The last two interviews in this series were among the highest-viewed and certainly sparked a lot of conversation.
If you haven't read them, click on the following links:
http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2019/12/theater-and-alumni.html
http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2019/12/theater-alumni-and-professor.html
At the end of the last interview, I asked if I could speak with one of the students currently enrolled at the college in question, and I was put in touch with someone midway through their junior year.
Here's the interview:
ME: Hi, how are you?
THEM: I'm good, thank you.
ME: I appreciate you agreeing to speak with me.
THEM: There are a lot of us who want to talk to you, actually, because we--We're really upset about a lot of what's been said. A lot of it is just--it's just lies.
ME: Well, we'll get to that. I just wanted to ask you a few questions first since I don't know--
THEM: Okay. Yeah.
ME: What has your personal experience with the program been like?
THEM: I haven't--It's been really good.
ME: You're satisfied with the education you're getting there?
THEM: Yes, I am. I think it's been--I've learned a lot.
ME: Have you done shows at your school?
THEM: I've been in the shows here, yes.
ME: And what do you think the perception of your school is in terms of the greater arts community in your area?
THEM: Our school is one of the best in the state.
ME: That's how you think others perceive the program as well?
THEM: Yes. I--that's just the truth.
ME: So you think it's providing an adequate education?
THEM: Yes.
ME: What do you think makes a good school or a good program a good program?
THEM: Um, we are learning a lot about the right and wrong ways to do things.
ME: What does that mean?
THEM: Just, like, how to be a professional. We learn about how to audition. We learn about different plays and writers.
ME: Playwrights.
THEM: Yes.
ME: And how do you know you're being taught the right things?
THEM: Um. Because we have really good professors. [Professor From Previous Interview] is really good. He's--he has a lot of experience.
ME: But what does being really good mean? You feel like you've learned a lot from him?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Like what?
THEM: Auditioning, um--
ME: What kind of acting styles have you learned?
THEM: We've learned classical acting, like Shakespeare, and--
ME: Have you learned different techniques?
THEM: For Shakespeare?
ME: Well, Shakespeare--you could use many different techniques for approaching Shakespeare. What technique does he have you using?
THEM: I--I think it's his own.
ME: What does that mean?
THEM: Like, the way he does things, it's--It's something he came up with himself based on all his experience.
ME: For performing classical pieces?
THEM: Yes.
ME: What about when you study modern plays? Does he have an approach for that?
THEM: I don't get what you're saying.
ME: Do you know about notable people in theater who helped develop different approaches to acting? I'm wondering if he uses any of those approaches.
THEM: Yeah, he does.
ME: So you study acting teachers and people who--
THEM: We study the history of theater.
ME: So for example, do you know who Sanford Meisner is?
THEM: I...I think, yeah.
ME: Can you tell me who he is?
THEM: He was--I might be mixing him up with someone else.
ME: Okay. So there's Meisner. There's Uta Hagen. There's Stanislavski. There's Michael Chekhov. There's Anne Bogart and viewpoints.
THEM: Yes.
(Silence.)
ME: Do you know about any of that?
THEM: We have one program so you can't have all that in one program.
ME: But have you heard of any of those people until just now?
THEM: Um. I think so. We learn a lot so it's hard to keep track of, like, every person that's ever been taught to us.
ME: And you're a junior?
THEM: Yes.
ME: You're midway through junior year right now?
THEM: I--I just want to say--
ME: I'd like you to answer me first, then you can say whatever you want, okay? I'll give you the opportunity to speak, but I need to answer my questions first and not what you think I'm going to ask you. Is that all right?
THEM: Yes.
ME: You only have three semesters left before you graduate with a theater degree. Have you ever studied Tennessee Williams in any of your classes?
THEM: Um--I know who he is.
ME: But he's never come up in any of your classes? Or his plays?
THEM: Not--I don't know.
