The Community and the Dirt

 

Two years ago, I started interviewing people in the theater world about the problems within that community.

All the subjects of the interviews remained anonymous to encourage people to speak directly and plainly without worrying that there would be consequences down the line.

(Of course, even then, some people felt like outing themselves and getting in hot water, but we're going to leave that water under another bridge.)

When I decided it was time to bring the series to a close, it was partly because I thought it had run its course, and partly because I had a new topic I wanted to tackle.

While I've had my issues with theater and the people who do it, I've never felt like I didn't belong there, whereas from the moment I came out, I've never truly felt like a part of the gay community.

To be clear, that probably has way more to do with me than the community, but it's something I wanted to explore, and I knew how I wanted to do it.

The theater interviews were always conducted with people who didn't live anywhere near me, and there was a reason for that. We like to think that if we can attach a problem to someone we know, we can fix the problem, and I've never found that to be the case. Problems within systems are not caused by any one person, but the system itself. That's the case in theater, and I believe it's the same for the LGBTQ community.

So I picked a city far from my own, and I started reaching out to gay men in that city. I spent a few months following as many of them as I could on social media, and then I began asking if I could interview them. The goal was to see if we could address some of the issues of the modern gay community and get to the heart of those issues while hopefully find some solutions.

Today I'm going to be speaking with Thomas. It's the third in a series of conversations about a group in the Community known as "The Guest List." If you haven't read the other pieces, please go--

The Community and the Guest List

The Community and the Doublemint Twins

Here's the interview:

ME:  Sorry, I always lose the connection right as the interview starts.

THOMAS:  Is your house haunted?

ME:  It's haunted by the ghosts of angry homosexuals.

THOMAS:  (Laughs.)  They're angry about that shirt, Mama.

ME:  You don't like this shirt?

THOMAS:  What are those things on it?

ME:  Pugs!

THOMAS:  Yes, yes, you like the pugs.

ME:  I can't believe you called them things!

THOMAS:  I can't see what they are. They're too small.

ME:  I have a shirt with one big pug on it.

THOMAS:  Why didn't you wear that?

ME:  Well, if you think this shirt is ugly--

THOMAS:  It's too subtle for me. You got to go bigger.

ME:  You are already the meanest person I've ever talked to.

THOMAS:  Good. I want to be the worst.

ME:  Good to have goals.

THOMAS:  (Laughs.)  How are you, baby?

ME:  I'm okay. How are you?

THOMAS:  After the last two interviews, I'm shook. I'm not going to lie to you.

ME:  I should say--Most of the interviews I do ahead of time, and then based on what gets traction, I do some follow-ups. So this is the follow-up.

THOMAS:  Let everybody know what's up.

ME:  I should also say that you were the person in the screenshots I posted on social media who admitted to sending me information.

THOMAS:  I wasn't the only one talking to you though.

ME:  No, most of the people included in that group message have spoken with me at least once.

THOMAS:  I'm just the only one to fess up.

ME:  I guess so.

THOMAS:  I'm surprised I was even on that message.

ME:  Why?

THOMAS:  Because I have not spent time with any of those people in--There was the pandemic, but even before the pandemic, it had been more than a year.

ME:  What was the reaction to what you posted?

THOMAS:  I don't know. I left the message and blocked [The Host] so I couldn't tell you.

ME:  Brutal.

THOMAS:  (Laughs.)  I'm the worst. I told you that.

ME:  Let's go back--When did you move to the community?

THOMAS:  2018.

ME:  What brought about the move?

THOMAS:  My husband got a job here.

ME:  And how long were you here before you met [The Host]?

THOMAS:  We didn't meet the host--Sorry, you don't like 'We.'

ME:  You can use 'We.'

THOMAS:  I don't want to get yelled at now.

ME:  'We' is fine.

THOMAS:  We didn't meet [The Host] first, we met his boyfriend--sorry, his fiancé, they're engaged now, but they weren't at the time. We met him first.

ME:  Where?

THOMAS:  My husband met him at the gym. I didn't meet him. I don't go to the gym.

ME:  Good for you.

THOMAS:  (Laughs.)  I got things to do, baby.

ME:  (Laughs.)  I honestly do not know the last time I heard a gay man proudly say 'I don't go to the gym.'

