Two years ago, I started interviewing people in the theater world about the problems within that community.
All the subjects of the interviews remained anonymous to encourage people to speak directly and plainly without worrying that there would be consequences down the line.
(Of course, even then, some people felt like outing themselves and getting in hot water, but we're going to leave that water under another bridge.)
When I decided it was time to bring the series to a close, it was partly because I thought it had run its course, and partly because I had a new topic I wanted to tackle.
While I've had my issues with theater and the people who do it, I've never felt like I didn't belong there, whereas from the moment I came out, I've never truly felt like a part of the gay community.
To be clear, that probably has way more to do with me than the community, but it's something I wanted to explore, and I knew how I wanted to do it.
The theater interviews were always conducted with people who didn't live anywhere near me, and there was a reason for that. We like to think that if we can attach a problem to someone we know, we can fix the problem, and I've never found that to be the case. Problems within systems are not caused by any one person, but the system itself. That's the case in theater, and I believe it's the same for the LGBTQ community.
So I picked a city far from my own, and I started reaching out to gay men in that city. I spent a few months following as many of them as I could on social media, and then I began asking if I could interview them. The goal was to see if we could address some of the issues of the modern gay community and get to the heart of those issues while hopefully find some solutions.
Last week, I spoke with Noah about his upcoming second wedding to his ex-husband (yes, that's right) and this week I'll be speaking with his ex-and-soon-to-be-future spouse, Elijah.
Here's the interview:
ME: Did you read my interview with Noah?
ELIJAH: Yeah.
ME: What did you think?
ELIJAH: Uh, I learned a lot.
ME: That sounds ominous.
ELIJAH: (Laughs.) We had a good talk after I read it.
ME: Are you still planning on getting married?
ELIJAH: Yes.
ME: Good. I didn't want to be responsible for breaking you two up.
ELIJAH: No, you brought up a lot of things that I hadn't thought about.
ME: Like what?
ELIJAH: I don't think I got why it was important to him to have the kind of wedding we had the first time.
ME: The 88,000 dollar wedding?
ELIJAH: I didn't know it was that much.
ME: You didn't know how much your wedding cost?
ELIJAH: I was told it was an amount that, uh, it was not.
ME: So he lied about how much he was spending on it?
ELIJAH: He gave me an amount, and that's what it was at the time he told me, but when it grew, he didn't tell me it was growing that much.
ME: So he didn't give you any updates?
ELIJAH: Basically.
ME: Did you care about having a big wedding?
ELIJAH: No.
ME: Do you want to have a second wedding?
ELIJAH: I want to get married, yeah.
ME: No, I mean a second--
ELIJAH: Well, we have to have a wedding.
ME: You could have a simpler wedding.
ELIJAH: We're going to have a simpler one. It's not going to be like last time.
ME: But do you understand why Noah wanted another big wedding?
ELIJAH: I know more now.
ME: After reading the interview?
ELIJAH: Yes.
ME: How long have you been a part of the community?
ELIJAH: I came out in college.
ME: And you went to college nearby?
ELIJAH: Yes.
ME: What type of presence would you say you have in your community?
ELIJAH: I think I'm friends with most people. I get along with everybody.
ME: Noah said that after you two got married, you started working out more.
ELIJAH: Yeah.
ME: What brought that on?
ELIJAH: It was--It's funny, I would say it was because of the photos from the wedding.
ME: You didn't like how you looked in them?
ELIJAH: Uh, I didn't have a problem with the way I looked in them at first, but the week after we got married, another couple, who we know, they got married, and, uh, all the comments on their photos--They're two cute guys. They looked good in the photos, and all the comments in the photos were about that.
ME: How good they looked?
ELIJAH: Yes.
ME: What were the comments like?
ELIJAH: It was--You two are so hot. Power couple. All that.
ME: I saw some of your photos from the first wedding though, and people are commenting that you two look good.
ELIJAH: Yeah, uh--I felt like there were more comments on this other couple's photos.
