Two years ago, I started interviewing people in the theater world about the problems within that community.
All the subjects of the interviews remained anonymous to encourage people to speak directly and plainly without worrying that there would be consequences down the line.
(Of course, even then, some people felt like outing themselves and getting in hot water, but we're going to leave that water under another bridge.)
When I decided it was time to bring the series to a close, it was partly because I thought it had run its course, and partly because I had a new topic I wanted to tackle.
While I've had my issues with theater and the people who do it, I've never felt like I didn't belong there, whereas from the moment I came out, I've never truly felt like a part of the gay community.
To be clear, that probably has way more to do with me than the community, but it's something I wanted to explore, and I knew how I wanted to do it.
The theater interviews were always conducted with people who didn't live anywhere near me, and there was a reason for that. We like to think that if we can attach a problem to someone we know, we can fix the problem, and I've never found that to be the case. Problems within systems are not caused by any one person, but the system itself. That's the case in theater, and I believe it's the same for the LGBTQ community.
So I picked a city far from my own, and I started reaching out to gay men in that city. I spent a few months following as many of them as I could on social media, and then I began asking if I could interview them. The goal was to see if we could address some of the issues of the modern gay community and get to the heart of those issues while hopefully find some solutions.
Today I'll be speaking with "Scott." He's a transplant who moved to the area for work and found himself in a lot of hot water during his very first month as a member of the community.
Here's the interview:
ME: I don't think people know this, but I usually do a pre-interview before I do the interview so I can get a feel of the person I'm going to be talking to.
SCOTT: Are they always that long?
ME: No, you and I--
SCOTT: We went on.
ME: I had to stop you. I was like--You're going to have to repeat all this when we turn the recorder on.
SCOTT: Once I get going, it's hard to turn me off.
ME: Very much the same.
SCOTT: We're going to get along.
ME: Damn. People like it when I fight.
SCOTT: I like it when you fight too!
ME: I'm sure I'll fight again eventually.
SCOTT: Should we fight? We can find something to fight about.
ME: Let's see. We'll play it by ear.
SCOTT: We'll be open to conflict.
ME: I like that. That's going to be the title of my next book.
SCOTT: Open to Conflict.
ME: You do not seem to be hesitant to, I guess the way to say it would be--put something out there.
SCOTT: I don't like elephants in the room. I don't like not pointing out the obvious. I just--That tension bothers me. I didn't grow up in a house where we would not talk about things. We talked about everything, and--When I first came out, that was one of the parts of being gay that I enjoyed. I felt like people in the gay community were more open to putting it all out on the table.
ME: And do you think you were wrong about that?
SCOTT: I think lately you have groups of gay men who are more into being secretive and not so--not so comfortable talking about sex.
ME: Sex in particular?
SCOTT: I think so?
ME: Because I think it's sex and money.
SCOTT: Oh, money. Definitely. Definitely that. I think you see men who want to put sex out there, but then when you bring it up--that they're putting it out there--they act like 'What are you talking about?'
ME: Like when you ask people how they know each other?
SCOTT: (Laughs.) Like that.
ME: That's your signature, isn't it? That's how I was connected to you. Someone said 'Scott is always asking people how they know each other.'
SCOTT: Because I think it's funny.
ME: Okay, explain that to me.
SCOTT: You're at a--a bar or a club or something--and you're with a friend who just moved to the city, been here a week, hasn't had time to go out and meet anybody, and somebody walks over and goes 'KEVIN, RIGHT?' and it's like--Okay, well how do you think they know each other?
ME: Yes.
SCOTT: And if we were all straight people, we would just say 'How do you two know each other?' But because we're gay, the assumption is, 'They know each other because they talked on an app, they met up, they hooked up, and here they are, and they're going to be embarrassed to say that, so just let them go on talking to each other and act like it's totally normal that these two people have no way of knowing each other but they do.' It's stupid to me, so I just ask. But! In the--Where I lived before, that was my gag. As soon as two people started talking to each other near me, it was 'How do you two know each other?'
ME: It is funny how in a straight environment that question is harmless and in a gay environment it takes on this charge.
SCOTT: Right?
ME: Do you think--to almost play devil's advocate--Do you think you could make the argument that tact is a part of that?
SCOTT: What do you mean?
ME: That maybe two people in a social situation don't necessarily want to talk about how they just saw each other naked twenty-four hours ago and they shouldn't have to?
SCOTT: I just think--Who cares? Who cares who you sleep with? Who cares who you want to sleep with? Especially now, because everything is the apps. That's how everybody meets everybody. Even if it's just Instagram. You're not meeting people anywhere else.
