The story you're about to hear happened twenty-five years ago, and when I heard about it, I spent two months tracking down someone willing to speak with me about it.
Here's the interview:
ME: How did it start?
THEM: That's the question. That's what nobody really--We were all talking about that. For months. Because, you know, this was 1996--
ME: '96 or '95?
THEM: '95, I'm sorry. '95. But so, you know, we didn't have--Back then, when something like that--Things never happened like that, but when they did, you got on the phone and this one called that one and compared notes, and you couldn't get a story straight, because it took a week to get everybody's side.
ME: But let's start the beginning.
THEM: Okay.
ME: This took place somewhere in America.
THEM: (Laughs.) Yes.
ME: It was a community theater.
THEM: We did shows out of this auditorium that was next to--It had been built as a gym for the school. It was attached to the school. The high school. Then, they built a new gym, but they kept the gym and turned it into an auditorium, and that's where we did shows.
ME: Who was we?
THEM: We were the _______ and we didn't even have that name for the first--for the first three or four shows. Then we had a name.
THEM: We were the _______ and we didn't even have that name for the first--for the first three or four shows. Then we had a name.
ME: Did you have a leader?
THEM: (Laughs.) Yes.
THEM: (Laughs.) Yes.
ME: Charlie.
THEM: We had Charlie, yes.
ME: What was he like?
THEM: He was. (Sighs.) He was a talented man. He had lived in California and he had been in one or two movies in small parts. He came home because his father got sick and his mother couldn't take care of him on her own, so he came home, and he just stayed. I think he thought while he was there--I might as well keep busy. He didn't know much about theater, but he knew about film, and he knew about acting--He knew a lot about acting. He was a great director, and he found me--I was going to high school and I was in the play we did there, and he came to see it, and he asked me to come do the second or third show with [the theater] and that was my first time working with him.
THEM: He was. (Sighs.) He was a talented man. He had lived in California and he had been in one or two movies in small parts. He came home because his father got sick and his mother couldn't take care of him on her own, so he came home, and he just stayed. I think he thought while he was there--I might as well keep busy. He didn't know much about theater, but he knew about film, and he knew about acting--He knew a lot about acting. He was a great director, and he found me--I was going to high school and I was in the play we did there, and he came to see it, and he asked me to come do the second or third show with [the theater] and that was my first time working with him.
ME: How many years later was the fight?
THEM: By then, we had been around for eleven or twelve years. There was a lot of history by then.
ME: What do you mean?
THEM: When you do theater together with people for that long, you make some enemies. Not everyone gets along forever.
ME: How did it come to actual violence though?
THEM: I wouldn't say it was violence.
THEM: I wouldn't say it was violence.
ME: I have what someone--There was something written up--
THEM: It was violence, but--It was a lot of people letting off steam.
ME: A table full of food got turned over. Two people went through a window--
THEM: There was glass in the lobby of the auditorium and they--
ME: We're getting ahead of ourselves. How do we talk about this without going into all the history of it?
THEM: I don't know. Uh--
ME: What did you see happen first?
THEM: I saw Charlie fighting with [Pigpen].
ME: Why were they fighting?
THEM: Pigpen was like Charlie's little brother. They had a love-hate relationship. The last show they did together, something happened--I don't know what it was--but they stopped speaking, and Charlie told Pigpen 'Get out and don't come back.' He did not want him coming to see shows anymore.
THEM: Pigpen was like Charlie's little brother. They had a love-hate relationship. The last show they did together, something happened--I don't know what it was--but they stopped speaking, and Charlie told Pigpen 'Get out and don't come back.' He did not want him coming to see shows anymore.
ME: This is a small town by the way, right?
THEM: Yes, although we're close to [Large City].
THEM: Yes, although we're close to [Large City].
ME: Okay.
THEM: He told Pigpen to stay away. That was at the end of the last show, because they got into a big fight at the cast party, and I thought it was going to come to blows then. It didn't, and Pigpen said his 'F you's' and left the cast party that was at someone's house, and on the way out, he kicks Charlie's--the door of Charlie's car so hard there was a dent in it--and I thought that was the end of it. We go to opening night for the next show a couple of months later--two months later--and there's Pigpen in the lobby waiting to get in. I grab [Snoopy]--
ME: Who was [Snoopy]?
THEM: Charlie's guy. His--he was like his assistant almost.
ME: You were just there as an audience member, right?
