Two years ago, I started interviewing people in the theater world about the problems within that community.
All the subjects of the interviews remained anonymous to encourage people to speak directly and plainly without worrying that there would be consequences down the line.
(Of course, even then, some people felt like outing themselves and getting in hot water, but we're going to leave that water under another bridge.)
When I decided it was time to bring the series to a close, it was partly because I thought it had run its course, and partly because I had a new topic I wanted to tackle.
While I've had my issues with theater and the people who do it, I've never felt like I didn't belong there, whereas from the moment I came out, I've never truly felt like a part of the gay community.
To be clear, that probably has way more to do with me than the community, but it's something I wanted to explore, and I knew how I wanted to do it.
The theater interviews were always conducted with people who didn't live anywhere near me, and there was a reason for that. We like to think that if we can attach a problem to someone we know, we can fix the problem, and I've never found that to be the case. Problems within systems are not caused by any one person, but the system itself. That's the case in theater, and I believe it's the same for the LGBTQI+ community.
So I picked a city far from my own, and I started reaching out to gay men in that city. I spent a few months following as many of them as I could on social media, and then I began asking if I could interview them. The goal was to see if we could address some of the issues of the modern gay community and get to the heart of those issues while hopefully find some solutions.
Today I'm going to be looking into the (alleged) disappearance of a man named Abe. If you didn't check out last week's talk, be sure and do that by going to The Community and The Lost Boy . This week, I'm going to be speaking with "AJ" who is the leader of a group I'm calling The Lost Boys.
Here's the interview:
ME: Hi, thank you for agreeing to do this.
AJ: I'm excited! I read your theater series.
ME: Oh, thank you.
AJ: I thought the whole thing was fake until you spoke to my friend [Name].
ME: It's like the pandemic. Nobody believes it's real until someone you know gets sick.
AJ: Are you COVID in that analogy?
ME: I'm COVID in every analogy.
AJ: I liked your talk with her. She sent me the link and I read--I had a plane ride or something, I think, and I went back and read all the other interviews.
ME: So you're a fan?
AJ: (Laughs.) I am a fan! I didn't know you were doing this series though--until [Name] called me.
ME: Well this is going to be published once I'm done with it. I'm trying to do all the interviews first and then post them.
AJ: That's interesting. Why did you decide to do it that way?
ME: It gives me more control and I'm a control freak.
AJ: I'm the same way. I get that.
ME: Let's get the basics out of the way first. How old are you?
AJ: I am thirty-eight. I'll be thirty-nine in December.
ME: And how long have you been living in The Community?
AJ: This is my second time living here, because I went to college here. After that I went to [Name of City] and [Another City] for two years, and then I came back.
ME: And is that when you started The Lost Boys?
AJ: I started The Lost Boys with my friend [Name] as--It was just the two of us at first. We liked to go on adventures together. Have fun. Make memories. More people started coming along with us, and that was how the group was formed.
ME: And how long ago was that?
AJ: That was in 2006.
ME: So the group has been around for a long time?
AJ: Going on fifteen years, yes.
ME: What's the mission of the group?
AJ: It's the same mission we had when it was just me and [Name]--Challenge yourself. Better yourself. Challenge your fears and preconceived notions.
ME: Notions about what?
AJ: About what you can and can't do. About what the world tells you that you can and can't do.
ME: Was it always primarily gay men in the group?
AJ: It's strictly gay men.
ME: Why is that?
AJ: Because it's a safe space for gay men to interact with other gay men and not feel judged.
ME: What are some of the things the group does?
AJ: We go on retreats. We travel. We've been all around the world. When we're not traveling, we organize outings locally here in [Name of City]. Should I not say what city it is?
ME: I'll edit it out.
AJ: Oh, yes yes. We have a Book Club. We do mini-retreats where we'll go on day trips or do fun things--fun activities. We go to concerts together. We do everything together.
ME: So it's like a vacation group?
AJ: No, I wouldn't say that. It's more goal-driven than that.
ME: How so?
AJ: Every trip we take has the same goals. We're trying to discover ourselves in fear.
ME: What does that mean?
AJ: We practice extreme behavior until it becomes less extreme?
ME: Do people ever get hurt?
AJ: You have to be willing to experience pain if you want to grow.