ME: Can I ask a question that you might take offense at?
ELIJAH: Yeah, go ahead.
ME: A lot of the comments on your photos seem to be from girlfriends or family members, whereas the other couple you mentioned, Noah showed me those photos, and I notice a lot of the "You're hot" comments are coming from really attractive guys as well. Do you think you put more stock in the comments they were getting because of where the comments were coming from?
ELIJAH: Uh, it might have made me feel like there were more of those comments than there were.
ME: Because you gave some of the people commenting on theirs more weight?
ELIJAH: Yeah. Yes.
ME: That's not a gotcha, I think everybody does that. My third cousin telling me I look cute versus Jay Ellis saying it is not the same.
ELIJAH: Yeah.
ME: So the juxtaposition of the feedback those guys were getting compared to what you got made you want to start working out?
ELIJAH: It was something I had wanted to do for a long time. I grew up overweight. I had been overweight all my life. I tried to lose the weight leading up to the wedding, but I couldn't get myself motivated. Seeing those photos and getting all this appreciation, but not hearing from people that I looked good? That bothered me.
ME: Not hearing from certain people that you looked good.
ELIJAH: Yeah, that's--That's true, yeah.
ME: Don't you think it's interesting that you've just married someone, and you're already getting mad, because you're not getting validation from other people?
ELIJAH: You're right.
ME: Again, not judging you. I would be the same way. I just find it so fascinating, because I think part of what would appeal to me about marriage is the idea that--Okay, this person loves me. They've made this incredible commitment to me, and now I never need to worry about what any other guy thinks about me again.
ELIJAH: It would be nice, but it's not what happens.
ME: Did it bother you that you were still thinking about what these other guys thought of you?
ELIJAH: I didn't think about it that way. I thought it was more about how I felt about myself.
ME: Do you think people are being honest when they get in shape and say it's just for them?
ELIJAH: It is for you, I mean, it's about getting healthy.
ME: But what about when you post about it?
ELIJAH: I think, for me, it was about accountability. Making sure I stuck to it.
ME: But you could get a workout partner who keeps you accountable. There are lots of ways that a person can hold themselves accountable without publicly posting photos of themselves shirtless in a gym, right?
ELIJAH: I wasn't shirtless that often, but--
ME: In that one photo you posted, you were way more than shirtless.
ELIJAH: The one Noah got upset about?
ME: Yes.
ELIJAH: Yeah, that was--That was a big problem for us.
ME: He said you posting that photo was the beginning of the end of your marriage.
ELIJAH: I know he said that.
ME: Do you agree?
ELIJAH: I think we had other problems.
ME: Like what?
ELIJAH: I was feeling really good about myself and he wasn't.
ME: Because now you're in amazing shape and he's the same as he was before?
ELIJAH: Yeah.
ME: Were you two still being intimate with each other?
ELIJAH: No.
ME: Was that because of you or because of him?
ELIJAH: I don't think it was anybody's fault.
ME: Who would normally initiate being intimate?
ELIJAH: Usually me.
ME: Had you kept that up?
ELIJAH: Uh. I think he would say 'No.'
ME: But would that be accurate?
(Silence.)
ELIJAH: I guess, yeah.
ME: Why did you stop initiating?
ELIJAH: I was tired. I was getting up early every day working out and then working all day.
ME: Were you still attracted to him?
ELIJAH: Uh. I'll tell you something I told him, but it's going to sound bad.
ME: Okay.
ELIJAH: I was never attracted to him.
ME: Then why did you marry him?
ELIJAH: Because I was never into any of the guys who were into me. I didn't know what it felt like to be attracted to someone and have them be attracted to me back. I had written that off as something that was never going to happen.
ME: So you were initiating sex with someone you weren't attracted to?
ELIJAH: Yeah.
ME: But then why did you stop? Like, what changed?
ELIJAH: Uh, I felt like he was uncomfortable.
ME: Having sex with you once you started working out?