THOMAS:  F*** the gym. Like it or leave.

ME:  Your husband must like it.

THOMAS:  He loves it.

ME:  Amazing. Before we get too into it, you are prepared to acknowledge that the Guest List exists?

THOMAS:  It exists.

ME:  What do you know about the Guest List?

THOMAS:  I know pretty much everything.

ME:  And what are you willing to tell me?

THOMAS:  Everything.

ME:  Buckle up.

THOMAS:  Buckle up, baby. Let's do it.

ME:  How long did your husband know [The Host]'s fiancé before he told him about the Guest List?

THOMAS:  I should say that no one tells you about the Guest List. You hear about it in a very casual like way. I didn't hear about it until I had started hanging out with these people for a year, and then somebody says something about a Guest List and I'm like 'Wait, am I on that? That's how I found out I was on one.

ME:  So then--

THOMAS:  That could be because I was always half on the list. I don't think I was a full member.

ME:  You paid discounted dues.

THOMAS:  (Laughs.)  I had a coupon for that s***.

ME:  So then how are you introduced to the larger group?

THOMAS:  My husband had been working out with [The Fiancé] and he tells him 'You should come by this Sunday, we're having a party.'

ME:  Ohhhh boy.

THOMAS:  (Laughs.)  I read your last interview. I was like, 'I know how this goes.'

ME:  What was the party like?

THOMAS:  I will say--that party was okay. We get there.  It--Well, it wasn't okay and it was okay. I didn't see any crazy s*** happening, but there weren't that many people, and it was all inside. We didn't stay long so I don't know if any cuckoo went down.

ME:  Why didn't you stay long?

THOMAS:  This was--You know, I had a bad first impression and I should have listened to my gut. I walk in and I'm the only guy there who isn't--It's all guys. All in good shape. All work out except for like one or two. All white. I'm the only guy there who's not white. I walk in and I can see right away that they were not expecting me.

ME:  Because you had never met [The Fiance]?

THOMAS:  I hadn't met him and my husband does not do social media. They couldn't look him up and see what I looked like, they just knew he had a husband, and they said 'Bring him along' and in walks a chubby Puerto Rican guy. And loud. I'm loud too so--

ME:  So you must have gone over like--

THOMAS:  I was gangbusters, baby. Beginning to end.

ME:  How did that go?

THOMAS:  I will say that I knew enough to, uh--I knew that this was not my bag. This kind of party. My husband is definitely what they were looking for, I think, like he's in great shape, he's quiet, he's white, and he's a doctor. So they were all about him. And [The Host] comes over to introduce himself and, Kevin, the first thing he says after 'Hello' and exchanging names is--'You two make an interesting couple.'

ME:  No.

THOMAS:  Yes, Mama.

ME:  What does that mean?

THOMAS:  You know I asked that. I said 'What does that mean?'

ME:  What did he say?

THOMAS:  Something about energies. Some bulls*** about energies. You have different energies. Get out of here with that, baby. But I didn't say that. I was polite. I'm used to white gay men saying stupid s*** to me, so I brushed it off.

ME:  But what did you think he meant?

THOMAS:  I think he thought the hot doc with the six pack was going to have a twin like the boys you talked to last week.

ME:  The Doublemint Twins?

THOMAS:  I got all the dirt on them, baby, if you want dirt.

ME:  We should save that for the Patreon.

THOMAS:  That's a whole other story, but I'm happy to tell it.

ME:  Getting back to the party, was that comment why you left early?

THOMAS:  I left because I was being treated like I was invisible. People would come up, talk to my husband, make conversation, and they had no interest in me. I wasn't even the one who wanted to leave. My husband goes 'You wanna go?' I said 'Yes, please.' We made up an excuse and we left.

ME:  What happened after that?

THOMAS:  All the boys at the party friended me on my Facebook and the first thing I start getting are DM's saying 'Where's your husband? Why isn't he on here? Is he on Instagram?'

ME:  Wow.

THOMAS:  Not even 'Nice meeting you at the party.' Nothing like that.

ME:  So they're pretty shameless?

THOMAS:  They are, because what's going to happen if they're not? If you get a group of people together, and you all agree to play by the same rules, what do you care if someone like me doesn't like the rules?