ME: Is that before or after the comet takes you to Mars?
AJ: (Laughs.) I know how it sounds.
ME: It sounds like a cult.
AJ: No cult. I don't want any of these people living with me and I would never ask anybody to wear a bathrobe.
ME: But when you say extreme behavior--
AJ: We swim with sharks. We rollerblade on mountains. We get naked and go camping with only a backpack. No tent. We try to find out what our limits are.
ME: And drugs?
AJ: What about drugs?
ME: Are drugs a part of all that?
AJ: Define drugs.
ME: ...Drugs?
AJ: There are a lot of--
ME: How do you define drugs?
AJ: I don't think anything's a drug if it's organic.
ME: So cocaine would be okay then?
AJ: Cocaine would be okay if you want to do cocaine. We don't force anybody to do anything.
ME: Do you ever do ecstasy?
AJ: As a group? No. We don't do drugs as a group.
ME: The person I spoke with--
AJ: A member?
ME: No.
AJ: All right.
ME: They said that there is a culture of drug use within the group.
AJ: I don't agree.
ME: Is there a lot of drug use?
AJ: I don't know what everyone does with their own individual time, but we do not mandate drug use as part of participating in the retreats.
ME: Do you do drugs on the retreats?
AJ: I have.
ME: So you never do drugs together as a group?
AJ: Not what I would consider to be drugs.
ME: Have you done something as a group that I might consider to be collective drug use?
AJ: What do you consider collective drug use?
ME: Hallucinogens, maybe?
AJ: We've taken advantage of the benefits of hallucinogens, yes.
ME: When would you do them as a group?
AJ: On some of the retreats.
ME: Some or all?
AJ: Some.
ME: Not most?
AJ: Uh. I don't think most, no, not as a group.
ME: How big is the group currently?
AJ: The last time I checked the dues, we had somewhere near forty members in good standing.
ME: There are dues?
AJ: Yes.
ME: How much are the dues?
AJ: It has to do with how long you've been in the group, because the cost goes down the longer you're in the group.
ME: How much is it when you first join?
AJ: (Laughs.) I didn't know you were going to want all the details, Kevin.
ME: And you read all my other interviews?
AJ: You didn't ask people about their financial matters.
ME: Yes, I have.
AJ: I must have missed that one.
ME: Maybe. How much if I wanted to join right now.
AJ: Do you want to join?
ME: Sure. I'd love to discover myself through fear.
AJ: We'd love to have you.
ME: And the dues for that would be--?
AJ: Ten thousand plus fees.
ME: Ten thousand dollars to join?
AJ: Yes.
ME: How...Okay, wow.
AJ: It goes down over time.
ME: Who can afford that?
AJ: We have a very healthy membership and a waiting list to join.
ME: What do you get for the ten thousand dollars?
AJ: You get a membership.
ME: But what does the membership get you?
AJ: You are able to attend any of the retreats.
ME: Does it cover the cost of traveling to the retreats?
AJ: No.
ME: Lodging? Food?
AJ: No.
ME: So you're just paying to hang out with all of you?
AJ: And attend the seminars we hold on the retreats.
ME: You hold seminars?
AJ: Yes.
ME: What happens at the seminars?
AJ: We bring in speakers. Healers. Physical trainers.
ME: Therapists?
AJ: Not therapists, no.
ME: Why not?
AJ: I don't see how that would be useful to the members.
ME: Do you choose where the retreats take place?
AJ: There is a small group of us who plan out the trips for the year. We have a meeting amongst ourselves over the summer and we plan up to the next summer.
ME: And the activities?
AJ: Yes.
ME: Who decides if new members can join or not?
AJ: What do you mean?
ME: You don't just let anybody join, right?
AJ: If you're on the waiting list and you have the registration fee--
ME: I read online that some people have been waiting to join and haven't gotten in and others seem to have cut the line--
AJ: I don't know how anyone would know that. We don't make the waiting list public.
ME: Are there people you wouldn't let join?
AJ: No. Anyone can join.
ME: How is it you manage to have an entire group of supermodels then?
AJ: (Laughs.) I wouldn't say I'm a supermodel, Kevin.
ME: Everyone in the group is in incredible shape.
AJ: That's part of the mission of the group. Cherish the body, cherish the mind, cherish the spirit.