ELIJAH: Yeah.
ME: Why do you think he was uncomfortable?
ELIJAH: I think he felt self-conscious.
ME: Was there any part of you that felt like you didn't want to have sex with him once you had the body that you did?
ELIJAH: I don't think it was because of how my body looked. I really was tired.
ME: Did you know he was uncomfortable with you taking photos of yourself at the gym?
ELIJAH: He said that he was uncomfortable with what people would comment.
ME: Once you started getting in shape?
ELIJAH: Yeah.
ME: What was your response to him?
ELIJAH: That I was not responding to those guys on there.
ME: Were you?
ELIJAH: No. I wasn't.
ME: Were you getting direct messages about it?
ELIJAH: I did towards--once I was losing a lot of weight and you could see the difference.
ME: Did you respond to the messages?
ELIJAH: I would say 'Thank you' when people would compliment me. That was it.
ME: But you liked the compliments?
ELIJAH: Yeah, it felt good.
ME: And that made you want to take more photos?
ELIJAH: Yeah.
ME: So it becomes this cycle of validation?
ELIJAH: Yeah.
ME: But you know that Noah isn't happy about it?
ELIJAH: Yeah.
ME: What state would you say the relationship was when you posted the photo of you in the towel?
ELIJAH: I thought he was getting more comfortable with me posting those photos, because that was when we had talked about being open.
ME: About having an open relationship?
ELIJAH: Yes.
ME: Who asked for an open relationship? How did that conversation start?
ELIJAH: He brought it up.
ME: That he wanted it or he wanted to know if you wanted it?
ELIJAH: He wanted to know if I wanted it.
ME: And what did you say?
ELIJAH: I said I would be willing to try it if he wanted to.
ME: So you two tried being open?
ELIJAH: We did, but nothing happened.
ME: Why not?
ELIJAH: Because we had decided that how it was going to work was that we were only going to hook up with other people together, and, uh. Yeah.
ME: What happened?
ELIJAH: It didn't work out.
ME: Why not?
ELIJAH: Um. I don't know if I should say.
ME: Can I take a guess?
ELIJAH: You can.
ME: If I get it right, will you tell me?
ELIJAH: Yeah.
ME: Did it have anything to do with guys wanting to hook up with you but not with him, and because that was the condition of you two being open, you could never make it happen?
(Silence.)
ELIJAH: We did have trouble with that, yeah.
ME: And there's nothing wrong with being open, but it seems like that wasn't going to solve the problems you were having.
ELIJAH: It didn't.
ME: Do you think he was trying to prolong you getting restless?
ELIJAH: I don't know.
ME: And then you posted the towel photo?
ELIJAH: I didn't think he would be excited about it, but I genuinely didn't think he'd care as much as he did.
ME: And was that for you?
ELIJAH: What do you mean?
ME: Was posting that photo for you? You said working out was for you. You wanted to get in good shape. You wanted to be held accountable. How did that specific photo fit into all that?
ELIJAH: I felt good. I took a photo. People do it all the time.
ME: Which you're allowed to do, but did you really think it wouldn't upset Noah?
ELIJAH: I knew it might upset him, but not to that degree.
ME: Because he flipped?
ELIJAH: He flipped.
ME: Do you see how it might be anxiety-inducing for him to see you, his husband, who is now looking like a movie star, getting attention from other guys who look like movie stars, and he does not look like a movie star, and not only have you stopped having sex with him, but nobody else wants to have sex with him even if they can have sex with you in the process? That all sounds like it's leading nowhere good.
ELIJAH: But I loved him.
ME: But we're gay men. So let's get real. You can love a lot of people.
ELIJAH: No, I loved Noah.
ME: But you weren't attracted to him.
ELIJAH: That's not important to me.
ME: Oh Elijah. Come on.
ELIJAH: It isn't.
ME: But you like other people letting you know they're attracted to you?
ELIJAH: Everybody likes that.
