Two years ago, I started interviewing people in the theater world about the problems within that community.
All the subjects of the interviews remained anonymous to encourage people to speak directly and plainly without worrying that there would be consequences down the line.
(Of course, even then, some people felt like outing themselves and getting in hot water, but we're going to leave that water under another bridge.)
When I decided it was time to bring the series to a close, it was partly because I thought it had run its course, and partly because I had a new topic I wanted to tackle.
While I've had my issues with theater and the people who do it, I've never felt like I didn't belong there, whereas from the moment I came out, I've never truly felt like a part of the gay community.
To be clear, that probably has way more to do with me than the community, but it's something I wanted to explore, and I knew how I wanted to do it.
The theater interviews were always conducted with people who didn't live anywhere near me, and there was a reason for that. We like to think that if we can attach a problem to someone we know, we can fix the problem, and I've never found that to be the case. Problems within systems are not caused by any one person, but the system itself. That's the case in theater, and I believe it's the same for the LGBTQ community.
So I picked a city far from my own, and I started reaching out to gay men in that city. I spent a few months following as many of them as I could on social media, and then I began asking if I could interview them. The goal was to see if we could address some of the issues of the modern gay community and get to the heart of those issues while hopefully find some solutions.
This week, I'm speaking with "Mark." He's a friend of "Tyler," the person I spoke with last week, so suggested I take a look at polyamory.
Here's the interview:
ME: Can you hear me okay?
MARK: I can hear you, but can you hear me? It sounds weird on my end.
ME: No, you sound great.
MARK: But I don't want to hear myself.
ME: Same.
MARK: Okay, I think I fixed it.
ME: Years in, and I'm still bad at this.
MARK: I work in tech and I still have these problems.
ME: How long have you been in tech?
MARK: I've always loved tech.
ME: How long have you been out?
MARK: I came out in high school. I was sixteen.
ME: So you've been out for awhile, because you're in your thirties, right?
MARK: I'm thirty-four now.
ME: And when did you meet Alex?
MARK: We met freshman year of college. We started dating, and we got married about eight years ago.
ME: Were you each other's first boyfriends?
MARK: I was his first boyfriend. I had dating in high school and I dated one guy before him in college, but when I met him, he was still in the closet, and he came out after he met me.
ME: So you were the gateway to his coming out?
MARK: Uh, you could say that.
ME: And when you were dating, were you open?
MARK: We weren't officially open, but we had...done things.
ME: You were vacation-with-another-gay-couple open.
MARK: (Laughs.) What?
ME: That thing where two gay couples go on vacation and try to pretend they didn't hook up--
MARK: Ohhhh noooo--
ME: Like you four are fooling anybody.
MARK: You are crazy.
ME: That's a thing!
MARK: Just because you see two gay couples on a trip together, that doesn't mean they're all hooking up.
ME: Did you and Alex go on a trip with another gay couple?
MARK: Yes.
ME: Did you hook up with that other couple?
MARK: Uh.
ME: Thank you.
MARK: But that doesn't always happen.
ME: We're moving on.
MARK: (Laughs.) I'm going to get in so much trouble.
ME: It's Stir It Up Tuesdays, Mark. It's what we do. So you two were soft open--
MARK: SOFT OPEN. I'm dead.
ME: You were soft open like a new restaurant, and then you--what? Brought in Jacob?
MARK: We--No, we met Jacob, because one night, we were, uh--
ME: On vacation?
MARK: We were not on vacation. We'd had a little bit to drink, and uh, Alex went on his phone, and asked if I wanted to meet this guy Jake.
ME: And did you say 'Who's Jake?'
MARK: I did, and he said, 'We talked on Instagram.'
ME: False. Continue.
MARK: (Laughs.) No, it might have been Instagram.
ME: That was Alex's app of choice?
MARK: He liked Instagram. Do you follow him?
ME: I do. He really loves that bright filter.
MARK: You are rude.
ME: Listen, I'm Portuguese. I get it. We need all the blinding light we can get to look something resembling human.
MARK: ANYWAY--
ME: Anyway, Jake comes over, I'm guessing?
MARK: Yes.
ME: And then?
MARK: I don't want to talk about that.
ME: No, I mean, like--the next day.
MARK: Ohhhh--
ME: What kind of basement blog do you think I'm running?
MARK: (Laughs.) I thought you wanted details.
ME: Who was the Drew Barrymore, who was the Lucy Liu, and who was the Cameron Diaz? That's all I want to know.
MARK: People in Rhode Island must hate you.
ME: There are villagers with torches outside my house right now.
MARK: Good.
ME: So it all went well, and then did you see him again?
MARK: He stayed the weekend.
ME: He stayed the weekend?
MARK: Yes.
ME: Then what?
MARK: Then that was it. He never left.
ME: You just--moved him in?
MARK: It was, um--Well first of all, it was a good weekend.