ME: I should tell you that somebody in your program was nice enough to send me the course curriculum for all the different classes offered there. You're not being taught anything about Williams, Kushner, Emily Mann, O'Neill, Suzan-Lori Parks, Arthur Miller, August Wilson, Caryl Churchill, there's virtually no women playwrights here or playwrights of color except they have you reading A Raisin in the Sun, which is great, but that's something I would expect high school students to be studying. If you're getting a degree in theater, you should be digging a lot deeper than that. It doesn't look like there's any educational vision for the program at all other than 'We want you to get work when you leave.' If you've read the other two interviews, you know that a lot of people who graduate from the program are getting work, but they say it's not because of the program. What do you think about that?
THEM: I think they're really bitter.
ME: Why would they be bitter? A lot of them are very successful.
THEM: Um, because, they're not being asked back to, like, teach us.
ME: Why would they want to teach you. I mean, no offense, but--they're working now. They're not looking to--
THEM: Because they didn't get along with [Professor] and now they want to get rid of him, and, I'm not saying that he's all right and they're all wrong, but just because they didn't have a good time at the school doesn't mean it's a bad school and it doesn't mean--
ME: Forget about having a good time. Do you think you're learning a lot there?
THEM: Yes, I do.
ME: You've been in a lot of shows at your school?
THEM: Yes.
ME: How many of them do you think helped grow you as an artist?
THEM: All of them.
ME: Do you think any of them were chosen just to make money? Without any real educational merit?
THEM: I think all shows have educational merit.
ME: They don't.
THEM: You can learn something from any--
ME: Oh, you can learn something from anything, but that's not the same thing as having educational merit.
THEM: Well, what's that?
ME: What's educational merit?
THEM: Yes.
ME: It's the assessment that a project can directly benefit those working on it and that it won't just be the result of a happy accident.
THEM: I'm just sick of people hating on our program, hating on our school--
ME: But you realize that it's not about people hating on you?
THEM: That's not how it feels. It feels like they're hating on me and on the people I go to school with.
ME: Okay, I'm glad you said that, because I can meet you there. Because that's how I would have felt too. I went to school where I went to school because--like the woman you probably read about in the last interview--that was what was available to me financially.
THEM: Yeah, it's the same way for me.
ME: So it would have been frustrating to me to hear people knocking my program when it was the only program I could go to.
THEM: Yeah.
ME: But what I'm going to say to you is--while I understand that frustration--that program is not a reflection of you. You, if you go on to succeed, become a reflection of the program, not the other way around, and it's the program's job to make sure you have all the resources you need to make that happen. I'm saying that I'm not sure you're getting those resources.
THEM: Can I ask who sent you what we're studying?
ME: You can ask, but I can't tell you.
THEM: This isn't helping though. What does everybody want? For [Professor] to quit?
ME: I think they want him to start doing the right thing. And he could start doing that tomorrow. If he has the power to do the wrong thing, he has the power to make it right.
THEM: He is doing the right thing. This is his program.
ME: No, it's your program. It's not supposed to be a junior version of a theater company with actors who can't leave. It's supposed to be an educational environment. It has to work for you.
THEM: It is working for me.
ME: So if I ask you to name five plays from the last two years, could you do it?
THEM: Plays or musicals?
ME: Are you a musical theater major?
THEM: No.
ME: Then plays.
(Silence.)
THEM: I'm just nervous.
ME: I'm sorry if I'm making you nervous.
THEM: I think you should talk to some of the other students.
ME: Why?
THEM: Because I sound stupid right now and I'm not helping.
ME: I don't think you're stupid. If somebody sends you into battle with a pair of safety scissors, it's not your fault if you get your ass kicked.
THEM: But what you have to understand is that every program is different. The way [Professor] does things--it's not how everyone else does things, but that doesn't make it wrong.
ME: But there has to be an agreed-upon baseline of knowledge, because otherwise, you don't need to go to college, you could have just started auditioning right after high school. You could have done what I did after I graduated when I went to the library and just started taking out books on theater and reading them because I knew there were all these things I wasn't exposed to. You're paying a lot of money to be equipped with certain educational advantages, and if you're putting in the work, then you should have those advantages.