ME: You could.
SCOTT: But most of the time, we're all meeting each other the same way.
ME: That's actually a good segue, because you're--
SCOTT: Look at me segueing.
ME: You're doing my job for me.
SCOTT: You're welcome.
ME: You wanted to meet people in the city after you moved there, and you got invited by a friend to this part at--Who's house was it?
SCOTT: I don't want to say.
ME: Now, you're clamming up?
SCOTT: Kevin, I don't know where this is going.
ME: People aren't going to be able to see this, but your entire body just seized up a little on the Zoom.
SCOTT: This was bad. I'm sweating thinking about it.
ME: So we'll say you were at a house.
SCOTT: I was at a house.
ME: Who was the friend that invited you?
SCOTT: It was--
ME: A guy you met on an app?
SCOTT: (Laughs.) You got me.
ME: Was I right?
SCOTT: We met on Tinder. We went on a date. The date was fun, but we were not a match, and he invited me to go to this party.
ME: Did you know anyone else at the party?
SCOTT: No, just my friend.
ME: What was the party like?
SCOTT: It was great. Nice, big house. I said, when we got there, I said, 'This guy must have money.' My friend says, 'Don't say that. Don't say that. He doesn't like when you talk about him having money.' So see, you're right. Money.
ME: Money.
SCOTT: I'm like, 'I have to watch myself here.' But I still want to have fun. I want to--I don't want to hide my personality. What's the point of that? These people are all going to get to know me anyway. It wasn't a quiet party. You still had people walking around, being loud, jumping in the pool with no clothes on--
ME: So you thought you could let loose a little?
SCOTT: I thought I can't talk about how this guy must be loaded but another guy has his **** out in front of me. This is what I mean when I say you have these different rules. We can't say anything about money or **** and I got one right in front of me.
ME: Was it a sex party?
SCOTT: It was--It was a party that felt like it could have turned into a sex party, but it wasn't a sex party when I got there. But that--I said it before, that tension is there.
ME: Gay men love tension.
SCOTT: They love it.
ME: Sorry, wait, rich boring white gay men love tension.
SCOTT: (Laughs.) Yes.
ME: 'Sex is great, but have you ever created an atmosphere where it felt like people should be having sex but instead we all just stand around for twelve hours.'
SCOTT: STOP! You are going to get killed for that.
ME: What else is new? So you're at the party, and you meet the host.
SCOTT: I meet the host of the party, which I did not know was a try-out.
ME: What do you mean?
SCOTT: All the guys at this party were part of--Okay. Everybody there--It wasn't one of those things where you could just bring anybody. My friend had to ask the host if he could bring me, and everybody there was there on purpose.
ME: So you're saying it was heavily curated?
SCOTT: Yes! Nothing was by chance.
ME: Did you notice similarities between all the guests?
SCOTT: All ripped bodies. All the most beautiful people you've ever seen in your life. Very little diversity. There was, I think, one non-white guy there.
ME: All tiny bathing suits?
SCOTT: All tiny bathing suits. All expensive bathing suits though. The cars on the street were all brand new, all the sunglasses were designer--
ME: Did you feel self-conscious?
SCOTT: Are you calling me poor and ugly?
ME: (Laughs.) Were you thinking to yourself, What is an ugly person like me doing here?
SCOTT: What is an abomination like myself doing here?
ME: (Laughs.) But were you feeling weird as you--
SCOTT: Mama, I got these good genes. I go to the gym. I eat right. You are not going to make me feel bad when it comes to all that, but I don't want to hang out with other people just because they look good. I wasn't excited to be there just because everybody was cute. I was there to make friends.
ME: This wasn't--
SCOTT: This WAS a best friends race.
ME: (Laughs.) What about the money part of it?
SCOTT: Baby, I have money.
ME: Good, you going to sign up for my Patreon?
SCOTT: I want to sign up for that OnlyFans.
ME: Non-existent.
SCOTT: You sure?
ME: (Laughs.) Nobody wants to see that.
SCOTT: I don't know. I heard some stories.
ME: From who?
SCOTT: (Laughs.) You're not the only investigator.
ME: Oh my god.
SCOTT: You're going to edit all this out.
ME: No, I will not.
SCOTT: You don't want people knowing about your alts.
ME: If I looked like you, I would have one, that's for sure.
SCOTT: Aw, you're sweet.
ME: But I look like a hacker on a CBS procedural so--
SCOTT: Go with it. We love a hacker.