THEM: Yes. So I saw Pigpen in the lobby and I grab Snoopy and I let him know and he goes to find Charlie, because if Charlie sees Pigpen, we're going to have a war, and everybody knows that. Snoopy disappears, and I say to myself, I should go over and tell Pigpen to leave, but he's this big, imposing guy. He was tall, very, um, very intimidating when he wanted to be, and I decide it's not my place. I'll let somebody else handle it. We all go in the auditorium to watch the show, and I don't see Pigpen sitting anywhere. I think that--I think Snoopy must have gotten rid of him. We watch the show. It's very good. I saw other people looking around--looking for Pigpen--he's not there. We all take a deep breath and we enjoy the show.
THEM: Yes. So I saw Pigpen in the lobby and I grab Snoopy and I let him know and he goes to find Charlie, because if Charlie sees Pigpen, we're going to have a war, and everybody knows that. Snoopy disappears, and I say to myself, I should go over and tell Pigpen to leave, but he's this big, imposing guy. He was tall, very, um, very intimidating when he wanted to be, and I decide it's not my place. I'll let somebody else handle it. We all go in the auditorium to watch the show, and I don't see Pigpen sitting anywhere. I think that--I think Snoopy must have gotten rid of him. We watch the show. It's very good. I saw other people looking around--looking for Pigpen--he's not there. We all take a deep breath and we enjoy the show.
ME: Where was Charlie?
THEM: He was always backstage. He didn't like being in the lobby before the show. He stayed backstage.
THEM: He was always backstage. He didn't like being in the lobby before the show. He stayed backstage.
ME: Okay. What happened after the show?
THEM: We're all in the lobby, and out of the corner of my eye, I see Pigpen.
THEM: We're all in the lobby, and out of the corner of my eye, I see Pigpen.
ME: Had he been waiting in the lobby the whole time?
THEM: Somebody told me he went out to his car and sat there, because he wasn't in the lobby at intermission. Nobody saw him at intermission, only after the show.
THEM: Somebody told me he went out to his car and sat there, because he wasn't in the lobby at intermission. Nobody saw him at intermission, only after the show.
ME: So the show's over and you see him?
THEM: Yes.
THEM: Yes.
ME: What happens next?
THEM: I see Lucy, who was Charlie's girlfriend, long-time girlfriend, she goes over to Pigpen to talk to him. I see Pigpen's arms go up as if to be--Don't come near me. I think I hear him say he wants to talk to Charlie, and I can tell he's been drinking.
THEM: I see Lucy, who was Charlie's girlfriend, long-time girlfriend, she goes over to Pigpen to talk to him. I see Pigpen's arms go up as if to be--Don't come near me. I think I hear him say he wants to talk to Charlie, and I can tell he's been drinking.
ME: How can you tell?
THEM: I can smell it. I was close enough--
THEM: I can smell it. I was close enough--
ME: You were that close?
THEM: I was right by them, because I started walking over, because Lucy and I were friends, and I didn't want her going near him.
THEM: I was right by them, because I started walking over, because Lucy and I were friends, and I didn't want her going near him.
ME: So you're walking over--
THEM: And he puts his arms up and then I hear the glass break.
ME: You heard the glass break then?
THEM: I heard the glass break and everybody makes a noise, right? I turn back around, and Charlie is on top of Pigpen, and he's punching him.
THEM: I heard the glass break and everybody makes a noise, right? I turn back around, and Charlie is on top of Pigpen, and he's punching him.
ME: Where did he come from?
THEM: I don't know. He must have looked and saw Lucy near Pigpen and Pigpen with his arms up and he must have come flying, because I had not seen him up to that point.
THEM: I don't know. He must have looked and saw Lucy near Pigpen and Pigpen with his arms up and he must have come flying, because I had not seen him up to that point.
ME: So Charlie and Pigpen didn't break the glass?
THEM: They did not.
THEM: They did not.
ME: Who broke the glass?
THEM: I look over and I can't see because there's a crowd of people, but I can hear what sounds like a fight outside, and over here Charlie's on top of Pigpen, and you have some guys trying to get him off Pigpen and Lucy's screaming at him to stop. I feel a hand on my shoulder, I turn around, and Sally's there, and she slaps me right across my face.
THEM: I look over and I can't see because there's a crowd of people, but I can hear what sounds like a fight outside, and over here Charlie's on top of Pigpen, and you have some guys trying to get him off Pigpen and Lucy's screaming at him to stop. I feel a hand on my shoulder, I turn around, and Sally's there, and she slaps me right across my face.
