Things sure do move fast these days.
Yesterday I posted what I thought was going to be the final interview about a college theater program and the Professor running it.
If you haven't read the series, I suggest doing so first, in this order--
http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2019/12/theater-and-alumni.html
http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2019/12/theater-alumni-and-professor.html
http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2019/12/theater-and-college-student.html
Now, what I couldn't tell you yesterday was that before I posted the interview, I had already been made aware that audio recordings were circulating providing proof that this Professor had been slandering former students to current students in and outside of class.
I was aware that as I was posting my interview, four currently enrolled students were taking these recordings to the higher-ups at their school.
What I didn't expect was that as soon as the Professor in question became aware of these recordings, they decided to resign.
As soon as I heard about that, I got on the phone with the former student who I had spoken with initially and in the second part of this series.
They're an accomplished actor with several Broadway shows under their belt, and I wanted to hear their thoughts on what had transpired.
ME: Hi there.
THEM: Hey!
ME: Merry Christmas.
THEM: Merry @#$%-ing Christmas.
ME: Do you believe all this?
THEM: Never in my--Kevin, I have done a lot in my life that I never thought I'd get to do. I've achieved so many personal goals and professional goals and--Never did I ever think that I would see this man leaving his position in this way. In disgrace--really. I can't even--I can't even really deal with what's happening right now. It's a dream come true.
ME: What would you say to people who are looking at this saying that it's a shame somebody with a career as long as his is seeing it evaporate like this?
THEM: I'd say that he still gets his retirement. He's well over retirement age, and he's choosing to resign, which just means early retirement. I wouldn't be surprised if they still threw him a party. I know other--other students who went to the school and some who are still there are defending him. That's their choice. Nobody was asking him to resign. We--I--and a lot of other people, including you--were asking him to at least think about changing his ways. He didn't want to--just like many other people in power--in positions of power--they would rather go down a martyr than change with the times and do the right thing. That's what he's doing. I have no sympathy for him. He's not going to wind up on the streets. He'll be just fine. One day he was going to have to retire anyway--or die--but it would have taken awhile, and he would have been able to harm a lot more people in that time--so I think this worked out well for everyone, maybe even him.
ME: Have you been in contact with former students who defended him?
THEM: Yes, and this is where I turn into a real bitch, so please forgive me. Um. I'm a working actor. I'm a working artist. I have a career in the arts. If you went through the program I went through and you called yourself a singer or actor or dancer and now you're sitting in a cubicle doing grant writing, then good for you, but I would argue that clearly you didn't wind up where you wanted to wind up, so please sit the #$% down and shut up. It's fine for people to choose a different path after college, but some of these people are so brainwashed, they gave up on their dreams because they were ill-equipped to survive in their chosen field and that's because of this man, and now they're saying how much they love him and what a great teacher he was. If he was such a great teacher, why are you and your 50,000 dollar theater degree working as a receptionist, Susan? That's not me being a snob. I've had those jobs. I'll probably have one of those jobs again. But this is a man who told a girl on graduation day that she should take the secretary position her uncle was offering her because theater is hard to make a living in.
ME: Wow.
THEM: Wow is right. Imagine handing somebody something and then saying 'But that's probably not going to work, so you should go buy something else.' On the day you bought it. I can't talk to these people. They're saying 'I love him.' 'He was so nice to me.' 'He was at my wedding.' What does all that matter if you didn't learn anything from him? You're not at school to have a second set of parents. You're not there to have your professors be your friends and invite you over their house and take you out for coffee. You're there to learn from them. If that other stuff happens, great. But to walk away with nothing and say 'He was great. He bought me a sandwich once' is so #$%-ing stupid, I can't even begin to argue about it.
ME: What do you think is going to happen now that he's gone?
THEM: I haven't been there in so long I don't know what the atmosphere is there, but just the thought of him not walking down those hallways and not spending twenty minutes in a class berating a student because they don't look or sound the way he thinks they should is so--It's very moving to me. I wish I could be there to see it.
ME: Have you had any conversations with the administration at the school?
THEM: I plan out reaching out after the new year. I'm hoping that now they'll want to hear what myself and other alumni--people who are actually working in the field--have to say about the program and what needs to be changed.
ME: Any interest in going back and teaching?
THEM: I would happily go back and do a class. I don't want to be a full-time professor, but I would love to go back now--even just for a class--to help them get started righting this train, because it's been on the wrong track for a long time.