ME:  Because your husband isn't on social media, does that mean when they wanted to invite you somewhere, they had to go through you?

THOMAS:  [The Host] had my husband's number, because his fiancé gave it to him, and that's how we would get invited places. But because my husband is the man that he is, when that would happen, he would tell [The Host] 'You need to message Thomas. He handles it when we make plans.' Which is not true, but he wanted to let this guy know that this was not going to be something where they were going to take one of us and not the other.

ME:  Is that what you think would have happened?

THOMAS:  I know it would have happened.

ME:  How?

THOMAS:  Because he would text my husband and tell him--'You should come to this, but Thomas might want to hang back, because it's more of a professional thing.' My husband would go 'Thomas is in medicine too; the research side of it.' Because that's what I do. So to say something professional was going down, but I wouldn't benefit from that didn't make any sense. 'Oh we just think he'd be bored.' 'We?' 'Yeah, yeah, this person and this person and this person is coming.' It would be all people--people on the Guest List--and none of them were doctors or anything like that. He barely ever even tried to cover up his real motives.

ME:  He wanted to get your husband alone?

THOMAS:  Yes.

ME:  Do you think he liked him?

THOMAS:  I know he liked him. My husband is his type--physically.

ME:  Did he ever make advances on your husband?

THOMAS:  Yes.

ME:  Privately or publicly?

THOMAS:  Both.

ME:  When was the first time?

THOMAS:  He texted him a week after that party and asked if we were open.

ME:  He just came out and asked him that?

THOMAS:  Yes. Because he told him that when he and his friends get together, it can get--I don't know what word he used for it, but as if to say--Things go down and are you cool with that? My husband goes 'If we're not cool with it, we'll leave.'  [The Host] goes 'I hope you're cool with it, because I find you attractive.' He didn't say it like that, but you know.

ME:  What did you say when your husband told you about all this?

THOMAS:  I thought it was--I'm embarrassed.

ME:  Why?

THOMAS:  To say what I want to say.

ME:  Just say it.

THOMAS:  I didn't get the feeling I was going to like any of these people, but I wasn't against the idea of having sex with them.

ME:  (Laughs.)  Well, there it is.

THOMAS:  Listen, you ain't gotta like the way a chair looks to sit in it, especially if it's a chair in somebody else's house.

ME:  Wooooo boy.

THOMAS:  Am I in trouble like that COVID gay?  Tell me.

ME:  No, you know what, I think it's honestly very refreshing to hear that point of view, and I whole-heartedly agree with you.

THOMAS:  I feel bad because I knew--You know, I knew right away they weren't good people.

ME:  But who cares?  I'm not judging you for it.

THOMAS:  Thank you, baby.

ME:  But it sounds like--forgive me--It sounds like they wouldn't have been that interested in having sex with you?

THOMAS:  I knew right away that this was going to be--not to overuse the word 'interesting,' but 'interesting' because here's me--I don't look anything like any of them, but I knew they were all hot for my husband and wanted him in their little group, and what were they going to do about me? Then I find out, these were real talks that had happened at the time.

ME:  Talks about whether it was worth including you to get to your husband?

THOMAS:  Yes.

ME:  Wow.

THOMAS:  And a vote.

ME:  Excuse me?

THOMAS:  They took a vote.

ME:  Who is 'they?'

THOMAS:  Everybody on the list at that time?

ME:  They took a vote about whether or not to include you in the sex group?

THOMAS:  I have the emails. I can show you, baby.

ME:  I am--Holy s***.

THOMAS:  (Laughs.)  You gagged?

ME:  Gagged, gobsmacked--

THOMAS:  It gets better.

ME:  Did you win the vote?

THOMAS:  I don't know if you call it 'winning' but--

ME:  But they agreed to let you in?

THOMAS:  They did, apparently. I didn't know about all this until after, so all I knew was we got invited to another party.

ME:  Did you go?

THOMAS:  Yes.

ME:  Did anything--?

THOMAS:  It did, but our--me and my husband, who I love, by the way, because he is nervous as f*** about me talking to you--

ME:  I won't go into details.

THOMAS:  Thank you, and all I was going to say was, our participation was limited to us being with each other while other things were going on around us.

