The final interview in this series.
I've got a new project that'll be launching in a few months, but I wanted to make sure I gave this two-year extravaganza a proper send-off before I reboot it in five years, because that's how everything works these days.
What was supposed to start out as an essay about my disillusionment with theater turned into a two-year odyssey featuring some of the best (and worst) I never knew theater had to offer.
It seemed like the only way to finish it was to go back to the beginning and speak to the first friend I interviewed who was in a similar position to me. Their willingness to let me publish their thoughts, even anonymously, helped a lot of people realize that there's no shame in struggling with what you love.
Thank you to everyone who has been reading these every week for the past two years.
I know it's been a little dramatic, but hey, that's theater, right?
Here's the interview:
ME: We're back.
THEM: If I had known you were going to do ninety-nine more of these, I would have asked for residuals.
ME: You really helped me understand that there would be value in talking to other people about this.
THEM: You know, after we talked, I started talking to other friends, and I couldn't believe how many people I know were in the same place you and I were.
ME: Wanting to walk away from theater?
THEM: Not just theater. Singing. Playing in a band. I have a friend who's a designer who wanted to give that up. All these people who were going to give up on what they loved doing.
ME: Why do you think that is?
THEM: You're the expert now. You tell me.
ME: Oh, I'm not the expert. I feel like I barely got started.
THEM: I think we have this feeling that we have to be devoted to our passions and never question them. This has come up in other interviews you did--
ME: So you read the whole series?
THEM: I read a few.
ME: The whole series.
THEM: (Laughs.) It would come up that, in theater, when you say 'I'm having a tough time' there's always somebody standing over you going--Then quit! Because there are so many people who want to do this, and if you don't want to do it, somebody else does!
ME: And to be fair, that is true.
THEM: It is, but how is that compassionate? How are we being kind to each other?
ME: One of the biggest moments for me in the interviews was talking about how we've removed kindness from the arts, because we tell ourselves that kindness had to die so we could be better at the business side of things.
THEM: That was so true! You can behave as badly as you want as long as you're conducting yourself that way during the business part of it, and what's happened is that we've made everything 'the business part of it' so that we can be mean and unfeeling whenever want and get away with it.
ME: It starts in the audition room.
THEM: We have accepted--and I think this ties back in to people wanting to walk away--that's the first step in the process most of the time--and that's where it's agreed-upon that everybody can treat each other as badly as they want, and it's okay. Casting is allowed to be as depressing and upsetting as possible. And it's moving into the rehearsal room now, and pretty soon, it's going to be everywhere, that inhumanity.
ME: Do you that'll change?
THEM: If it changes, it's not going to change because of circumstances. People think it might change because of COVID. I don't think so. If it's going to change, it has to change because people want it to change, and that would mean people who benefit from it wanting it to change.
ME: I've talked to so many people on the business side of things who would probably say that there's no reason you can't be professional and worry about money and turning a profit and still be decent.
THEM: And just--like church and state--just do better about separating those two things.
ME: Because we're so great at separating church and state.
THEM: (Laughs.) We have to put a little distance between the people worrying about the money and the people doing the blocking and the choreographing and the casting. Really, the casting.
ME: I think it all lives and dies in casting. That's something that's really solidified for me.
THEM: If we can crack casting--
ME: It's an infrastructure. It needs to be re-built and re-designed. From the top down.
THEM: How did you come to that feeling?
ME: Because who you put in front of people, I think, is more important than what you give them to say, or what you give them to wear, or where you film them or what kind of stage you have them step onto. You are telling people who has value and who doesn't by what roles you put people in. It determines what's considered 'sexy,' what's considered 'smart,' 'brave,' 'weak,' all of that. It's about being more thoughtful, and more imaginative. I'm struck by how unimaginative casting is most of the time. The most exciting projects in early development are usually exciting because of who they have onboard the project and in what roles. If you go into the kitchen with the wrong ingredients, I don't care how good a chef you are, the food isn't going to turn out right.
THEM: So where do you stand now? Do you still want to walk away?
ME: I was doing that old cry for help, I think, but I even kind of knew that at the time. I was like 'Somebody help me figure out why I'm suddenly falling out of love with this thing I've been in love with since I was eight-years-old.'