ME: What?
THEM: Yes.
THEM: Yes.
ME: Now who's Sally?
THEM: Sally was another actress who did shows with us.
THEM: Sally was another actress who did shows with us.
ME: Was she in the show that night?
THEM: She was.
THEM: She was.
ME: Why did she slap you?
THEM: I do not know. I didn't know then and I still do not know.
ME: Wait--you still don't know?
THEM: I don't.
THEM: I don't.
ME: You never asked her?
THEM: I didn't care to, because after she slapped me, I grabbed her by her hair, and I--
THEM: I didn't care to, because after she slapped me, I grabbed her by her hair, and I--
ME: You just grabbed her but you didn't know why she slapped you?
THEM: I grew up with five older brothers. Somebody puts their hands on me, they're going to regret it and I'll ask them why they were dumb enough to do that after the fact. But she wasn't going to haul off and slap me and I was going to stand there asking questions.
THEM: I grew up with five older brothers. Somebody puts their hands on me, they're going to regret it and I'll ask them why they were dumb enough to do that after the fact. But she wasn't going to haul off and slap me and I was going to stand there asking questions.
ME: So you started fighting with her?
THEM: I grabbed her by the hair with one hand, and with the other hand, I'm slapping her wherever I can get her. I don't think anybody knew I could fight like that.
THEM: I grabbed her by the hair with one hand, and with the other hand, I'm slapping her wherever I can get her. I don't think anybody knew I could fight like that.
ME: Oh my god.
THEM: Then I feel somebody pulling us apart, and I think I see Lucy, who's my friend, and she's trying to get me off Sally, and I'm trying to tell her that I got attacked first, and she grabs my arm the wrong way, and I end up hitting her. Not hard, but I hit her. Accidentally.
ME: What happens then?
THEM: She kind of steps backs like--You hit me! Yeah, I hit you. Don't come in between me and somebody else I'm fighting if you don't want to get hit. Everybody knows that. Well, I didn't know it, but the guys who were breaking up Charlie and Pigpen, they got Pigpen into the men's room, and Charlie turns around and he sees me hit Lucy.
THEM: She kind of steps backs like--You hit me! Yeah, I hit you. Don't come in between me and somebody else I'm fighting if you don't want to get hit. Everybody knows that. Well, I didn't know it, but the guys who were breaking up Charlie and Pigpen, they got Pigpen into the men's room, and Charlie turns around and he sees me hit Lucy.
ME: Oh no.
THEM: He comes running at me--I thought he was going to kill me.
ME: Did he hit you?
THEM: He comes at me and gets in an inch of my face--
THEM: He comes at me and gets in an inch of my face--
ME: Where's Sally?
THEM: She's on the ground crying like a little _____ ______ after a few slaps.
THEM: She's on the ground crying like a little _____ ______ after a few slaps.
ME: Okay.
THEM: Charlie's in my face and he's saying 'Don't you ever put your hands on her.' I say 'Charlie you better back up.' He says 'You piece of ____. You ____-ing _____. Don't you ever--' And I don't let people talk to me that way, so I go to push him back, and Lucy tackles me.
ME: I keep saying 'Oh my god.'
THEM: She takes me down, and she's on me. But as she's doing that, another guy, I don't know who, he see Charlie in my face, and he comes at Charlie. Now the two of them are on each other, and that's how the refreshments table got turned over.
ME: What is everybody else doing at this point?
THEM: Everybody's trying to break up fights. There are fights all over the place by now.
THEM: Everybody's trying to break up fights. There are fights all over the place by now.
ME: Who were the people that broke the glass?
THEM: That was Linus and Schroeder.
THEM: That was Linus and Schroeder.
ME: What were they fighting about?
THEM: Somebody told me later on that Schroeder said something about Charlie and Linus always liked Charlie, so he didn't like that, and he didn't like Schroeder, and they'd both been drinking--
THEM: Somebody told me later on that Schroeder said something about Charlie and Linus always liked Charlie, so he didn't like that, and he didn't like Schroeder, and they'd both been drinking--
ME: A lot of people were drinking.
THEM: You don't fight like this if you're sober
ME: You don't go through plate glass windows if you're sober.
THEM: That's right.
ME: I can't believe there are still things you're not clear on all these years later.
THEM: Because what happened was--we were banned. The theater--we weren't allowed to do theater in the auditorium anymore. There was nowhere else to do it. None of us were allowed--people got arrested that night.