ME: Would it ever have been good enough if only Noah, your husband, found you attractive and told you so? I'm assuming he would tell you.
ELIJAH: He would.
ME: But it wasn't good enough?
ELIJAH: It was.
ME: Be honest. Was it?
ELIJAH: Um.
(Silence.)
ME: Was it?
ELIJAH: No.
ME: You want to hear a secret? I'll meet you halfway.
ELIJAH: Okay.
ME: There is not a person on this earth who could love me enough where I wouldn't want more.
ELIJAH: Thank you for saying that.
ME: It's true. Somebody cheated on Halle Berry, so what hope do the rest of us have? We want more. We have access to more. People a hundred years ago used to see the same six people everyday of their lives. They had no idea what 'more' was, right? We know there's more. And we know how to get it. And you did exactly what you knew you had to do to get more, and then you were surprised when it came around looking for you.
ELIJAH: I wasn't surprised.
ME: You must have known that if you got the body you wound up with, the option to leave Noah was going to be presented to you, right?
ELIJAH: I...I don't know if I knew that. Maybe I did and I didn't want to, to admit it? I don't know.
ME: Did you see other people after you two got divorced?
ELIJAH: Yes.
ME: How was that?
ELIJAH: It was fun. But it was weird too.
ME: Why weird?
ELIJAH: Because some of the guys talking to me were guys that hadn't talked to me before, and, um, they had to, like, come up with reasons for why they wanted to be my friend all of a sudden.
ME: What were the reasons they gave you?
ELIJAH: You're confident now. You seem happier. You're more fun to be around.
ME: Bullshit, right?
ELIJAH: (Laughs.) Right.
ME: You knew that was bullshit?
ELIJAH: Yeah.
ME: Did you care?
ELIJAH: Uh. no.
ME: And then you were posting a ton of gym selfies.
ELIJAH: I started posting a lot.
ME: Do you think you got addicted to it?
ELIJAH: To posting those photos?
ME: Yes.
ELIJAH: I think so, yeah. I would post photos from--more of the ones like the one with the towel. It got to the point where, like, what more can I post? Photos of me naked? People get bored, and then you're like--What am I doing? Checking to see how many likes I got and 'This guy got more than me' and I was thinking of doing some stupid s***.
ME: Like what?
ELIJAH: Plastic surgery.
ME: ON WHAT?
ELIJAH: My nose.
ME: Your nose is fine!
ELIJAH: I just wanted--You get--It's a perfection thing. You want to be perfect.
ME: I mean, I'm not against surgery, but until it becomes affordable to put my brain in Jake Gyllenhaal's body, I can't do it.
ELIJAH: Noah and I started seeing each other before it got that far, and he talked me out of it.
ME: And now you and Noah are doing it again. Getting married.
ELIJAH: It's different now.
ME: Because now you and Noah look the same?
ELIJAH: We're different people now.
ME: Because you both joined Crossfit? You didn't go to a commune and center yourselves with nature. You're pushing weights around a room. You're not different people.
ELIJAH: It changes the way you feel about yourself.
ME: Right. You feel hot. He feels hot. You're hot for each other.
ELIJAH: And we do love each other.
ME: But you couldn't make it work when the two of you--or one of you, whatever--didn't look the way you did before, and that concerns me. Want to know why?
ELIJAH: Why?
ME: Because we're all going to get old. We're all going to get wrinkles. And before that even happens, one of you could get sick. One of you could get in an accident and need a limb amputated. This could get really hard in a way it didn't even get hard before, and you think everything's changed, because now you both want to tackle each other all the time. Would you be able to stick around if he, and I hope this never happens, but, if he went into a coma tomorrow, and you had to go sit by his bed every day, and hold his hand, and take care of him, and none of it was glamorous, and none of it was anything you could post on Instagram for likes, and it was all hard, all the time, could you do it?
(Silence.)
ELIJAH: No.
ME: Well then I think you two need to talk.
Elijah still posts two to three photos of himself a day.
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