play, Kevin.
ME: I just don't want to be the constant black cloud raining all over everything, but when you have people coming to you who are just so excited about everything they see or hear about, it feels like 'Is something wrong with me that I'm not excited about this thing' or 'I think that's going to be bad but maybe I'm just a jerk?'
THEM: I think you're better off just owning what you like and not feeling bad about it, but trying not to make other people feel bad for what they like either.
ME: But it's exhausting with--this all goes back to me starting this series a year ago and talking about wanting to take a step back from theater--it's exhausting to deal with the dichotomy of living in the world we're living in where every movie or tv show that comes out gets ripped apart by people on my Newsfeed, but those same people see a play or a musical and it's 'Oh my god, my life was changed.'
THEM: It's because they need that play or that musical to be good, and they don't need the movie or the tv show to be good.
ME: Why do they need it?
THEM: Because they can engage with it in a way that they can't with those other things.
ME: You mean because they want to get cast at those places.
THEM: It might be that.
ME: That's not what we're talking about anyway.
THEM: We're talking about--Kevin, when you say 'mentor' what I hear is leader. You're talking about being a leader of a generation, and that is very trying at times. Having insight is two-fold and it is not as simple as everybody in the village lining up to get your wisdom, and even if it was that, that would be very trying too, so you have to think about what kind of leader it's possible for you to be, and not worry about what I have to say about what I think a leader is.
ME: Did you ever get frustrated with me?
THEM: I'm frustrated with you right now.
ME: (Laughs.) But you never told me you were.
THEM: I just told you.
ME: You know what I mean.
THEM: People are going to figure out their own s***, Kevin. It's very helpful to be the kind of person who says, 'While you figure it out, if you mess up, I'm here' but not everybody has the emotional energy to do that, and that's okay. You can't beat yourself up if you feel like you're not in a place to watch somebody fall on their a** over and over again.
ME: I guess what I'm struggling is what you talked about--how it's built in that you're getting less than you're giving, and so--It's like agreeing to be taken advantage of.
THEM: Hey, I met you when you were--how old were you?
ME: I would have been...twenty-three.
THEM: Okay. And you're how old now?
ME: I'll be thirty-six in July.
THEM: I was fifty when we met. I'm going to be sixty-three. I could not have taken you on at thirty-five or thirty-six. There was no way I could have done that. So you're probably just not ready to be in that kind of a position. I know you don't think of yourself as still being this young kid, but how old you are really relates to how old everyone around you is, and you're still--There's still a lot of things I think you need to do before you can worry about helping other people do their thing.
ME: I have to wait fourteen years?
THEM: Let's talk about this again in ten years.
ME: I like the questions thing. That's great advice.
THEM: Keep an eye on people who never ask you questions, because that's how they tell you they're not interested in what's going on with you or what you know or who you are.
ME: Such good advice.
THEM: Let's hope you take it.
Them has been my mentor for the past thirteen years.
Here's the interview:
ME: I'm so excited we get to do this.
THEM: Are your readers going to be mad that you're not cancelling someone this week?
ME: Oh, there's always someone to cancel.
THEM: You were cancelling people before it was en vogue.
ME: See, you've known me for too long.
THEM: I know all the secrets.
ME: Maybe I'll get cancelled this week.
THEM: That would get you a lot of clicks.
ME: Honestly, as long as I get the clicks, who cares?
THEM: I don't know if I want to be called your mentor if this is how you think.
ME: (Laughs.) I have not done you proud.
THEM: No, I'm very proud of you. Very proud.
ME: I was lucky because for a long time, as a gay man, I felt like--like there were all these other subsections of the theater community who had their champions, but with me--
THEM: It's hard for young gay men to find that kind of relationship.
ME: Why do you think that is?
THEM: Uh, well--
ME: Do you not want to say it's hard because older gay guys are always trying to hook up with younger gay guys?
THEM: I do NOT want to say that, you're right.
ME: But it's a factor.
THEM: It is a factor, but you know, men can mentor women and women can mentor men and--
ME: But it seems like it is hard if you're a gay guy to have somebody kind of show you the ropes and I would look around and see women taking other women under their wing and--
THEM: Women also run into the issue of making other women feel like they're competing--
ME: That's everywhere though--with everyone.
THEM: I'm sure everybody feels uniquely disadvantaged when it comes to finding guidance.
ME: But you did a great job.
THEM: Thank you. Did?
ME: You're still doing a good job.
THEM: I was about to say--You called me last night for advice.
ME: At 3am. That's my favorite time to call.
THEM: [My husband] goes, 'There's Kevin having a crisis.'
ME: It's season selection time so my world is coming apart at the seams.
THEM: Do you have a season yet?
ME: I...think so.
THEM: You going to tell me what it is after the interview?
ME: You know what it is for the most part.
THEM: I didn't know if you had anything set in stone.
ME: Some stuff, but we're going to save that for another day.
THEM: Okay, I'm sorry.
ME: I have to keep you on track.
THEM: I'm not great with that.
ME: But you're a great mentor, and I would one day like to be a mentor, so I need your advice on how to give advice.
THEM: Do you think being a mentor is just giving advice?
ME: You tell me.
THEM: You tell me!
ME: (Laughs.) That's what I want to know--Do you think it's just being a sounding board?
THEM: It can be.
ME: And what if I...don't want to be that?
THEM: So what do you want?
ME: I feel like if I were to be a mentor, I would want to give advice and have people take it, because that's literally never happened to me in my life.
THEM: You weren't great at taking my advice when we--
ME: God no, I was terrible at it. I wanted to do exactly what I wanted to do. Nobody could talk me down.
THEM: That's a little much, but yes.