ME: Did you get arrested?
THEM: No, I did not.
THEM: No, I did not.
ME: Who got arrested?
THEM: Linus, Schroeder, a few other guys who were starting trouble--
THEM: Linus, Schroeder, a few other guys who were starting trouble--
ME: They were starting trouble separately--
THEM: Once a fight like that starts, everybody just looks around to let off some steam. That's what I was trying to tell you.
ME: But somebody could have gotten killed.
THEM: I would have liked to kill a few people myself, to be honest with you.
ME: Who?
THEM: I never liked Sally that much.
THEM: I never liked Sally that much.
ME: Is that why she slapped you?
THEM: She didn't know I didn't like her.
ME: Maybe she found out?
THEM: Maybe she found out I was doing things I wasn't supposed to be doing.
THEM: Maybe she found out I was doing things I wasn't supposed to be doing.
ME: What does that mean?
THEM: That's all I'm going to say about it, but you don't put your hands on me. You come to me like a woman if you have something to say to me. You don't do a cheap shot across the face while I'm distracted.
THEM: That's all I'm going to say about it, but you don't put your hands on me. You come to me like a woman if you have something to say to me. You don't do a cheap shot across the face while I'm distracted.
ME: So you're on the floor with Lucy. Charlie just knocked over the table with some other guy. Linus and Schroeder are outside fighting after breaking a window.
THEM: Yes.
ME: What else was going on?
THEM: I saw--I heard there was a fight in the ladies room, but I never knew if that was true or not.
ME: Who would have been fighting in the ladies room?
THEM: I don't know, but I heard somebody saying they had to call 9-1-1.
THEM: I don't know, but I heard somebody saying they had to call 9-1-1.
ME: They could've meant the police.
THEM: They weren't talking about the police. We're not f____ing rats. But the police were gonna come anyway. I saw somebody come out of the ladies room and they had blood all down their shirt.
ME: Was it their blood?
THEM: I don't know if it was their blood.
THEM: I don't know if it was their blood.
ME: This sounds like a nightmare.
THEM: It was a clusterf____.
ME: Did somebody get Lucy off you?
THEM: They had to get me off her. I had a clump of her hair in my hand.
THEM: They had to get me off her. I had a clump of her hair in my hand.
ME: You're a big fan of the hair-grabbing.
THEM: You ever had somebody grab your hair?
ME: Sexually or--
ME: Sexually or--
THEM: (Laughs.) It hurts, right?
ME: So they pull you off her--
ME: So they pull you off her--
THEM: And I'm screaming 'You better never, ____, you better never and you better tell your husband to never--'
ME: To never what?
THEM: Never come at me like that again.
THEM: Never come at me like that again.
ME: But you were friends.
THEM: Not after that.
ME: So somebody got you--
THEM: The next thing I know I'm in the theater with Patty and Marcie and they're pretending like they're taking care of me--
ME: I'm going to run out of fake names.
THEM: They're trying to be nice and I'm telling them 'You fake f___ing _____. Don't act like you care.'
ME: Why were you saying this?
THEM: Because they were fake f____ing ____.
THEM: Because they were fake f____ing ____.
ME: Okay.
THEM: They were trying to get the story out of me so they could go back and tell everybody what I said and then they'd do the same thing to the other side. They were f____ing gossips, those two.
ME: So you're in theater with them--
THEM: They start calling me names. We almost had another fight in the theater.
ME: Then what happened?
THEM: That's when we heard someone saying the police were there, and the three of us went out through the dressing rooms where there was another door and a parking lot where all the actors parked their cars and Franklin was out there smoking.
THEM: That's when we heard someone saying the police were there, and the three of us went out through the dressing rooms where there was another door and a parking lot where all the actors parked their cars and Franklin was out there smoking.
ME: Was he an actor?
THEM: He wrote things up for the paper, but he missed the whole damn thing, because the ____ was outside smoking while it was going on, and he asked us why the police were there, and I said 'Why don't you go in and find out, Mr. Reporter?' Then I drove away.
THEM: He wrote things up for the paper, but he missed the whole damn thing, because the ____ was outside smoking while it was going on, and he asked us why the police were there, and I said 'Why don't you go in and find out, Mr. Reporter?' Then I drove away.
ME: And that was it?
THEM: As far as I know. I haven't--I didn't talk much about it, because I didn't want to talk to any of those people, and the people who were talking to me, I told them what I told you just now. That's as much as I had to say about it.