ME: Is that part of the mission?
AJ: Members work out together and some of our members work out a lot.
ME: That's how everyone gets in shape together?
AJ: It's one way.
ME: Do your members ever recruit people to join the group?
AJ: They encourage others to join. If you experience something you love and that's changed your life, why wouldn't you want to share that with others?
ME: Should I hold up a sign that says 'Cult' whenever you say something like that?
AJ: People behave the same way with church.
ME: You say that as if I don't think churches can be cults.
AJ: You're writing about a community. We're a community within the Community.
ME: A community not a cult?
AJ: Yes.
ME: Do you remember Abe?
AJ: I do, yes.
ME: What do you remember about him?
AJ: He was a sweet, sweet guy. He was one of the--Just the sweetest guy you've ever met.
ME: And he was recruited to join the group?
AJ: Not by me, but I know he was introduced to the group through other members, and we were excited to have him as a member.
ME: Did he go through the waiting list process and the--
AJ: I don't know if we had a waiting list when he wanted to join. We haven't always had a waiting list.
ME: How do people get off the waiting list? Do people leave the group?
AJ: Yes. People move. They get busy. They have other things they need to focus on.
ME: How much interaction did you have with Abe when he was in the group?
AJ: I--Unfortunately, I can't have a lot of involvement with any one member, because I'm the Head of the group, and that means, I need to spread my attention throughout the group.
ME: But you do remember him?
AJ: I said 'Yes,' I remember him.
ME: Did you have conversations with him?
AJ: Yes.
ME: Did he seem happy to be in the group?
AJ: Very happy.
ME: Do you remember the trip to Tulum?
AJ: I remember it being a productive retreat.
ME: Do you remember Abe on that particular trip?
AJ: What would there be to remember?
ME: Did he seem upset?
AJ: Nobody was upset. These retreats are positive experiences for everyone.
ME: But he could have just been in a bad mood?
AJ: Not that I remember, but that's based on what I saw.
ME: He told his ex-boyfriend that it was going to be his last trip with the group.
AJ: I wasn't aware of that.
ME: If somebody wants to leave the group, what's the process for that?
AJ: They would let the membership manager know.
ME: Who is that?
AJ: Are you interested in joining?
ME: I'm interested in speaking with them.
AJ: I can put you in touch with them.
ME: Thank you.
AJ: I am a little short on time, Kevin. I'm sorry.
ME: Just a few more questions. Did you notice Abe had left the group after that?
AJ: A lot of people come and go. It's not unusual and I don't notice everyone who stays and leaves.
ME: But you thought he was a very sweet guy.
AJ: Part of why I don't always notice is because not everyone goes on every retreat. I might--I might say to someone, 'I haven't seen this person in a long time' and it turns out they're not with us anymore, but by then, how would I know? They're long gone. But what I will say is that if Abe wanted to leave after Tulum I would be surprised.
ME: Why?
AJ: Because Tulum was the first trip after membership renewal. I don't know why he would have paid to renew his membership if he was planning on leaving after that.
ME: He did say that he had paid for the trip.
AJ: That's the trip. The membership would be much more expensive.
ME: Was that his first renewal?
AJ: It would be his first or second, because he wasn't with us long.
ME: So you had a sense of how long he was in the group?
AJ: I knew he was a newer member, and that meant his membership dues were going to be full-price for the first five years.
ME: So at the end of those five years, he would have paid fifty thousand dollars to be in the group?
AJ: Yes.
ME: What do you do with those membership fees?
AJ: We organize the trips.
ME: A travel agent can do that for a lot less than fifty thousand dollars a person.
AJ: They don't have travel agents anymore, do they?
ME: They have laptops and I know how to use HotelsTonight. Do you want to hire me?
AJ: We also buy our members outfits every year. We get them access to events that are otherwise exclusive. We all went to Coachella together.
ME: But did the cost of membership cover the Coachella admission or--
AJ: It's details, Kevin. Don't get buried in the details.
ME: But that's where the devil is, right?
AJ: The devil is in a lot of places.
ME: Speaking of that, is there a religious element to this group?
AJ: No. We don't recognize any religion other than self-spiritual growth and discovery.
ME: Then why does everybody wear a cross around their neck?
AJ: That's not a cross.
ME: What is it then?
