Theater and the Season Announcement Pt. 2

Last week's conversation got such a huge response, that I thought I'd go back and speak with my friend again about their reaction to some of what's being said online and what's transpired since then.

You can read the first part here:  https://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2020/05/on-theater-and-season-announcement.html

Here's the interview:

ME:  We're back.

THEM:  What am I thinking?

ME:  I think you're crazy for doing this, but--

THEM:  You ASKED me to do it again.

ME:  Well, you saw the click numbers.

THEM:  Those were great numbers.

ME:  Those were approaching some of my best numbers.

THEM:  You do have the best numbers.

ME:  Damn straight--or gay, however you want to--

THEM:  Okay, let's get a move on.

ME:  What's happened since we last spoke?

THEM:  We have cancelled any plans for a Fall season.

ME:  And that's my fault?

THEM:  (Laughing.)  Fault is a good word for it.

ME:  I would like to take credit for it.

THEM:  You--I went back to some of the people on my board and I talked about some of your, uh, the things you brought up, and we started making a new plan.

ME:  What's the new plan?

THEM:  We're going to look at 2021 and, in the meantime, we're going to focus on what we can offer online and how we can rework our budget to prolong being closed.

ME:  How is that news being met?

THEM:  I think people are--It was really difficult to do it this past week, because you have so many people--including the Vice-President--saying, 'This is all done. We're good. Back to normal.' The idea that it won't be responsible to open a theater in September seems, um--It seems to people like we're back to where we were when all this started which is--Now you're overreacting.

ME:  The evidence doesn't bear that out.

THEM:  That's the other part we worked on.  We have to say to our audiences--This has to be based on what is real not what your uncle told you about how a vaccine is coming next week.  There is--If you look at the facts, there is no reason to believe it is safe, as of now, to get hundreds of people together in a room in September.  If that changes, we can make a new plan.  If it doesn't change in time for us to make a new plan, then we stick with the one we have that we know isn't going to get people killed.

ME:  You sound like you've done a full--

THEM:  Well when people call you a monster in the comments section.

ME:  I think it was me hammering you on your salary--

THEM:  That didn't help.

ME:  Do you still not want to tell me your salary?

THEM:  I do not.

ME:  I did find out though.

THEM:  I knew you would.

ME:  Would you be mad if I said what it was?

THEM:  I wouldn't be happy about it.

ME:  Then I won't.

THEM:  Thank you.

ME:  But it is a lot of money.

THEM:  I think I'm worth it.

ME:  I'm not arguing--one of my friends actually reached out to me to say that he was worried I was arguing that artists don't deserve to make money or even make a lot of money doing what they do.

THEM:  That's what it sounded like to me too.

ME:  I guess, for me, it's more about where we're going.  Can a theater that needs millions of dollars a year to stay open continue to stay open based on what the future is looking like?

THEM:  Well, Kevin, you can't change those numbers by much.  By a little, yes.  But not--you can't cut millions of dollars off a budget and continue to produce the kind of theater--Theaters don't set the prices on materials.  Those of us who rent don't get to set our rent.  We can't control how much people are willing to pay for tickets versus how much a show costs to put on.  When you add all that up, that can come to millions of dollars when you're running a theater the size of mine.  The costs are not going to change.  If you're asking if that money is still going to be there when it was barely there before now?  It probably won't be.  I don't know what the answer is though, because--I've sat with those numbers.  They're not that flexible.  You brought up being flexible, but the numbers aren't.  So then we start to talk about closures, which I don't think anybody wants.

ME:  In general, do you think theater at a certain level--I'm even talking Broadway and at the biggest levels--has become financially unsustainable?

THEM:  But why talk about that now?

ME:  I--

THEM:  Because that feels like kicking people when they're down.

ME:  Kicking people with millions of dollars when they're--

THEM:  I don't have millions of dollars, Kevin.

ME:  I didn't say you.

THEM:  No, but--

ME:  I didn't say you.  I'm saying--you did [Name of Play] at your theater, which is about the 2008 collapse, which is about greed, but also about fiscal irresponsibility.  It's about business becoming too big to fail.  Do you think theater--some theater--has started to go down that road if it isn't there already?