THEM: How did those other people who did well do it then if they didn't get it either?
ME: I think they were ahead of the game by realizing that [Professor] wasn't telling them what they needed to hear, and they went out and found it for themselves, but they're angry, because they shouldn't have had to do that. I shouldn't have had to scour bookshelves trying to figure out what kind of artist I wanted to be. College is supposed to be when you start to develop that creative identity. Do you think you have a creative identity.
THEM: Yeah, I'm an actor.
ME: But what does that mean to you? What kind of actor do you want to be? What kind of artist do you want to be? And how is [Professor] helping you figure that out?
THEM: I...I don't know.
ME: Does it bother you that you don't know?
THEM: Yeah.
ME: Okay.
THEM: What can we do about that though?
ME: You could make some noise.
(Silence.)
THEM: I don't think that's. I don't think I should.
ME: I'm going to ask you something, and--I need you to know that while I'm not great at knowing when somebody's lying to me, I usually find out eventually anyway, because somebody always rats out the liar. And you have a lot of people in the program right now who aren't happy and don't like it there and they'll rat you out if you say something that's not true, and they'll have proof, and you'll look pretty bad, so I need you to answer the next question honestly, okay?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Did [Professor] tell you what to say to me today?
THEM: He had a meeting with me.
ME: Did he tell you what to say?
THEM: He talked to me about what I should say.
ME: So yes?
THEM: Yes.
ME: He told you how to answer the questions he thought I would ask?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Why do you think he chose you to speak with me?
THEM: I don't know.
ME: I think you do. Do you want me to guess or do you want to do the right thing and tell me?
(Silence.)
THEM: We have auditions next week for the show he's doing in the spring. It's my last show there before I graduate. He called me in to talk about the show and how he was excited for my audition, and then--then he asked me to talk to you.
ME: So you think he was trying to remind you that if you said something he didn't like it might affect you getting in that show?
(A pause.)
THEM: Yes.
ME: Do you see how that's wrong?
THEM: I...I think he's really worried.
ME: He should be worried.
THEM: It's not like he told me to lie.
ME: He didn't?
THEM: He asked me to talk about all the good things we do in the program.
ME: Did he tell you not to bring up other things?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Like what?
THEM: That...That he's said bad things about people who've gone to the school.
ME: Like the person from last week's interview?
THEM: Yes.
ME: He's talked about her in class?
THEM: Yes.
ME: In a class you were in? Just say yes or no.
THEM: Yes.
ME: And he's talked about other former students as well?
THEM: Yes.
ME: What kind of things does he say?
THEM: He, um. He called one of them a bitch.
ME: Was that the person I talked to last week?
THEM: Yes.
ME: He called her a bitch?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Okay. What else?
THEM: One of the guys who graduated with my sister--she went to school here too--he's done a couple of movies and when we asked [Professor] about that he said, 'That's because he sleeps around.'
ME: So he was saying this person was successful because they use sex to get ahead?
THEM: Yes.
ME: And he asked you not to tell me any of this?
THEM: Yes, because, that's just his personality. He just--he's very honest.
ME: So you think he was telling the truth about that person? About all the people who've left and become successful?
THEM: I. I don't know.
ME: Would it be really hard for you if someone you trusted to teach you was telling you the wrong things to protect themselves?
(Silence.)
THEM: Yes.
ME: Yeah, that would be hard for me too. Do you think that if the program really was as good as he told you to say it was that he would need you to lie about it for him?
THEM: I. I don't know.
ME: Do you--
THEM: I guess not.
ME: Okay. You know, I don't have to post this interview if you don't want me to. I can just transcribe one of my older ones and put that one out. I don't want to make things difficult for you. You can tell him that I changed my mind. Or I can tell him. Would you like that?
THEM: I don't know.
ME: I'm not going to lie--I assume with a program like this, it's going to be very challenging for you if this comes out. He has other students supporting him, right?