ME: You know, a lot of people have reached out to me and said 'This sounds like my school.' Some people were convinced I was talking to someone from the college they went to.
THEM: Isn't it sad? This is happening all over the place and there's nothing--and I'm sure it's not just theater. Colleges are allowed to operate as their own little islands where they can make whatever rules they want, and as long as nobody's being outwardly abused or harassed--I mean, that's happening too--but the bar shouldn't be that high for when somebody needs to step in and says 'Wait a minute, things are not going the way they're supposed to here.' When you look at how much we regulate what high school students and middle school students need to learn and what we expect from their teachers, and then you go to college, where everybody is paid ten times more and there are a fraction of the rules and guidelines. These students in this program--or me when I was there--we had no recourse to do something about this man other than go to the administration, who was always going to back him up without the kind of evidence these kids had with this audio they recorded, and even then, they might have backed him up.
ME: So you're saying college is a scam?
THEM: (Laughs.) College is a scam.
ME: Have you reached out to the student in my last interview? Or have they connected to you? I know they asked me for your contact information and--
THEM: I have. We had a great talk. I let them know I would be here for them--whatever they need. I gave them my personal phone number and I told them that when they're back to school in the spring, if anybody gives them @#$%, I'm happy to come visit and knock some heads.
ME: I said the same thing.
THEM: Look at us threatening to beat up college students.
ME: I mean--with love.
THEM: (Laughing.) With love.
ME: I really don't think that'll happen though, because--I feel like when something of this magnitude occurs, it's like--the spell's been lifted. If they can get a decent replacement in there, it could create a whole new environment.
THEM: I hope they do.
ME: What was going through your mind during that last conversation we had with him?
THEM: That I was--That things aren't like movies. That you want people to change, but that, most of the time, they're not going to. I think maybe sometimes you have to change everything around a person if you want to change the person themselves, and this was someone completely in charge of everything and everyone around him. I don't think change was possible there. You know, power is a drug, and when you try to take it away from people, they're going to do things and act out in--in ways you'd never believe they would.
ME: Like coaching students to lie to somebody interviewing them?
THEM: That--Yes, that's important, because--despite everything I've said to you about him--and to others about him--I never thought he'd do that. I don't think he would normally do something that bad, but he read the writing on the wall. He knew what was coming. We were backing him into a corner and he, like I said, either needed to change--which in this case ties into power, because it means giving up power--or he needed to walk away. He didn't want to walk away, and so he got desperate. Desperate people do really ugly things.
ME: That's when I was like 'You gotta go.'
THEM: (Laughs.) I've been 'You gotta go' for twenty years, but I'm glad you joined the party.
ME: I was trying to--I guess I haven't given up hope that people can change. But in this case, I think you're right. I didn't see change happening. I saw him resisting change, and using his students as a human shield.
THEM: Did you hear what he did before he resigned?
ME: No.
THEM: He posted the cast list online for the spring show. They haven't even had auditions yet. He just posted who he would have cast and in what roles.
ME: Are you kidding me?
THEM: No. He let everybody know who they would have been if he had been allowed to stay, because, you know, chances are they're going to bring in a new director or maybe even change the show, and that cast isn't going to be final. Not when they haven't even tried out yet.
ME: So was that his way of getting all the students who were given these, like, imaginary leads, onto his side?
THEM: That's his way, I think, of creating a little bit more chaos and a little bit more division before he took off, yes.
ME: That is so nasty.
THEM: Isn't it? He put at the bottom of--I have to send it to you--it was still up on the school message board when I checked this morning--He put at the bottom of it 'Congratulations to my students' and the word 'my' is in italics.
ME: Oh my god.
THEM: It's evil. It really is.
ME: But also just silly.
THEM: Not when you know what a cast list means to a bunch of college students.
ME: (Laughs.) Oh, believe me, I know.
THEM: That is like stabbing all of them in the hearts. I hope the school takes it down, but the damage is done.
ME: Do you think he'll try finding work somewhere else?
THEM: I hope not. Like I said, I assume he's retiring. He doesn't have to work. That would be his choice.
ME: Some people wanted to know if there was ever any evidence of inappropriate behavior in terms of physical behavior or sexual behavior.
THEM: No. None. It never got to that level with anyone. Although he did have someone from my class living with him for all of senior year, which was--I can't say it wasn't nice, because the guy was struggling financially and he helped him out, but looking back, I still feel like it wasn't a great idea. I'm sure he could have thought of other ways to help him get housing, but I will say, he wasn't all bad. He had moments where he showed a much kinder side. This kind of thing is very complicated, but I think that if you hurt even one person as badly as he hurt me or...I'm sorry.