(Pause.)

THEM:  I think theater exists in the world and if the world says 'To bring theater to this many people--to thousands or tens of thousands of people--it's going to cost this much' then I don't know what influence theater has to say 'We're not going to pay that because one day it's going to put us in a position where we can't justify existing anymore.'

ME:  Okay.

THEM:  You wouldn't be asking somebody in the sports industry this question.

ME:  What question?

THEM:  If they can justify--

ME:  First of all, if you're asking if I'll say that people in the sports world are overpaid, Yes, I will happily say that.  But they also bring in money, and you can't argue with that.  You can argue that the general public spends their money on stupid f***ing ****, yes, I will get onboard with that.  Julia Roberts makes twenty million a movie, because her movies used to make a hundred million.  Is that dumb?  Sure.  But the money is there, and she's entitled to money she may have brought in.  You're getting paid double what your theater brought in in ticket sales last year and you're the one programming the shows.

THEM:  That's because--

ME:  So how do you justify, specifically, being worth what you're worth.

THEM:  Because I can't raise ticket prices, but that doesn't mean--My value does not exist in ticket sales, Kevin.

ME:  But in every other business--

THEM:  We are not a business.  We are a non-profit.

ME:  You are making six figures and you're saying 'We're a non-profit.'

THEM:  Lots of people working for--You know how non-profits work.

ME:  But then what rules do you follow?  What are the--I'm really worried about non-profits if the argument as we enter what could be another depression is 'You have to understand that we're going to lose millions of dollars and you have to keep us going.'

THEM:  That's what non-profits are, because we contribute something--

ME:  But what are you contributing--you specifically, in your position--

THEM:  I'm not going to go line-by-line with you and say 'I'm worth this because that.'  I'm not going to do that, Kevin.  And I don't know how this became about that.

ME:  Because you're saying theater costs so much to do because of how much the wood you use to build the set costs and not that the three top people in your organization make almost three quarters of a million dollars.

THEM:  That is not unusual for a theater our size.

ME:  Please don't point to a rigged system and say 'It's not my fault the system is rigged.'

THEM:  I don't think it's a rigged system.  Nobody says the medical system is rigged because surgeons become millionaires.

ME:  I would say that's rigged, and I would also say what you do is not the equivalent of a f***ing surgeon.

THEM:  Kevin--

ME:  Gurl.

THEM:  If you want me to donate my salary back to the theater we can talk about that--

ME:  We can?

THEM:  --That's not going to keep the theater open.

ME:  Has lowering your salary been suggested?

THEM:  I've taken salary cuts before.

ME:  By how much?

THEM:  I'm not getting into that.

ME:  Then why bring it up?

THEM:  Because I'm not in this to be rich.  Believe me, I could have gone into a lot of other fields and made a lot more money.

ME:  Okay.

THEM:  I just don't appreciate you throwing stones at people who are trying to--who are doing their best to keep these theaters going.

ME:  You were selling tickets to shows that weren't going to happen.  How is that--

THEM:  We are no longer selling tickets and we will refund the tickets we did sell and how does that have anything to do with what I make other than that you want to use me as a punching bag?

ME:  Did you make a disparaging comment to me about when my theater could open as opposed to when your theater could?

THEM:  When?

ME:  When all this started.

THEM:  If I did, I'm sorry.

ME:  Oh?

THEM:  I'm not saying I didn't, but a lot was going on.

ME:  Why would you make a comment like that?

THEM:  What was the comment?

ME:  You just said 'Oh well we know you'll be fine if these limits are--'

THEM:  Kevin, maybe I was upset?  Did you think about that?

ME:  Did you think I wasn't upset?

THEM:  I'm sure you were.  I'm sorry.  I am.

ME:  But ever since then, I get this wave of animosity--

THEM:  You with the animosity.

ME:  Am I imagining it?

THEM:  It is normal for someone to be upset that someone in the same field as them is going to be able to get back in the game before they are.