THEM: Yes.
ME: The thing you need to know--and the thing they need to understand--is that somebody in a bubble can only help you or hurt you within that bubble. That's why they protect the bubble before they'll protect anybody inside it other than themselves. And when somebody outside of it does well in spite of them, it threatens everything, and they close ranks. But here's what everybody needs to understand--you're worse off making enemies outside the bubble than inside it, because eventually you run into somebody like that woman I talked to last week who can really hurt you if she wants to, and you say to her, 'Oh, I went to the same school you did and [Professor] is my hero' then you might be penalized for that, whether it's fair or unfair. You are way better off not declaring unconditional loyalty to somebody who is only going to be in your life for four years, because that's the exact same reason they are never going to be truly loyal to you. Does any of that make sense?
THEM: Yes, but I still have to go back there. I'm still there for one more year. I don't think you can just hide this, because he's waiting to see it and I think--I don't think some of what he's doing is right, but it just sucks because I have to go back. I don't have a choice. My friends were like, 'You're going to destroy that guy.'
ME: Meaning me?
THEM: Yes. They read all your other interviews and we were talking about things I could bring up that were wrong and how this is all cowardly because people who speak anonymously are cowards.
ME: More or less cowardly than using your students to defend you?
THEM: Yeah, I know.
ME: So you think your friends will be mad at you if this comes out?
THEM: Yeah.
ME: It's up to you. I've buried a few interviews already.
THEM: Really?
ME: Yup. One more won't hurt. Doesn't matter to me. But I'll tell you something--if you let me publish it, I'll do whatever I can do to help you out. I'm sure people like the woman I spoke to last week would want to help you out as well. And if these people back up [Professor] so they can get a lead role over you, they're not your friends.
THEM: But, like, I would do the same thing.
ME: Because that's the environment he created. I get it. I'll leave it up to you. Do you want a few days to think about?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Okay, I'll call you in a few days.
Them decided they wanted the interview to be published.
If you haven't read them, click on the following links:
http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2019/12/theater-and-alumni.html
http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2019/12/theater-alumni-and-professor.html
At the end of the last interview, I asked if I could speak with one of the students currently enrolled at the college in question, and I was put in touch with someone midway through their junior year.
Here's the interview:
ME: Hi, how are you?
THEM: I'm good, thank you.
ME: I appreciate you agreeing to speak with me.
THEM: There are a lot of us who want to talk to you, actually, because we--We're really upset about a lot of what's been said. A lot of it is just--it's just lies.
ME: Well, we'll get to that. I just wanted to ask you a few questions first since I don't know--
THEM: Okay. Yeah.
ME: What has your personal experience with the program been like?
THEM: I haven't--It's been really good.
ME: You're satisfied with the education you're getting there?
THEM: Yes, I am. I think it's been--I've learned a lot.
ME: Have you done shows at your school?
THEM: I've been in the shows here, yes.
ME: And what do you think the perception of your school is in terms of the greater arts community in your area?
THEM: Our school is one of the best in the state.
ME: That's how you think others perceive the program as well?
THEM: Yes. I--that's just the truth.
ME: So you think it's providing an adequate education?
THEM: Yes.
ME: What do you think makes a good school or a good program a good program?
THEM: Um, we are learning a lot about the right and wrong ways to do things.
ME: What does that mean?
THEM: Just, like, how to be a professional. We learn about how to audition. We learn about different plays and writers.
ME: Playwrights.
THEM: Yes.
ME: And how do you know you're being taught the right things?
THEM: Um. Because we have really good professors. [Professor From Previous Interview] is really good. He's--he has a lot of experience.
ME: But what does being really good mean? You feel like you've learned a lot from him?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Like what?
THEM: Auditioning, um--
ME: What kind of acting styles have you learned?
THEM: We've learned classical acting, like Shakespeare, and--
ME: Have you learned different techniques?
THEM: For Shakespeare?
ME: Well, Shakespeare--you could use many different techniques for approaching Shakespeare. What technique does he have you using?