AJ: That I can't tell you.
ME: I mean, it's clearly a cross.
AJ: It's not. What else can I tell you?
ME: Do you know why Abe disappeared after the trip to Tulum?
AJ: I don't even know that he disappeared. He may have just moved.
ME: Do you know where he would have moved to?
AJ: No, but I wish him well.
ME: When was the last time you saw him?
AJ: We had our last seminar after a trip to the ruins. It was right on the beach. Then we hugged, and that was it. We all went back to pack.
ME: And you went to the airport together?
AJ: No.
ME: Did you see him at the airport?
AJ: I didn't see anybody at the airport, but I didn't leave until the following week.
ME: Do you know who went to the airport with Abe?
AJ: I don't. Everybody leaves separately based on when people can get flights. Some people get flights for less money and some do what I did and stay for a little longer.
ME: So you don't all come together and leave together?
AJ: No, we have more freedom than that.
ME: Do you know who Abe was staying with?
AJ: He would have been required to get his own room so he wouldn't have been staying with anyone.
ME: Why are people required to get their own rooms?
AJ: We want them to have the chance to reflect at the end of each day without having to contend with roommates and how that might distract them.
ME: Are you worried about members shacking up together?
AJ: Our members don't fraternize.
(A beat.)
ME: What?
AJ: That's a rule. This is a brotherhood. We don't fraternize.
ME: You're kidding.
AJ: I'm not.
ME: You're telling me a bunch of hot gay men go on trips together to exotic locations, run around naked, and nobody checks the oil?
AJ: We don't allow for distractions.
ME: Abe was living with two other members.
AJ: And they're permitted to do that.
ME: Are they permitted to have sex when they're not on these retreats?
AJ: If they do, we ask that they consider leaving the group.
ME: Can I ask where you live?
AJ: Where I live? Like my address?
ME: Yes.
AJ: I live at 35 West.
ME: That's what I thought.
AJ: A lot of people live there.
ME: Yes, Abe lived there.
AJ: Did he?
ME: Yes, he did. You didn't know that?
AJ: I didn't. It's a big building.
ME: Popular address.
AJ: A lot of gay men live there in [Name of City]. It's right in the neighborhood where everybody hangs out.
ME: So you never saw Abe in the building?
AJ: I didn't.
ME: So Abe would have been staying by himself in Tulum and he could have arrived there by himself and left by himself?
AJ: He could have.
ME: Aren't there safety concerns doing things that way?
AJ: How so?
ME: How so? People could go missing and you'd have no idea that--
AJ: We don't have rules about people traveling together. They can travel together. Some do, some don't.
ME: Has anyone you know spoken to Abe recently?
AJ: That I know? No.
ME: Would the membership manager be able to tell me when he ended his membership?
AJ: Yes.
ME: If--
AJ: If Abe is missing, why hasn't anyone contacted the police?
ME: His ex-boyfriend did. They didn't do anything.
AJ: Oh. Then maybe that should be the end of it.
ME: I mean, I don't think the police deciding not to do their job is a reason to stop looking into something. If we left everything up to the police, Dahmer would have a fast food chain by now.
AJ: So you're the police?
ME: I'm just doing my best to figure out where Abe is.
AJ: Do you know that he wants people to find out where he is?
ME: Well, once I find him, I can ask him that.
AJ: I like to let people walk their path in peace.
ME: We don't know that he is in peace. Something could have happened to him.
AJ: Then there are people who can look into that.
ME: Yes. Me. I'm the people.
AJ: Well I hope he is happy wherever he is. He was--He had many things that he was dealing with when he was with us.
ME: What kind of things?
AJ: I don't feel comfortable sharing that. We do maintain confidentiality when it comes to things shared in the group.
ME: But didn't you just break confidentiality by telling me--
AJ: I'm only giving you my opinion of him.
ME: That he was sweet but troubled?
AJ: Not troubled. Unfocused. I thought he could use the group to find focus.
ME: By swimming with sharks?
AJ: You need great focus when you're swimming with sharks.
ME: Don't I know it.
AJ came under fire shortly after this interview for organizing a Lost Boys trip while the pandemic was still in its early stages.
For more insight into this series, check out The Community Podcast on the Epic Patreon. Sign up by going to www.Patreon.com/EpicTheatreCo
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