ME:  You think I'm in the same field as you?

THEM:  You--

ME:  You make a living off this.  This is all you do.  You think we're the same?

THEM:  We might be the same when all this is over.

ME:  Just like you're the same as a surgeon.

THEM:  Oh my god.

ME:  What do you mean 'We might all be the same when all this is over?'

THEM:  Meaning maybe none of us will have theaters will this is over.

ME:  I think if we're able to have theaters, they're going to have to look--institutionally--a lot different.

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  Do you think that's entirely a bad thing?

THEM:  I--No.  I don't.

ME:  Would you work for less than what you're making?

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  How much less?

THEM:  (Laughing.)  You're f***ing insane.

ME:  Sure.  How much less would you work for?

THEM:  Do you want my job?

ME:  I'll take your job.  I'll do it for free.

THEM:  See and people saying they would work for free is how artists get f***ed, Kevin.

ME:  That's true.  I'll give you that.  But at the end of the day, everything's only worth what people are willing to pay for it.  If people are only willing to pay ten bucks for a theater ticket, then you need to structure your organization in such a way that you can live off the amount of ten dollar tickets that are coming in and not how much you can talk Walmart into donating to your theater so you can turn an arts non-profit into what is, essentially, a corporation.  I just think that in every other field, the person who's number one has to say 'I am worth this amount because I have sold this much of a thing or I have done the following things that have brought in this amount' and it all adds up.  As soon as we start talking about the arts, everything becomes subjective and math goes out the window.  I don't think that's going to fly anymore.

THEM:  So who do you think, right now, in theater, is worth what they're being paid?  At a top level?

ME:  Diane Paulus.

THEM:  At ART?

ME:  Yes.

THEM:  What's the reasoning for that?

ME:  Broadway transfers.  Ground-breaking work.  Completely rejuvenating the--

THEM:  You don't think I've done that?

ME:  Have you had any Broadway transfers?

THEM:  You say Broadway transfers like it's--

ME:  I don't know if I want to go down this road.

THEM:  What road?

ME:  Talking about your programming.

THEM:  One of your plays is in my season next year so--

ME:  It's the best thing in your season next year.

THEM:  Oh really?

ME:  Or what your season was going to be, yes.  I told you that.

THEM:  While we're talking about selling tickets, you think it's easy to sell tickets to a Kevin Broccoli play instead of a musical or a Shakespeare?

ME:  I think if you've been feeding a kid McDonald's for ten years, yes, it's going to be hard to get them to eat a vegetable.

THEM:  That's cute.

ME:  Your audience is the tail that wags the dog.

THEM:  You know so much for someone who has never had to sit where I'm sitting.

ME:  You let me sit where you're sitting--

THEM:  For free.

ME:  For free, and we'll see how I do.

THEM:  You want to swap in the middle of a pandemic?  Let's do it.

ME:  You going to take over my black-box?

THEM:  I would love to program whatever the f*** I wanted.  That would be a real treat for me.

ME:  You can program whatever you want NOW, you just have to remember not to back down when one of your right-wing donors complains.

THEM:  Here we go.

ME:  If you're saying, 'We all might not have a theater when this is over' why not just go for broke.  Just do what you want.

THEM:  Because people depend on me.  There is a staff--

ME:  When you come back in 2021, are you doing my play or are you doing [Name of Musical].

THEM:  I hope we can do both.

ME:  But if you have to choose?

THEM:  [Name of Musical].

ME:  So your plan is, world goes upside down, you get back to the theater, and the first thing you're going to do is exactly the thing you would have done before all this happened?

THEM:  (Laughs.)  I really hate you.

ME:  (Laughs.)  But answer the question.

THEM:  You can't say to me--Why don't you just throw out the status quo?

ME:  I don't have to say that to you.  The status quo is gone.

THEM:  You're right.

ME:  Does any part of you feel insecure about all this because it's exposing things about how theaters at your level do business in ways you'd rather not have out there?

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  That was easy.