THEM: I--I think it's his own.
ME: What does that mean?
THEM: Like, the way he does things, it's--It's something he came up with himself based on all his experience.
ME: For performing classical pieces?
THEM: Yes.
ME: What about when you study modern plays? Does he have an approach for that?
THEM: I don't get what you're saying.
ME: Do you know about notable people in theater who helped develop different approaches to acting? I'm wondering if he uses any of those approaches.
THEM: Yeah, he does.
ME: So you study acting teachers and people who--
THEM: We study the history of theater.
ME: So for example, do you know who Sanford Meisner is?
THEM: I...I think, yeah.
ME: Can you tell me who he is?
THEM: He was--I might be mixing him up with someone else.
ME: Okay. So there's Meisner. There's Uta Hagen. There's Stanislavski. There's Michael Chekhov. There's Anne Bogart and viewpoints.
THEM: Yes.
(Silence.)
ME: Do you know about any of that?
THEM: We have one program so you can't have all that in one program.
ME: But have you heard of any of those people until just now?
THEM: Um. I think so. We learn a lot so it's hard to keep track of, like, every person that's ever been taught to us.
ME: And you're a junior?
THEM: Yes.
ME: You're midway through junior year right now?
THEM: I--I just want to say--
ME: I'd like you to answer me first, then you can say whatever you want, okay? I'll give you the opportunity to speak, but I need to answer my questions first and not what you think I'm going to ask you. Is that all right?
THEM: Yes.
ME: You only have three semesters left before you graduate with a theater degree. Have you ever studied Tennessee Williams in any of your classes?
THEM: Um--I know who he is.
ME: But he's never come up in any of your classes? Or his plays?
THEM: Not--I don't know.
ME: I should tell you that somebody in your program was nice enough to send me the course curriculum for all the different classes offered there. You're not being taught anything about Williams, Kushner, Emily Mann, O'Neill, Suzan-Lori Parks, Arthur Miller, August Wilson, Caryl Churchill, there's virtually no women playwrights here or playwrights of color except they have you reading A Raisin in the Sun, which is great, but that's something I would expect high school students to be studying. If you're getting a degree in theater, you should be digging a lot deeper than that. It doesn't look like there's any educational vision for the program at all other than 'We want you to get work when you leave.' If you've read the other two interviews, you know that a lot of people who graduate from the program are getting work, but they say it's not because of the program. What do you think about that?
THEM: I think they're really bitter.
ME: Why would they be bitter? A lot of them are very successful.
THEM: Um, because, they're not being asked back to, like, teach us.
ME: Why would they want to teach you. I mean, no offense, but--they're working now. They're not looking to--
THEM: Because they didn't get along with [Professor] and now they want to get rid of him, and, I'm not saying that he's all right and they're all wrong, but just because they didn't have a good time at the school doesn't mean it's a bad school and it doesn't mean--
ME: Forget about having a good time. Do you think you're learning a lot there?
THEM: Yes, I do.
ME: You've been in a lot of shows at your school?
THEM: Yes.
ME: How many of them do you think helped grow you as an artist?
THEM: All of them.
ME: Do you think any of them were chosen just to make money? Without any real educational merit?
THEM: I think all shows have educational merit.
ME: They don't.
THEM: You can learn something from any--
ME: Oh, you can learn something from anything, but that's not the same thing as having educational merit.
THEM: Well, what's that?
ME: What's educational merit?
THEM: Yes.
ME: It's the assessment that a project can directly benefit those working on it and that it won't just be the result of a happy accident.
THEM: I'm just sick of people hating on our program, hating on our school--
ME: But you realize that it's not about people hating on you?
THEM: That's not how it feels. It feels like they're hating on me and on the people I go to school with.
ME: Okay, I'm glad you said that, because I can meet you there. Because that's how I would have felt too. I went to school where I went to school because--like the woman you probably read about in the last interview--that was what was available to me financially.