THEM: And did people answer the call?
ME: Yeah, and also, I was helped by someone really showing me how you have a relationship to everything in your life. Not just people, but things. Places. Your job. Your passion, like you said, everything, and relationships have peaks and valleys. It's insane to think you'd be involved with something for as long as I was involved with theater and not have some bumps in the road.
ME: Yeah, and also, I was helped by someone really showing me how you have a relationship to everything in your life. Not just people, but things. Places. Your job. Your passion, like you said, everything, and relationships have peaks and valleys. It's insane to think you'd be involved with something for as long as I was involved with theater and not have some bumps in the road.
THEM: So you're reading to go back?
ME: Uhhhh, well--
THEM: (Laughs.) Uh oh.
ME: I'm ready to go back if theater is ready to change. I'm lucky though, because I have my own theater, so I can create change within the organization I work with, primarily. But I don't want to exist in a bubble, so I really want to see if I--along with other people who feel the same--can push other theaters and other theater artists to think about making big, radical change.
THEM: Even though financially things are going to be so hard?
ME: Things aren't going to be any easier financially if our argument for coming back is--'It's going to be just like it used to be.' My friend Aaron always says that--We need to justify why we're coming back. Because a lot of people, frankly, and a lot of groups, have no reason to exist. They want validation. Theater is like Instagram for them. They want the right people popping into their comments section to tell them how brilliant they are. Listen, I want that to, but it can't be just about that, and it can't be the sole reason you're doing what you're doing.
THEM: I'd love to see people playing again.
ME: Yes.
THEM: A sense of--a sense of play. I don't know how long it had been without that. I felt like when I stepped back from theater, I hadn't felt that in a long time.
ME: I think it's a cultural thing too. We're not in a very playful culture at the moment. We're in a fame culture. There's nothing fun about fame--not even if you're famous.
THEM: But you're going to stick with it for now?
ME: I was sticking with it, I started to find some of that excitement again, and then COVID hit.
THEM: I would have thought that would have made you give up more than anything.
ME: No, I'm not giving up for something like that. I learned from the AD I talked to who sadly passed away--
THEM: Yes, that was so sad.
ME: But she stayed in her position the whole time, all throughout her sickness, until she couldn't anymore, and she said it wasn't because she wasn't going to step down unless it was on her terms. Anybody who walks away now because things are getting hard--and I understand some people have no choice, and for some, it's for the good of their own health, and I get that--but I'm going to leave on my terms. Leaving because of COVID would not be on my terms. It would be on the terms of external circumstances. That's not how I'm going to go.
THEM: Does the fight help you rediscover that excitement you were talking about?
ME: Well you certainly learn how much you care when you have to fight for something. And this is a reset, and we needed a reset. I really wish we hadn't gotten it this way, but I also don't know what else would have brought it about other than the complete collapse of the field--
THEM: Which might happen anyway.
ME: That's true. I hope it doesn't, but that's true.
THEM: What's the biggest thing you took from being forced away from theater without it being on your terms?
ME: That I can miss the people without missing the thing. It's interesting to see how many people I do theater with I can still see, keep in touch with, and--but I'll tell you, I did a private Zoom reading--I've done two--with a few friends--and...it's different. It's fun to just be friends with people and go out to eat and all that, but when we all sit down and say 'Okay, now we're actors. Now, we're doing something. Even just for ourselves.' You see a switch flip in people, and I love that. I love seeing that switch flip. I love feeling it flip in myself. The feeling of a group of people getting to work. Getting into character. I just love that, and I did miss it. I didn't realize how much I missed it. That charged feeling.
THEM: Until you just said that, I don't think I realized how much I miss it either, and I'd been gone since before the pandemic.
ME: You want to do my next reading?
THEM: I just might. You got a good role for me?
ME: See, you're already talking like somebody back in the game.
THEM: (Laughs.) I'm glad we did this, Kevin.
ME: Me too. Thanks for talking to me.
THEM: Thanks for listening.
Them has been away from theater for a few years, but they might be making a comeback very soon.
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