THEM:  We are not--When you talk about business, you're not always talking about--it's not shocking to say that Coke would rather Pepsi not know what the secret formula is.  There is a lot more transparency going on, and we do things that I know look a certain way to the general public and to other people in our field that work for us, but might not--I mean, we're talking about how the sausage gets made.  No, I don't like that being out there.  But we're not committing crimes.  We're not even--You said selling tickets was unethical--I don't think it was.  We are a huge organization that cannot easily navigate this--when things are changing every day--in the way that smaller organizations can, and if you're feeling a negativity towards you from me or anybody else doing this at the level I'm at, it might be because it is hard to see how easily it is for you to adapt in ways that--it's not possible for me, Kevin.  It's just not.

ME:  Okay, I get that.

THEM:  And I take it very personally to be attacked for what I make.  That's how I feel about it.

ME:  One of the reasons I did that though is because you furloughed half your staff and you're still taking a paycheck.

THEM:  Yes, because I still needed to be here getting work done.  We don't need a box office staff right when there aren't tickets to sell.

ME:  But you could have waived your salary and kept paying them for longer, right?

THEM:  Lots of people could do that.

ME:  But I'm talking about you.

THEM:  I have to live as well, believe it or not.

ME:  You don't have any money in savings?  You don't have any--

THEM:  What I said--

ME:  We're friends.  You have a boat.  Come on, now.

THEM:  What does having a f***ing boat have to do with--

ME:  You have people working for you who make minimum wage--

THEM:  Kevin--

ME:  And you have a BOAT!

THEM:  Don't forget.  I didn't show up with Daddy's money.  I worked in front of house.  I bar-tended.  I put myself through school.  Don't make me sound like I never worked.

ME:  I didn't say--

THEM:  Yes, you f***ing did.  We can talk redistribution of wealth if you want, but I cannot be solely responsible--Why don't you get the Head of Hobby Lobby for one of these talks and you can ask him about his f***ing boat.  Are you kidding me with that?

ME:  Because I can't just let you say 'It hurt my feelings that you ask me about what I make.'  You make a lot.

THEM:  Yes, I do.

ME:  But when your theater re-opens, if it does, what are you going to be making and are all those people you furloughed coming back or are their jobs getting eliminated while you keep your boat, and the reason I ask that--

THEM:  Kevin.

ME:  --The reason I ask that is because you sit here going 'We're not a business, we're not a corporation' so what does that mean?  Because usually the implication there when we're talking about non-profits is that 'We're nicer. We're kinder. We contribute to society whereas Amazon is an evil for-profit.'  But are you going to be making six figures if you re-open?

THEM:  You want me to say I'll take a cut?

ME:  Don't you think you'll have to before you decide there are people you just can't bring back?

THEM:  We can talk about this off the record.

ME:  This is anonymous.  It's not on the record.

THEM:  I don't feel comfortable talking about this in this kind of format.

ME:  Okay.

THEM:  I will say I don't take lay-offs lightly or furloughing people, and I would want to get everyone back if possible.

ME:  Okay.

THEM:  Once we talk more privately, I will--We can come back to this.

ME:  Okay.  But the takeaway is, you're not doing a Fall season, you're not selling tickets--

THEM:  I have a boat.

ME:  You have a boat.

THEM:  I can't believe you painted me as a f***ing rich asshole with a boat.

ME:  But if you own a boat, own a boat, right?  I mean, OWN the boat.

THEM:  I own the boat.

ME:  Make that your new mantra.  Owning the Boat.

THEM:  I don't want that as a mantra.

ME:  Okay, fine.  I do love you and I'm sorry if screaming at each other like this is bad for your mental health.

THEM:  Is it bad for your mental health?  I love it.  It's better than working out.

ME:  I love it too.  I haven't been able to scream at anybody in months.

THEM:  That's hard for you.

ME:  It's so hard.

THEM:  I love you too.  Please take care of yourself.

ME:  You too.  Promise you'll do my show and not that s****y musical.

THEM:  You gonna sell tickets?

ME:  Have you met me?

THEM:  (Laughs.)  Touché.

Them is an Artistic Director.