ME: I have not had a weekend like that in--
MARK: (Laughs.) The lost weekend.
ME: Well it ended with you losing your husband, so--
MARK: Get. Out.
ME: Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Also, I just want to say, the messaging of this is not 'polyamory doesn't work.'
MARK: No. The message is 'We thought we were involved in something polyamorous and we were not.' This was polyamory done wrong.
ME: So he moves in.
MARK: He didn't really move in, he was there all the time.
ME: Did you care?
MARK: No, I like Jake. He's fun.
ME: But all of a sudden, there's another person in your house.
MARK: Yeah.
ME: Had things been bad with you and Alex?
MARK: Um. Alex and I never had--He's going to be so mad at me for saying this.
ME: He'll get his turn don't worry.
MARK: Are you talking to him too?
ME: That's the plan.
MARK: Ahhhhhhh okay. He--He and I never had this, you know, unbelievable sex life. We were a great couple. We got along very well. We were best friends. Sexually I would not say that we were compatible.
ME: Did you always know that about each other?
MARK: When you first meet--I had--We're talking college now, but--I had just come out of a brief relationship where everything was wrong except for the sex, and so, when I met Alex, it was like--Now I'm happy in every other way, but that way, and the adult thing to do is not to make a big deal out of it, because you can't have everything.
ME: Deep thoughts for a college freshman.
MARK: It's what I put together in my head.
ME: Do you think you would feel the same way now?
MARK: I might. I--You know, people tell you, 'You meet someone. It's hot and heavy in the beginning. It cools off. You get used to it. Sex isn't everything.'
ME: Lies, lies, lies, lies, lies made up by straight people.
MARK: But it really isn't everything.
ME: It's enough. As long as you have a libido, you need to worry about your sex life. That whole 'Sex isn't important' nonsense has gotten more people broken up.
MARK: But then you're looking for someone you connect with sexually and every other way--
ME: But when you see those couples that look like nightmares because they don't seem to be getting along and they fight all the time but they never split it up, it's--
MARK: They're having good sex.
ME: They're having good sex. But yes, it's hard to find it all. That's why some relationships need special considerations like deciding to be open or bringing another person in, and all of that is fine, but I'm wondering if sex was symbolic of other problems between you and Alex?
MARK: Looking back, uh, I would say that if it was symbolic of a bigger problem, it's that I was the first guy he ever dated, kissed, everything, and he never got the chance to kind of have his--Gay puberty.
ME: Sow his oats?
MARK: Yes. So every time we would--I hate that now you're making me say 'went on vacation with another couple.'
ME: Every time you would go on vacation--
MARK: --With another couple, I would notice that he was--He was like a totally different person.
ME: In a good way or a bad way?
MARK: A way where it felt like he was, uh, unleashed? Liberated? I don't know. It was like he was discovering this thing he didn't know existed.
ME: Sex with someone other than you.
MARK: (Laughs.) Yes.
ME: Did you talk about being real open and not on-vacation open?
MARK: We did, and, uh, he didn't seem to want that.
ME: Why not?
MARK: I think he had preconceived notions of it?
ME: But he didn't have preconceived notions about polyamory?
MARK: He didn't refer to it as that when Jake started living with us. He was just our boyfriend.
ME: How long was he living with you before you started calling him your boyfriend?
MARK: A week after the first time he came over--
ME: When he had yet to leave--
MARK: When he had yet to leave, we had a talk, and decided that we wanted to all be a couple.
ME: Is that what you wanted or Alex wanted or both?
MARK: I was up for it. I was surprised Alex was, because of his strong feelings about not being open, but I was glad that he was--He looked very happy and I thought this might solve the problems we had with our own intimacy--situation.
ME: What specifically was the problem without going into graphic detail?
MARK: Uh. We both play the same position.
ME: Straight people have it so easy.
MARK: DON'T THEY THOUGH?
ME: Those people will NEVER have to deal with this, and it infuriates me.
MARK: They don't even know what we're talking about right now.
ME: They don't.
MARK: So that's what it was.
ME: Were you worried about bringing somebody into your relationship who could--Oh god, how do I put this without getting yelled at?
MARK: Good luck.
ME: There is something that neither of you can fulfill, sexually, for each other--at least not with the other person being enthusiastic about it, I'm guessing?
MARK: Correct.
ME: Thank you for reading in between the lines.
MARK: You're welcome.
ME: Were you worried about bringing in someone who fulfills this thing that isn't being fulfilled?
MARK: I didn't think of it as being this big thing that needed being fulfilled. I didn't think it was important. We've already touched on that.
ME: Yes.
MARK: And you don't bring another person in to fulfill anything. That makes it sound like--I mean, we could have gotten an escort if we just needed an itch scratched.
ME: Right. I apologize. I needed to phrase that more sensitively.
MARK: It's okay, it's just important I think to be specific about what this was.
ME: To be fair, what this was was you two moving a boy into your house after knowing him for a week. For a night. He had a toothbrush the next day.