THEM: Yeah, it's the same way for me.
ME: So it would have been frustrating to me to hear people knocking my program when it was the only program I could go to.
THEM: Yeah.
ME: But what I'm going to say to you is--while I understand that frustration--that program is not a reflection of you. You, if you go on to succeed, become a reflection of the program, not the other way around, and it's the program's job to make sure you have all the resources you need to make that happen. I'm saying that I'm not sure you're getting those resources.
THEM: Can I ask who sent you what we're studying?
ME: You can ask, but I can't tell you.
THEM: This isn't helping though. What does everybody want? For [Professor] to quit?
ME: I think they want him to start doing the right thing. And he could start doing that tomorrow. If he has the power to do the wrong thing, he has the power to make it right.
THEM: He is doing the right thing. This is his program.
ME: No, it's your program. It's not supposed to be a junior version of a theater company with actors who can't leave. It's supposed to be an educational environment. It has to work for you.
THEM: It is working for me.
ME: So if I ask you to name five plays from the last two years, could you do it?
THEM: Plays or musicals?
ME: Are you a musical theater major?
THEM: No.
ME: Then plays.
(Silence.)
THEM: I'm just nervous.
ME: I'm sorry if I'm making you nervous.
THEM: I think you should talk to some of the other students.
ME: Why?
THEM: Because I sound stupid right now and I'm not helping.
ME: I don't think you're stupid. If somebody sends you into battle with a pair of safety scissors, it's not your fault if you get your ass kicked.
THEM: But what you have to understand is that every program is different. The way [Professor] does things--it's not how everyone else does things, but that doesn't make it wrong.
ME: But there has to be an agreed-upon baseline of knowledge, because otherwise, you don't need to go to college, you could have just started auditioning right after high school. You could have done what I did after I graduated when I went to the library and just started taking out books on theater and reading them because I knew there were all these things I wasn't exposed to. You're paying a lot of money to be equipped with certain educational advantages, and if you're putting in the work, then you should have those advantages.
THEM: How did those other people who did well do it then if they didn't get it either?
ME: I think they were ahead of the game by realizing that [Professor] wasn't telling them what they needed to hear, and they went out and found it for themselves, but they're angry, because they shouldn't have had to do that. I shouldn't have had to scour bookshelves trying to figure out what kind of artist I wanted to be. College is supposed to be when you start to develop that creative identity. Do you think you have a creative identity.
THEM: Yeah, I'm an actor.
ME: But what does that mean to you? What kind of actor do you want to be? What kind of artist do you want to be? And how is [Professor] helping you figure that out?
THEM: I...I don't know.
ME: Does it bother you that you don't know?
THEM: Yeah.
ME: Okay.
THEM: What can we do about that though?
ME: You could make some noise.
(Silence.)
THEM: I don't think that's. I don't think I should.
ME: I'm going to ask you something, and--I need you to know that while I'm not great at knowing when somebody's lying to me, I usually find out eventually anyway, because somebody always rats out the liar. And you have a lot of people in the program right now who aren't happy and don't like it there and they'll rat you out if you say something that's not true, and they'll have proof, and you'll look pretty bad, so I need you to answer the next question honestly, okay?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Did [Professor] tell you what to say to me today?
THEM: He had a meeting with me.
ME: Did he tell you what to say?
THEM: He talked to me about what I should say.
ME: So yes?
THEM: Yes.
ME: He told you how to answer the questions he thought I would ask?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Why do you think he chose you to speak with me?
THEM: I don't know.
ME: I think you do. Do you want me to guess or do you want to do the right thing and tell me?
(Silence.)
THEM: We have auditions next week for the show he's doing in the spring. It's my last show there before I graduate. He called me in to talk about the show and how he was excited for my audition, and then--then he asked me to talk to you.
ME: So you think he was trying to remind you that if you said something he didn't like it might affect you getting in that show?
(A pause.)
THEM: Yes.
ME: Do you see how that's wrong?
THEM: I...I think he's really worried.