ME: Ooookay.
SCOTT: Hack me, Daddy.
ME: This interview is over.
SCOTT: (Laughs.) See, now your clicks are going to go up. You gotta give the people a little flirtation.
ME: Speaking of flirting--
SCOTT: He got it back. We're good.
ME: The host walks up to you--
SCOTT: yes.
ME: What was your impression of him?
SCOTT: Cute but stuffy.
ME: You got stuffy right away?
SCOTT: Right away.
ME: And he's talking to you?
SCOTT: Yes. Nicely enough. Asked me where I was from and that. Then he asks me how I know my friend who I had come there with, and I said 'We met on Tinder' and I see him react.
ME: What do you mean react?
SCOTT: He kind of--
ME: Like he cringes?
SCOTT: A little, yes.
ME: Why?
SCOTT: I didn't know, but see, if I think you're uncomfortable just because I acknowledge that dating apps and other apps exist, I'm just going to keep bringing them up, because get over yourself.
ME: Oh boy.
SCOTT: So I kept saying 'Tinder, Tinder, Tinder' as I was talking to him--
ME: Was your friend getting upset?
SCOTT: He was laughing but he was nervous, I could tell.
ME: And the host was uncomfortable?
SCOTT: He was trying to wrap things up and move away from us, and these two guys come up to us--
ME: Were they naked?
SCOTT: They were not naked. They were very cute. They start talking to him. I don't even think they introduced themselves. I didn't like that. They're talking, talking, talking. They keep bringing up how 'Later on, this is going to happen, and we should do this and--'
ME: What are you leaving out?
SCOTT: They were leaving things out. That's what I'm saying. They kept cutting off their sentences to be like 'You know. You know what I'm saying.'
ME: And you're standing right there.
SCOTT: I'm standing right there like, Do I exist? Am I made of air? Did I melt in the sun?
ME: Did you get mad?
SCOTT: I just did what I always do if I think people aren't paying attention.
ME: Which is what?
SCOTT: Make them pay attention.
ME: Ohhh.
SCOTT: I said, 'Excuse me, I don't mean to interrupt, but are you all talking about ****ing?'
ME: Nooooooo.
SCOTT: Yes, I did.
ME: Whyyyyyyyy?
SCOTT: Because that's what they were doing. They were all talking about ****ing, but they were acting like that's not what they were talking about, and they were being rude, so I decided to remind them I was there.
ME: Oh my god.
SCOTT: You disagree?
ME: I just--I don't know if I could do that.
SCOTT: Don't let people stand in front of you and act like you're not there. Don't you ever let people disrespect you like that. These people didn't even have the decency to introduce themselves. It's not like I screamed out 'Are y'all ****ing?' I just asked.
ME: Were they gagged?
SCOTT: Yes, they were.
ME: What did they say?
SCOTT: One of the two in the couple said, 'Excuse me?' 'I said, 'Excuse you? What do you mean "Excuse me?"' 'Why would you ask that?' 'Why would you stand there grabbing ass and--'
ME: They were grabbing ass?
SCOTT: Oh yeah. One had their arms around the person who was hosting. Kissing his neck. Then the host grabs the other one's ass. They're all saying 'Later on let's go to so-and-so's house once everybody leaves.' And you're offended when I state the obvious?
ME: Was there a fight?
SCOTT: There was--Sorry to your viewers--There was no fight. We kept doing that 'I think you're rude.' 'I think you're rude.' My friend grabs my arm and we leave.
ME: Oh, you left?
SCOTT: We left.
ME: Why did your friend say you had to leave?
SCOTT: He said 'You were making a scene.' I apologized to him, because I really did not want him to feel like I had embarrassed him, but I told him how I felt like it was crazy to say I made a scene when you have some guy grabbing on two people, all these people are naked, people are drinking, and I mentioned the fact that sex exists and people have it and it looked like people at the party were going to be having it, and I'm crossing a line.
ME: And what did he say?
SCOTT: He just kept saying 'You don't do that. You don't do that at ____'s house.' And please don't use his name.
ME: I won't.
SCOTT: He dropped me off. I thought that was it.
ME: Then what happened?
SCOTT: I got a message on Instagram from the host. He--It was a long message. He explained to me, in the message, that how I had behaved was 'disgusting.' That was the word he used. He wanted me to apologize to him and his two friends.
ME: Did you respond?
SCOTT: I did.
ME: What did you say?
SCOTT: Something along the lines of '*** my *** and choke'
ME: Oooof.