MARK: It did go very fast.
ME: And is he younger?
MARK: He's ten years younger than us.
ME: Have you never seen First Wives Club?
MARK: This wasn't that.
ME: You do not let Sarah Jessica Parker move into the guest bedroom. No, no, no.
MARK: It all went really well for the first year.
ME: Were you public about this new relationship?
MARK: Very public.
ME: Was that difficult?
MARK: People had opinions.
ME: But it's kind of fun being talked about.
MARK: You find it fun?
ME: It's like mother's milk to me.
MARK: (Laughs.) You love it.
ME: One time somebody tried to pull me aside after I'd done something stupid and say, as though I would be upset, 'You know, people are talking about you.'
MARK: Did you laugh?
ME: I laughed right in their face.
MARK: That's great.
ME: 'People are talking about you.' I surely hope so. I don't do dumb shit so people won't talk about it.
MARK: I don't think most of our friends cared, but I know some people--we lost a few invites to a few parties.
ME: Really?
MARK: Yes.
ME: How do you even tell friends about this? Do you just say 'We have a boyfriend now?'
MARK: For most part.
ME: I give you credit. Even in 2021, that takes--
MARK: This was a couple of years ago--
ME: I don't think we're at the point where that's not going to get you a side-eye from someone, so good for you.
MARK: Thanks. I'm going through a divorce now, but--
ME: (Laughs.) But the bravery of the moment is what it's really all about.
MARK: That's what matters.
ME: Did you get a sense that a divorce was coming?
MARK: Um. I noticed that Alex and Jake were...hanging out more. One-on-one.
ME: Did it bother you?
MARK: No. I work all the time. I'm always working. I was glad that Alex had somebody to spend time with, because he didn't have a lot of friends. My friends were his friends. I felt bad that he was on his own a lot, and I was glad that he had someone to spend time with.
ME: There was never a red flag moment?
MARK: They were on a trip together, and that me me a little uncomfortable, but--
ME: Did they go with another gay couple?
MARK: No, just the two of them.
ME: Where did they go?
MARK: Italy.
ME: ITALY???
MARK: Yes.
ME: He took. The boyfriend. TO EUROPE. Without you?
MARK: Yes.
ME: And the alarms weren't going off?
MARK: They asked me to go, and I had too much going on.
ME: But they went anyway?
MARK: Yes.
ME: Mark.
MARK: I know.
ME: When did you realize they wanted to break up the relationship and have it be just the two of them?
MARK: When I came home and all the locks were changed.
ME: No.
MARK: Yes, sir.
ME: They did not change the locks?
MARK: They did.
ME: And what did you do?
MARK: Well, there was a note.
ME: What did the note say?
MARK: That they had decided to be a couple without me, and continue living in the house.
ME: Let me tell you something. If you change the locks on me, you're going to have to change the door too, because I am going to kick it down with my bare feet using nothing but the rage in my soul.
MARK: I thought about it.
ME: Let them come home and find me there locked out.
MARK: One of the things the two of them have in common is that they don't like confrontation and I think this was their way of not having to deal with one.
ME: Where did they think you were going to go?
MARK: They know my Mom lives nearby. I went there.
ME: Wasn't it your house?
MARK: The house was in Alex's name.
ME: Not both your names?
MARK: No. There are reasons I won't get into, but Alex was the only name on the house.
ME: Never do that again.
MARK: I learned that lesson.
ME: What was the reaction like in the community?
MARK: A lot of people being smug because they thought 'This was never going to work.'
ME: And what was your response?
MARK: That the thing they thought was what broke us up was not what broke us up. What broke us up was that Alex needed to meet more people and date more people and have more experiences, and you know what? I most likely did too.
ME: Do you regret being married?
MARK: No. I still love Alex. I love Jake too.
ME: Even after they locked you out?
MARK: I didn't love them that day, but I've had some time since then.
ME: Have you spoken with them since that happened?
MARK: Just to get everything in order and get the divorce started.
ME: You were together for a long time though.
MARK: It's hard. I won't say it's not hard, but what can you do? You gotta look forward to what's coming next. That's what I'm trying to do.
ME: Is there anything you want me to ask Alex when I talk to him next week?
MARK: Uh. I do, but I don't know if I want to say it.
ME: Just say it.
MARK: To piggyback on what you were saying earlier, I would ask--Ask him why he thinks a relationship based only on sex is going to work if one that was based only on love didn't work?
ME: That was an Oprah moment.
MARK: You liked that?
ME: I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment--
MARK: Of course you don't.
ME: But I appreciate what you're getting at, and I will be bringing that to the Red Table with Alex.
MARK: Just Alex or Alex and Jake?
ME: Should I talk to him and Jake together?
MARK: I think you should just make sure you talk to Jake at some point.
ME: That's the plan.
Mark is now living in a new house three blocks over from his old one.
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