ME: He should be worried.
THEM: It's not like he told me to lie.
ME: He didn't?
THEM: He asked me to talk about all the good things we do in the program.
ME: Did he tell you not to bring up other things?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Like what?
THEM: That...That he's said bad things about people who've gone to the school.
ME: Like the person from last week's interview?
THEM: Yes.
ME: He's talked about her in class?
THEM: Yes.
ME: In a class you were in? Just say yes or no.
THEM: Yes.
ME: And he's talked about other former students as well?
THEM: Yes.
ME: What kind of things does he say?
THEM: He, um. He called one of them a bitch.
ME: Was that the person I talked to last week?
THEM: Yes.
ME: He called her a bitch?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Okay. What else?
THEM: One of the guys who graduated with my sister--she went to school here too--he's done a couple of movies and when we asked [Professor] about that he said, 'That's because he sleeps around.'
ME: So he was saying this person was successful because they use sex to get ahead?
THEM: Yes.
ME: And he asked you not to tell me any of this?
THEM: Yes, because, that's just his personality. He just--he's very honest.
ME: So you think he was telling the truth about that person? About all the people who've left and become successful?
THEM: I. I don't know.
ME: Would it be really hard for you if someone you trusted to teach you was telling you the wrong things to protect themselves?
(Silence.)
THEM: Yes.
ME: Yeah, that would be hard for me too. Do you think that if the program really was as good as he told you to say it was that he would need you to lie about it for him?
THEM: I. I don't know.
ME: Do you--
THEM: I guess not.
ME: Okay. You know, I don't have to post this interview if you don't want me to. I can just transcribe one of my older ones and put that one out. I don't want to make things difficult for you. You can tell him that I changed my mind. Or I can tell him. Would you like that?
THEM: I don't know.
ME: I'm not going to lie--I assume with a program like this, it's going to be very challenging for you if this comes out. He has other students supporting him, right?
THEM: Yes.
ME: The thing you need to know--and the thing they need to understand--is that somebody in a bubble can only help you or hurt you within that bubble. That's why they protect the bubble before they'll protect anybody inside it other than themselves. And when somebody outside of it does well in spite of them, it threatens everything, and they close ranks. But here's what everybody needs to understand--you're worse off making enemies outside the bubble than inside it, because eventually you run into somebody like that woman I talked to last week who can really hurt you if she wants to, and you say to her, 'Oh, I went to the same school you did and [Professor] is my hero' then you might be penalized for that, whether it's fair or unfair. You are way better off not declaring unconditional loyalty to somebody who is only going to be in your life for four years, because that's the exact same reason they are never going to be truly loyal to you. Does any of that make sense?
THEM: Yes, but I still have to go back there. I'm still there for one more year. I don't think you can just hide this, because he's waiting to see it and I think--I don't think some of what he's doing is right, but it just sucks because I have to go back. I don't have a choice. My friends were like, 'You're going to destroy that guy.'
ME: Meaning me?
THEM: Yes. They read all your other interviews and we were talking about things I could bring up that were wrong and how this is all cowardly because people who speak anonymously are cowards.
ME: More or less cowardly than using your students to defend you?
THEM: Yeah, I know.
ME: So you think your friends will be mad at you if this comes out?
THEM: Yeah.
ME: It's up to you. I've buried a few interviews already.
THEM: Really?
ME: Yup. One more won't hurt. Doesn't matter to me. But I'll tell you something--if you let me publish it, I'll do whatever I can do to help you out. I'm sure people like the woman I spoke to last week would want to help you out as well. And if these people back up [Professor] so they can get a lead role over you, they're not your friends.
THEM: But, like, I would do the same thing.
ME: Because that's the environment he created. I get it. I'll leave it up to you. Do you want a few days to think about?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Okay, I'll call you in a few days.
Them decided they wanted the interview to be published.
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ReplyDeleteWhat a way you have of eliciting truth.
ReplyDeleteI admire the student's bravery so much.
Thank you for this .moving series.