ME: But I wouldn't want to mentor me and you did.
THEM: I think I was able to help you steer you in the right direction a few times.
ME: Maybe I just thought I was the one doing guiding myself.
THEM: That's why I'm good at what I do.
ME: I just feel like I don't want to spend my time telling someone 'Do this' or 'Do that' if what they really want is to just have me tell them exactly what they want to hear.
THEM: So you want to give orders and have people obey them?
ME: Yes, but with their consent.
THEM: You sound like a dominatrix.
ME: I mean, I've spent so much of my life manipulating people without their consent, it would be great to just be able to do it openly for a change.
THEM: (Laughs.) I hope you're kidding.
ME: I am, but I'm not kidding about not wanting to just be a sounding board. I don't see the point of that.
THEM: That's okay. A mentorship is just like any other relationship. You define it based on what you're comfortable giving. It's just that unlike other relationships, there's an expectation that you're not going to get as much back. It's meant to be more selfless.
ME: What do you do if you're mentoring someone and you feel like it's not the relationship you want?
THEM: I would ask if we could redefine the terms.
ME: So first you need terms?
THEM: You always need terms.
ME: I'm writing this down.
THEM: Good.
ME: How do you know if someone is looking for a mentor or just, like I said, an enabler? Somebody to tell them what they want to hear?
THEM: I always think about how many questions somebody is asking me. I--I would encourage you to pursue being a mentor, because I think you have very specific insight that you can offer to people, but I would tell you to be conscious of people who talk a lot and don't ask any questions. Those are the people who just want to lay out their plan for you and have you pat them on the back for it, and you're right, you're probably not going to change the plan and even if you do, you're going to wind up upsetting them in the process.
ME: Right, sometimes I talk to younger people--
THEM: Younger than you.
ME: I'm almost forty.
THEM: I will reach through this phone and choke you.
ME: (Laughing.) I talk to, you know, people in their twenties, and everything they see--they love it. They love everything. Broadway musicals. Elementary school pageants. Dance recitals. Everything. They gush over it. And, you know, in some ways, that used to be me too, and then I started thinking more critically--
THEM: Because that's what's supposed to happen when you get older--
ME: But now I feel like one of those older people I used to hate when I was younger who--when I would say 'I really liked this play' they would go 'You did?' and they would break down how it was actually bad and I would feel stupid, but I wasn't, like, appreciative of that. I just resented them for making me feel stupid, so I don't want to be that person.
THEM: There's thinking critically and then there's being an a**hole, right? It sounds like you ran into some people who were a**holes, but when you and I would talk, I would point out things to you in shows that I didn't like and it didn't seem like you resented me for it.
ME: You kind of led me to those conclusions.
THEM: Yes.
ME: Which was very manipulative of you.
THEM: Turnabout is fair play, Kevin.
ME: I just don't want to be the constant black cloud raining all over everything, but when you have people coming to you who are just so excited about everything they see or hear about, it feels like 'Is something wrong with me that I'm not excited about this thing' or 'I think that's going to be bad but maybe I'm just a jerk?'
THEM: I think you're better off just owning what you like and not feeling bad about it, but trying not to make other people feel bad for what they like either.
ME: But it's exhausting with--this all goes back to me starting this series a year ago and talking about wanting to take a step back from theater--it's exhausting to deal with the dichotomy of living in the world we're living in where every movie or tv show that comes out gets ripped apart by people on my Newsfeed, but those same people see a play or a musical and it's 'Oh my god, my life was changed.'
THEM: It's because they need that play or that musical to be good, and they don't need the movie or the tv show to be good.
ME: Why do they need it?
THEM: Because they can engage with it in a way that they can't with those other things.
ME: You mean because they want to get cast at those places.
THEM: It might be that.
ME: That's not what we're talking about anyway.
THEM: We're talking about--Kevin, when you say 'mentor' what I hear is leader. You're talking about being a leader of a generation, and that is very trying at times. Having insight is two-fold and it is not as simple as everybody in the village lining up to get your wisdom, and even if it was that, that would be very trying too, so you have to think about what kind of leader it's possible for you to be, and not worry about what I have to say about what I think a leader is.
ME: Did you ever get frustrated with me?
THEM: I'm frustrated with you right now.
ME: (Laughs.) But you never told me you were.
THEM: I just told you.
ME: You know what I mean.
THEM: People are going to figure out their own s***, Kevin. It's very helpful to be the kind of person who says, 'While you figure it out, if you mess up, I'm here' but not everybody has the emotional energy to do that, and that's okay. You can't beat yourself up if you feel like you're not in a place to watch somebody fall on their a** over and over again.
ME: I guess what I'm struggling is what you talked about--how it's built in that you're getting less than you're giving, and so--It's like agreeing to be taken advantage of.
THEM: Hey, I met you when you were--how old were you?
ME: I would have been...twenty-three.
THEM: Okay. And you're how old now?
ME: I'll be thirty-six in July.
THEM: I was fifty when we met. I'm going to be sixty-three. I could not have taken you on at thirty-five or thirty-six. There was no way I could have done that. So you're probably just not ready to be in that kind of a position. I know you don't think of yourself as still being this young kid, but how old you are really relates to how old everyone around you is, and you're still--There's still a lot of things I think you need to do before you can worry about helping other people do their thing.
ME: I have to wait fourteen years?
THEM: Let's talk about this again in ten years.
ME: I like the questions thing. That's great advice.
THEM: Keep an eye on people who never ask you questions, because that's how they tell you they're not interested in what's going on with you or what you know or who you are.
ME: Such good advice.
THEM: Let's hope you take it.
Them has been my mentor for the past thirteen years.
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