ME: It's okay.
THEM: I think it shouldn't take, you know, hundreds of people before you say 'Something needs to be done about this person.' I think if you break someone's spirit--even one person--you need to answer for that. Dealing with systemic problems is something we're all talking a lot about right now. The problems with institutions--like colleges. That's great. It's good to have those conversations. But we can't forget that if one person in power hurts one other person, then that's enough for somebody to step in and say 'No, you can't do that.' It shouldn't have to rise to the level of systemic or institutional. One person should be enough.
ME: I think this is when we remind people that if someone says to you 'Hey, this person treated me badly' and your response is 'Well, that wasn't my experience,' you're a terrible person.
THEM: You are a terrible @#$%-ing person.
ME: I'm just throwing that in there for the Rhode Island people who like to pose for photos with predators they think can get them jobs.
THEM: When is THAT interview happening?
ME: 2020 is right around the corner.
THEM: I can't wait.
ME: Is it difficult when you have people who say 'Oh, I liked that he was hard on me. I like that he tore me down. I need that.'
THEM: If that's what you need, then by all means, ask for it and receive it. But by no means should it be assumed that somebody needs to be treated badly in order to learn or to grow.
ME: I always say anything you can learn through abuse, you can learn through kindness.
THEM: Yes. If someone comes to you and says 'I need you to yell and shout at me for me to get what you're saying' you should say to them 'Let me prove you wrong. Let me show you it doesn't need to be that way for you to get better.' Tell them that they probably feel that way because at some point in their life they were abused and they were mistreated and that's why they think it's good for them. For #$%'s sake, do not continue to abuse them just because they're asking for it and it's easier for you than taking the time and energy to teach them the right way.
ME: Hey--I love you.
THEM: I love you. Thank you for doing this.
ME: Thank you and thanks to the student who spoke with me. I hope they're reading this.
THEM: I hope they are too. They're my hero. I told them that on the phone.
ME: Here's to a better spring.
THEM: Cheers to that.
Them is looking forward to next year.
Yesterday I posted what I thought was going to be the final interview about a college theater program and the Professor running it.
If you haven't read the series, I suggest doing so first, in this order--
http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2019/12/theater-and-alumni.html
http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2019/12/theater-alumni-and-professor.html
http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2019/12/theater-and-college-student.html
Now, what I couldn't tell you yesterday was that before I posted the interview, I had already been made aware that audio recordings were circulating providing proof that this Professor had been slandering former students to current students in and outside of class.
I was aware that as I was posting my interview, four currently enrolled students were taking these recordings to the higher-ups at their school.
What I didn't expect was that as soon as the Professor in question became aware of these recordings, they decided to resign.
As soon as I heard about that, I got on the phone with the former student who I had spoken with initially and in the second part of this series.
They're an accomplished actor with several Broadway shows under their belt, and I wanted to hear their thoughts on what had transpired.
ME: Hi there.
THEM: Hey!
ME: Merry Christmas.
THEM: Merry @#$%-ing Christmas.
ME: Do you believe all this?
THEM: Never in my--Kevin, I have done a lot in my life that I never thought I'd get to do. I've achieved so many personal goals and professional goals and--Never did I ever think that I would see this man leaving his position in this way. In disgrace--really. I can't even--I can't even really deal with what's happening right now. It's a dream come true.
ME: What would you say to people who are looking at this saying that it's a shame somebody with a career as long as his is seeing it evaporate like this?
THEM: I'd say that he still gets his retirement. He's well over retirement age, and he's choosing to resign, which just means early retirement. I wouldn't be surprised if they still threw him a party. I know other--other students who went to the school and some who are still there are defending him. That's their choice. Nobody was asking him to resign. We--I--and a lot of other people, including you--were asking him to at least think about changing his ways. He didn't want to--just like many other people in power--in positions of power--they would rather go down a martyr than change with the times and do the right thing. That's what he's doing. I have no sympathy for him. He's not going to wind up on the streets. He'll be just fine. One day he was going to have to retire anyway--or die--but it would have taken awhile, and he would have been able to harm a lot more people in that time--so I think this worked out well for everyone, maybe even him.
ME: Have you been in contact with former students who defended him?