THEM: As far as I know. I haven't--I didn't talk much about it, because I didn't want to talk to any of those people, and the people who were talking to me, I told them what I told you just now. That's as much as I had to say about it.
ME: Do you know what happened to those other people?
THEM: I know--They all stuck around. I'd see some of them, but we kept our distance. This was a real tragedy. We had a nice thing going, but, you know, you can't have nice things if men get involved, because they just want to piss everything away with their f____ing _____, and that's what happened.
THEM: I know--They all stuck around. I'd see some of them, but we kept our distance. This was a real tragedy. We had a nice thing going, but, you know, you can't have nice things if men get involved, because they just want to piss everything away with their f____ing _____, and that's what happened.
ME: But it sounds like there was more going on then just this one fight with Charlie and Pigpen.
THEM: There was a lot going on. There certainly was.
ME: And it never got straightened out?
THEM: Well, nobody ever saw Charlie again after that.
ME: What?
THEM: Nobody saw him. I didn't know if he got arrested, but a week later, somebody calls me and tells me that Lucy's been looking for Charlie, and she can't find him. She went to his house, because his mother said he told her he was moving back to California, and she helped him pack, and that was it, he took off.
THEM: Nobody saw him. I didn't know if he got arrested, but a week later, somebody calls me and tells me that Lucy's been looking for Charlie, and she can't find him. She went to his house, because his mother said he told her he was moving back to California, and she helped him pack, and that was it, he took off.
ME: But he didn't tell Lucy?
THEM: I guess not.
THEM: I guess not.
ME: And nobody heard from him after that?
THEM: I guess he would call his mother, but then his mother sold the house without telling anybody, and one day she was gone too.
THEM: I guess he would call his mother, but then his mother sold the house without telling anybody, and one day she was gone too.
ME: That's terrible.
THEM: For who?
ME: For Lucy.
ME: For Lucy.
THEM: I don't really give a f___ about Lucy, but yeah. I guess.
ME: But he just took off on her?
THEM: They were just f____ buddies, really. She called him her boyfriend, but Charlie had something going with everyone.
THEM: They were just f____ buddies, really. She called him her boyfriend, but Charlie had something going with everyone.
ME: Have you ever tried looking him up?
THEM: Why would I do that?
ME: I don't know. See where he is now.
THEM: Why would I do that?
ME: I don't know. See where he is now.
THEM: He's probably dead.
ME: Why do you say that?
THEM: He had a bad temper and he liked to fight with people. You don't live very long if that's how you are. My brother ____ was like that, and he got himself shot. That's how it goes.
THEM: He had a bad temper and he liked to fight with people. You don't live very long if that's how you are. My brother ____ was like that, and he got himself shot. That's how it goes.
ME: So, for the record, you really don't know why anybody was fighting with anybody that night.
THEM: I know Charlie didn't like Pigpen.
ME: But you don't really know why.
THEM: They're men. F____ing men.
ME: I feel like I need to look into this more.
THEM: Why? It's old news now.
ME: That's why I'm curious about it. When _____ called me--
THEM: ______ called you about it?
ME: Yeah.
ME: Yeah.
THEM: You should tell [them] to mind their own business.
ME: They just thought it was a good story.
THEM: They wouldn't think it was so good if they knew what their mother had to do with it.
ME: Who's their mother?
THEM: You didn't know who their mother was?
ME: No.
THEM: You didn't know who their mother was?
ME: No.
THEM: [Lucy] is their mother.
ME: Why wouldn't they tell me that?
THEM: You'd have to ask them.
THEM: You'd have to ask them.
ME: [They] told me their mother told them about it, but [they] didn't tell me she was involved.
THEM: She always liked to tell selective truths about what went on.
ME: I'm going to look into this more.
THEM: It's just a fight. People fight all the time.
ME: I find this really fascinating.
THEM: Suit yourself.
ME: Don't you want to know why all of this happened? You lost a theater because of it.
THEM: I didn't lose s____. Except a nail while I was ____ing those ______ up. That was it.
ME: Who do you think I should talk to?
THEM: Go talk to Lucy. She won't tell you the truth though, just know that going in.
THEM: Go talk to Lucy. She won't tell you the truth though, just know that going in.
ME: Will anybody tell me the truth?
THEM: (Laughs.) Probably not. You got a good nose for bulls____?
THEM: (Laughs.) Probably not. You got a good nose for bulls____?
ME: Kind of.
THEM: You're going to need one.
Them is a waitress and mother of three.
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