ME:  Okay. But I'm assuming people tried to...make something happen?

THOMAS:  Yes, and we both made it clear that we were not interested in that.

ME:  Then why did you get invited back again?

THOMAS:  [The Host] texted my husband--

ME:  Sorry, first off--Why didn't you participate with the others?

THOMAS:  Because I knew nobody was going to want to do anything with me. It was going to be all about my husband. That party--Let me tell you how it went, and how it always goes. It's usually on a Saturday. You get there early--one or two o'clock in the afternoon. And you drink and you drink and you drink.

ME:  Any drugs?

THOMAS:  Sometimes, but mostly alcohol.

ME:  Okay.

THOMAS:  Then once everybody's wasted, you play a game. Something dumb like Taboo or something.

ME:  I love Taboo!

THOMAS:  I hate Taboo, but it's cause I get aggravated.

ME:  Okay.

THOMAS:  You play Taboo until ten or eleven at night. People are kind of coming down, sobering up, but they're still making like they're drinking, because you don't want people thinking you're about to do anything you're gonna do while you're sober.

ME:  I know that game.

THOMAS:  That's the game.

ME:  That's the real game. 'Pretend to Get Drunk, F*** Up, and Blame the Alcohol.'

THOMAS:  That's the one.

ME:  My college theater department's favorite game.

THOMAS:  Ooooooh, she's got something to say.

ME:  We won't go into it. But what happens after the game?

THOMAS:  After the game, people start hanging all over each other. Little kisses here. People sneaking off then coming back.

ME:  These are all adults, right?

THOMAS:  You know, yes, but that's not how they act. They do all this--It feels like high school. Like when you'd play Spin the Bottle in somebody's basement.

ME:  How long before it all just turns into a bacchanal?

THOMAS:  By then, by the time people are going at it on the couch--there's this big couch down there--it's the size of my first apartment--it could be midnight or one in the morning.

ME:  That's a longass day.

THOMAS:  Boy, you don't even know.

ME:  All that work for an orgy?  Jesus.

THOMAS:  I used to be like 'Can't we just come at midnight when all the good s*** is going on?'

ME:  Couldn't you do that though?

THOMAS:  No, no. You can't. [The Host] tells everybody you have to be there early.

ME:  Why?

THOMAS:  Because I don't think he wants it to be this thing where he's hosting a sex thing. I think he wants to say that he hosted a party and then that other stuff just happened.

ME:  Even though he knew it was going to happen.

THOMAS:  Even though everybody knew that.

ME:  That's like making me sit through Gone with the Wind just so I can watch an episode of Adventure Time.

THOMAS:  I was so tired, Mama, and I don't even drink.

ME:  You did all that sober?

THOMAS:  Yes, I did.

ME:  Were they upset you weren't drinking?

THOMAS:  Yes, they were. They must have offered me--I must have gotten offered a drink twenty times. 'Why don't you drink? Are you an alcoholic?'  I said 'That's none of your business.' 'Then why won't you drink?' Because I'm driving my husband home when all this is over. Why are you drinking? Who's bringing you home? Or are you staying over in the guest room and pissing yourself for the third time so [The Host] can laugh with everybody in a private text about what a mess you are? I don't mean to make fun of somebody if they have a problem, but don't make it a problem that I don't want to drink if I don't want to drink.

ME:  Why do you think they cared if you drank or not?

THOMAS:  It's an agreement, Kevin. We're all going to get drunk. We're all going to hook up. We're all gonna pretend it didn't happen until it happens again. They don't talk about any of this.

ME:  The sex part?

THOMAS:  Yes. They do not talk about it. It's never talked about.

ME:  Are they ashamed or--?

THOMAS:  I don't know. I think it's, you know, nice boys don't do that. These are all people with good jobs. They work hard. They go on Instagram--Here's our puppies. Here's our new house. Some of them are even adopting kids, lord help us. They want to present that to everybody and then they let loose on an ugly couch after they've been drinking cheap vodka all day.

ME:  We should say that wanting to have a public persona and a private life is fine, but that dichotomy might be part of what's breeding this toxicity in terms of wanting to protect the information about what goes on at these parties.