THEM: Yes, and this is where I turn into a real bitch, so please forgive me. Um. I'm a working actor. I'm a working artist. I have a career in the arts. If you went through the program I went through and you called yourself a singer or actor or dancer and now you're sitting in a cubicle doing grant writing, then good for you, but I would argue that clearly you didn't wind up where you wanted to wind up, so please sit the #$% down and shut up. It's fine for people to choose a different path after college, but some of these people are so brainwashed, they gave up on their dreams because they were ill-equipped to survive in their chosen field and that's because of this man, and now they're saying how much they love him and what a great teacher he was. If he was such a great teacher, why are you and your 50,000 dollar theater degree working as a receptionist, Susan? That's not me being a snob. I've had those jobs. I'll probably have one of those jobs again. But this is a man who told a girl on graduation day that she should take the secretary position her uncle was offering her because theater is hard to make a living in.
ME: Wow.
THEM: Wow is right. Imagine handing somebody something and then saying 'But that's probably not going to work, so you should go buy something else.' On the day you bought it. I can't talk to these people. They're saying 'I love him.' 'He was so nice to me.' 'He was at my wedding.' What does all that matter if you didn't learn anything from him? You're not at school to have a second set of parents. You're not there to have your professors be your friends and invite you over their house and take you out for coffee. You're there to learn from them. If that other stuff happens, great. But to walk away with nothing and say 'He was great. He bought me a sandwich once' is so #$%-ing stupid, I can't even begin to argue about it.
ME: What do you think is going to happen now that he's gone?
THEM: I haven't been there in so long I don't know what the atmosphere is there, but just the thought of him not walking down those hallways and not spending twenty minutes in a class berating a student because they don't look or sound the way he thinks they should is so--It's very moving to me. I wish I could be there to see it.
ME: Have you had any conversations with the administration at the school?
THEM: I plan out reaching out after the new year. I'm hoping that now they'll want to hear what myself and other alumni--people who are actually working in the field--have to say about the program and what needs to be changed.
ME: Any interest in going back and teaching?
THEM: I would happily go back and do a class. I don't want to be a full-time professor, but I would love to go back now--even just for a class--to help them get started righting this train, because it's been on the wrong track for a long time.
ME: You know, a lot of people have reached out to me and said 'This sounds like my school.' Some people were convinced I was talking to someone from the college they went to.
THEM: Isn't it sad? This is happening all over the place and there's nothing--and I'm sure it's not just theater. Colleges are allowed to operate as their own little islands where they can make whatever rules they want, and as long as nobody's being outwardly abused or harassed--I mean, that's happening too--but the bar shouldn't be that high for when somebody needs to step in and says 'Wait a minute, things are not going the way they're supposed to here.' When you look at how much we regulate what high school students and middle school students need to learn and what we expect from their teachers, and then you go to college, where everybody is paid ten times more and there are a fraction of the rules and guidelines. These students in this program--or me when I was there--we had no recourse to do something about this man other than go to the administration, who was always going to back him up without the kind of evidence these kids had with this audio they recorded, and even then, they might have backed him up.
ME: So you're saying college is a scam?
THEM: (Laughs.) College is a scam.
ME: Have you reached out to the student in my last interview? Or have they connected to you? I know they asked me for your contact information and--
THEM: I have. We had a great talk. I let them know I would be here for them--whatever they need. I gave them my personal phone number and I told them that when they're back to school in the spring, if anybody gives them @#$%, I'm happy to come visit and knock some heads.
ME: I said the same thing.
THEM: Look at us threatening to beat up college students.
ME: I mean--with love.
THEM: (Laughing.) With love.
ME: I really don't think that'll happen though, because--I feel like when something of this magnitude occurs, it's like--the spell's been lifted. If they can get a decent replacement in there, it could create a whole new environment.
THEM: I hope they do.
ME: What was going through your mind during that last conversation we had with him?
THEM: That I was--That things aren't like movies. That you want people to change, but that, most of the time, they're not going to. I think maybe sometimes you have to change everything around a person if you want to change the person themselves, and this was someone completely in charge of everything and everyone around him. I don't think change was possible there. You know, power is a drug, and when you try to take it away from people, they're going to do things and act out in--in ways you'd never believe they would.
ME: Like coaching students to lie to somebody interviewing them?