SCOTT: Telling me to apologize. I thought it was a joke.
ME: Did he block you after that?
SCOTT: I blocked him.
ME: I heard from people who recommended I talk to you that the party was all anybody talked about.
SCOTT: I didn't know that at the time, because everybody I knew--I had a few friends, but they all stopped talking to me.
ME: Really?
SCOTT: Yes. To this day, none of them talk to me. I have some new friends, but for the most part, the people in the community here do not associate with me.
ME: Why do you think none of them talk to you anymore?
SCOTT: Because I'm not going to pretend I don't know what they're doing.
ME: What are they doing?
SCOTT: Has anybody told you about the Guest List?
ME: No.
SCOTT: Then I need you to stop recording.
ME: Why?
SCOTT: So I can tell you about it.
ME: Can you tell me on the record with anonymity protecting you?
SCOTT: Everybody's going to know who I am.
ME: And you've already said so much on the record and nobody is talking to you, right?
SCOTT: But I don't want to stir this **** up again.
ME: But you knew I'd want to stir the **** up.
SCOTT: I don't want to go into the--the details of that one part of it.
ME: The Guest List?
SCOTT: Yeah.
ME: Is the Guest List tied into the party?
SCOTT: Everybody at the party was on the Guest List.
ME: So it's like a list of--what? Cool people?
SCOTT: Uh--influential people. In the community.
ME: So not all just hot robots?
SCOTT: No, not all, but that's part of how you--how you get involved with all that.
ME: You seem upset now.
SCOTT: I'm anxious. I have anxiety over this, Kevin.
ME: Why?
SCOTT: Why? Because I've had people walk up to me in a bar and knock my drink over then laugh in my face. I've had--
ME: What?
SCOTT: Yes. I've had people send me messages from blank accounts telling me I should move. That I should go kill myself. That I'm trash.
ME: So they're bullying you?
SCOTT: Harassing me.
ME: And you know who it is?
SCOTT: It's everybody.
ME: So--
SCOTT: Not everybody, but--
ME: How many people are on the Guest List?
SCOTT: Kevin, I don't want to talk about this.
ME: Okay.
SCOTT: I'm sorry. I know I was--I'm ashamed to not be able to talk more about this.
ME: I don't want to upset you, so we can stop if you want.
SCOTT: I don't know all about it either. I know there are the guys on the list and the guys who want to be on the list, and everybody wants to be on the list.
ME: Because you can go to fun parties if you're on the list.
SCOTT: Parties. And people who are on the list can only date other people on the list.
ME: What?
SCOTT: Date and sleep with.
ME: That's like a cult.
SCOTT: It is like a cult, I think.
ME: And were people being told to harass you?
SCOTT: I don't know.
ME: What else has happened?
SCOTT: I've had paint thrown on my house. My car has been vandalized.
ME: You're kidding me.
SCOTT: I don't know if it's all connected, but I know some of it is.
ME: When you have people openly harassing you in public though, what do you do?
SCOTT: I got into a fight with one of them.
ME: Physical?
SCOTT: Yes.
ME: And what happened?
SCOTT: I got thrown out and banned from one of the bars here. One of the most--The bar everybody goes to.
ME: Did you explain that you were being harassed?
SCOTT: I said, 'This man came up to me and checked me so hard I was slammed up against a wall and my phone landed on the ground and cracked. I shoved the guy back.' They didn't care. That guy was allowed to stay.
ME: What the ****?
SCOTT: I should say one of the owners of that bar is on the Guest List. I might as well say that since we're saying things.
ME: But you do have some allies in the community?
SCOTT: Yes, because more people are seeing this for what it is. But you still have this fracturing in the community, because we have to dismantle this group to start building a better place for the queer people here, because they're not welcome. The gay people are welcome, the queer people are not. They feel that way because they know who's calling the shots. It's the rich, white men who all look alike.
ME: And the heteronormative ones probably.
SCOTT: Yes.
ME: Well, you know, I'm really good at dismantling things if you need a little help with that.
SCOTT: That's why I did want to talk to you.
ME: I just need the list.
SCOTT: (Laughs.) These ******* are mean, Kevin. You have no idea.
ME: You did promise me a fight. Do you know the names?
SCOTT: I know a few names.
ME: Let's start with that host.
SCOTT: Oh, you want to go right to the top.
ME: Cut off the head, right?
SCOTT: (Laughs.) You look ready, Mama.
ME: Buckle up.
Scott is in the process of selling his house and considering a move outside the city.
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