THOMAS:  That's what I'm saying. Who cares if you're having sex parties, Mama? You think straight people don't have sex parties? I'm not saying you gotta tell your boss, but why do we have to do this song and dance every time you want to get cuckoo?

ME:  I like that you say 'get cuckoo.'

THOMAS:  I get that from my friend Miguel. We use it for everything. We'd be at the bar and two people are flirting and he goes 'They're about to get cuckoo.'

ME:  I should call this 'The Community and Getting Cuckoo.'

THOMAS:  A lot of cuckoo too.

ME:  So after the first party where you are there for all the cuckoo--

THOMAS:  (Laughs.)  Yes.

ME:  --But you hang off to the side, why are you asked back?

THOMAS:  [The Host] texted my husband and goes 'You guys were so cute. It's all right to be shy.' My husband was going to say 'We weren't shy. We were uncomfortable with how you were ignoring Thomas,' but he didn't, because, you know, we also want to make friends. We want to know other gay people in the area, and this was--I had talked to some of them more, at the party, and I did get to know some of them, and they were nice. The ones I got to know, and so it wasn't going to be as simple as 'They're all bad. Let's just cut ties.'

ME:  Couldn't you just hang out with the ones you liked?

THOMAS:  No, because everything was about hanging out as a group. Every week--three or four times a week--there's something going on at [The Host]'s house, and if you want to do something, you go there. If you don't go to that, you're not planning your own thing, because if [The Host] finds out, you're going to hear about it.

ME:  Do you know the guy who made the death threats against Scott?

THOMAS:  Yes I do, and I had my own beef with him.

ME:  With Scott or--

THOMAS:  No, no, with the guy.

ME:  We're going to give him a name.

THOMAS:  Let's not.

ME:  (Laughs.)  To make it easier.

THOMAS:  Call him--Who is that dumb guy that's trying to do #WhiteBoySummer?

ME:  You mean Chet Hanks?!?

THOMAS:  Yes!

ME:  I love Chet.

THOMAS:  Baby.

ME:  No, he's like a guilty pleasure. Like, stupid, fratboy, himbos. I love them.

THOMAS:  No, I can't get onboard with that.

ME:  Like I want to throw s*** at his face. Just torture him.

THOMAS:  Okay, now you're talking.

ME:  Like baloney. I want to throw baloney at his face.

THOMAS:  You're into some sick s*** yourself, wow.

ME:  We gotta move on. Let's call death threat guy Chet though. That works.

THOMAS:  There's a backyard party. We're gonna do costumes. I went as Shaggy and my husband goes as Scooby Doo. Cute. Chet walks in and I go 'What is this?' He's wearing a sombrero, a poncho--

ME:  Oh no.

THOMAS:  Oh yes. Fake mustache. The whole thing.

ME:  And he's not--

THOMAS:  He's white. I'm the only guy there--still--that's not white. But I didn't even tell you the part that made me--That's all bad, but--He's got--all around his body--barbed wire and a sign on his back that says 'Just Got Here' or something like that.

ME:  What the ****?

THOMAS:  Yes. I--Kevin, I lose my mind. I don't even go to Chet. I go to [The Host]. I--politely, I think--but I'm heated--I pull him into the bathroom and I go 'Please ask this man to leave.' 'What? Why?' 'Do you see what he's wearing?' 'Oh, that's Chet. He's being stupid. He doesn't know that's offensive.' I'm like, 'Tell him to leave and he'll get it's offensive.' They don't want to tell him to leave. 'He's got a temper and he'll make a thing out of it. It'll ruin the party.' So I'm supposed to stand around with him looking like that? I got a temper too, but I'm not going to be the hot-blooded guy when I'm a guest and the person hosting the party should be--Nobody said anything.

ME:  That's nuts.

THOMAS:  My husband talks to the [The Host]'s fiancé to try and get him to say something. He goes 'Why does your husband care? He's not Mexican, he's Puerto Rican.' I was like, 'You thought I cared because of that? I care because it's ****ed up. My husband cares because it's ****ed up. You should all care because--' But that's when I got it that, like, this is--in a messed up way--this is their safe space to be any kind of nasty people they want to be. They can be shallow. They can be racist. They can let it all hang out. That's when we bolted.

ME:  That was your last party?