THEM: That--Yes, that's important, because--despite everything I've said to you about him--and to others about him--I never thought he'd do that. I don't think he would normally do something that bad, but he read the writing on the wall. He knew what was coming. We were backing him into a corner and he, like I said, either needed to change--which in this case ties into power, because it means giving up power--or he needed to walk away. He didn't want to walk away, and so he got desperate. Desperate people do really ugly things.
ME: That's when I was like 'You gotta go.'
THEM: (Laughs.) I've been 'You gotta go' for twenty years, but I'm glad you joined the party.
ME: I was trying to--I guess I haven't given up hope that people can change. But in this case, I think you're right. I didn't see change happening. I saw him resisting change, and using his students as a human shield.
THEM: Did you hear what he did before he resigned?
ME: No.
THEM: He posted the cast list online for the spring show. They haven't even had auditions yet. He just posted who he would have cast and in what roles.
ME: Are you kidding me?
THEM: No. He let everybody know who they would have been if he had been allowed to stay, because, you know, chances are they're going to bring in a new director or maybe even change the show, and that cast isn't going to be final. Not when they haven't even tried out yet.
ME: So was that his way of getting all the students who were given these, like, imaginary leads, onto his side?
THEM: That's his way, I think, of creating a little bit more chaos and a little bit more division before he took off, yes.
ME: That is so nasty.
THEM: Isn't it? He put at the bottom of--I have to send it to you--it was still up on the school message board when I checked this morning--He put at the bottom of it 'Congratulations to my students' and the word 'my' is in italics.
ME: Oh my god.
THEM: It's evil. It really is.
ME: But also just silly.
THEM: Not when you know what a cast list means to a bunch of college students.
ME: (Laughs.) Oh, believe me, I know.
THEM: That is like stabbing all of them in the hearts. I hope the school takes it down, but the damage is done.
ME: Do you think he'll try finding work somewhere else?
THEM: I hope not. Like I said, I assume he's retiring. He doesn't have to work. That would be his choice.
ME: Some people wanted to know if there was ever any evidence of inappropriate behavior in terms of physical behavior or sexual behavior.
THEM: No. None. It never got to that level with anyone. Although he did have someone from my class living with him for all of senior year, which was--I can't say it wasn't nice, because the guy was struggling financially and he helped him out, but looking back, I still feel like it wasn't a great idea. I'm sure he could have thought of other ways to help him get housing, but I will say, he wasn't all bad. He had moments where he showed a much kinder side. This kind of thing is very complicated, but I think that if you hurt even one person as badly as he hurt me or...I'm sorry.
ME: It's okay.
THEM: I think it shouldn't take, you know, hundreds of people before you say 'Something needs to be done about this person.' I think if you break someone's spirit--even one person--you need to answer for that. Dealing with systemic problems is something we're all talking a lot about right now. The problems with institutions--like colleges. That's great. It's good to have those conversations. But we can't forget that if one person in power hurts one other person, then that's enough for somebody to step in and say 'No, you can't do that.' It shouldn't have to rise to the level of systemic or institutional. One person should be enough.
ME: I think this is when we remind people that if someone says to you 'Hey, this person treated me badly' and your response is 'Well, that wasn't my experience,' you're a terrible person.
THEM: You are a terrible @#$%-ing person.
ME: I'm just throwing that in there for the Rhode Island people who like to pose for photos with predators they think can get them jobs.
THEM: When is THAT interview happening?
ME: 2020 is right around the corner.
THEM: I can't wait.
ME: Is it difficult when you have people who say 'Oh, I liked that he was hard on me. I like that he tore me down. I need that.'
THEM: If that's what you need, then by all means, ask for it and receive it. But by no means should it be assumed that somebody needs to be treated badly in order to learn or to grow.
ME: I always say anything you can learn through abuse, you can learn through kindness.
THEM: Yes. If someone comes to you and says 'I need you to yell and shout at me for me to get what you're saying' you should say to them 'Let me prove you wrong. Let me show you it doesn't need to be that way for you to get better.' Tell them that they probably feel that way because at some point in their life they were abused and they were mistreated and that's why they think it's good for them. For #$%'s sake, do not continue to abuse them just because they're asking for it and it's easier for you than taking the time and energy to teach them the right way.
ME: Hey--I love you.
THEM: I love you. Thank you for doing this.
ME: Thank you and thanks to the student who spoke with me. I hope they're reading this.
THEM: I hope they are too. They're my hero. I told them that on the phone.
ME: Here's to a better spring.
THEM: Cheers to that.
Them is looking forward to next year.
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