THOMAS:  That was our last party, yes. [The Host] kept texting my husband, and my husband told him 'We're good. We don't want to hang out with Chet' and because Chet goes to all the parties--

ME:  Why do they like Chet so much? Not to be mean, but I've seen pictures. He's not as cute as the rest of them.

THOMAS:  But he worships [The Host]. Loves him.

ME:  Is Chet the one who pees himself all the time?

THOMAS:  Yes, because he's a disaster. He needs help so I shouldn't even make fun of him, but he's been very mean to me and, you know, Scott as well, and other people. But he tells [The Host] all the time, 'You're my best friend. I would do anything for you.' That means he isn't going anywhere, because even some of the other people on the Guest List who are, like, diehard--They're not even kissing [The Host]'s ass that much.

ME:  And because [The Host] protects him nobody else will cut him loose?

THOMAS:  Correct. I also think there's a part of it where, it's good to have someone in the group who is the f***-up, you know? They want someone that makes them feel better about themselves, and he's the one who's always between jobs, always being sloppy--

ME:  But isn't that a liability in a group that values secrecy?

THOMAS:  No, because he never messes up in that way. He knows better than that.

ME:  Did the texting continue from [The Host] after you stopped hanging out with them?

THOMAS:  Yes, it did. And he would message me.

ME:  Why didn't you just tell him to get lost?

THOMAS:  Because even if you don't want to be involved in all that, you don't want to make enemies if you don't have to. That was how me and my husband felt about it.

ME:  What kinds of things would [The Host] say when he would text your husband.

THOMAS:  He full-on tried to set him up with another man.

ME:  What?

THOMAS:  He kept telling him about this guy he wanted him to meet that was new to the group. He's handsome. He's a lawyer. I'm like 'That sounds like they're setting you up with him.' They're going 'We think you two would really hit it off.' He got back to them and said 'I'm still married' like maybe they forgot or something, and they came back right away going 'We know. We know. But you never know what might happen.'

ME:  Stop. No.

THOMAS:  I'll show you all these texts.

ME:  'You never know what might happen?'

THOMAS:  That and 'You two don't seem happy.'

ME:  So the solution is to let the leader of a sex cult fix you up with one of his concubines.

THOMAS:  See, he's like--When he wants something, [The Host], he gets it or he dies trying. He does not like being told 'No.' He does not like being out of control.

ME:  Where does that come from?

THOMAS:  I think if you tell yourself, I do everything I have to do to get whatever I want, be that going to the gym every single day, to getting a job where you can make a lot of money, it's like--Those are the two things that get you everywhere when you're a gay man, right? Looks and money. He has both, so, when neither one of those things matter, he gets mad, because to him, it's like, what did I do all this for then? This is a lot of work, and it makes him feel entitled. He's not the only one in the group like that too. Most of them in the group are like that.

ME:  Are you still friends with some people on the Guest List?

THOMAS:  Yes.

ME:  What do they think about all this?

THOMAS:  I think they're happy that the bubble got popped. I really do. It's so much work being friends with everyone in the group and trying to stay on [The Host]'s good side. Being friends with people shouldn't be like that.

ME:  But you do have some friendships now that you're happy with?

THOMAS:  Yes. We're more comfortable here now, and I think, COVID has made us realize that we're happy even if it's just us, but we made some friends in the community during the pandemic that we like a lot, and I just hope I'm not on anymore group messages and then we should be good.

ME:  If you're serious about telling me the Doublemint Twins story, I can call you back tomorrow and we can post something about it on the Patreon.

THOMAS:  For your theater?

ME:  Yes.

THOMAS:  I'll do that. I love theater. You gonna put me onstage?

ME:  You act?

THOMAS:  I'm a star, baby. You don't know that yet?

ME:  No, but I'm starting to get the picture.

THOMAS:  You're lucky you found me.

ME:  But you still hate my shirt.

THOMAS:  It's so ugly, Mama. Let me take you shopping. You get on a plane, and come here, and we'l get you all fixed up.

ME:  It's a date.

Thomas and his husband have started a weekly game night on Zoom where they've met four other guys who are all eager to form an LGBTQI+ group once it's safe to socialize again.

To check out the Doublemint Twins story later this week, sign up for the Patreon by going to www.Patreon.com/EpicTheatreCo