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Theater and Alumni

This interview almost didn't happen.

I'll explain.

I was talking to a really nice actress about her career and some of her frustrations with it, and I felt like there really wasn't anything there that hadn't already been covered in previous interviews, but she was lovely to speak with, and stayed on the phone for awhile.

Ironically, she's probably one of the more accomplished people I've talked to, having working professionally for nearly ten years, including acting in several Broadway shows.

She felt, like I did, that the interview wasn't all that dynamic, and we even laughed about it at one point.  We were just about to get off the phone when I happened to ask her about her educational background, and that's when she told me about her college experience--particularly how bad it was for her.  She had the typical negative collegiate narrative--she and a professor didn't get along, he didn't invest in her, and there were a few dramatic incidents.

I pointed out that she must get a lot of satisfaction out of being so successful after having been counted out like that, and she responded--

"Yes, but it feels strange to have gotten this far and still not be acknowledged by the place where I went to school."

I asked what she meant by that, and she told me that the professor she had battled with is still running the theater program she came out of and that neither he, the program, nor the school, claim her as a success story.


Now, I could see the reasoning for this, but it also presented an interesting question to me--

Every school and program plays favorites, and as a result, sometimes the students it doesn't favor leave with bad feelings on both sides.

But if a student like that went on to have a highly successful career, how would the school deal with that?

Colleges love to tout alumni who are doing well, and in some cases, it's crucial for recruitment efforts, but is it better to pretend that a famous alumna doesn't exist if it's possible that person might trash your program?

I talked to the professor that clashed with the original subject of this interview.  They're currently the head of the theater program she attended, and they have been for nearly twenty years.


In addition, I spoke with several friends who are the Chairs of their departments and a few full-time professors to get their take on my question, and their opinions were varied, and in many cases, surprising.

Here's the interview:

ME:  Thank you so much for agreeing to speak with me.  I'm a little shocked that you did, to be honest.

THEM:  Your email was respectful.  I meet respect with respect.  That's what I teach my students too.

ME:  Do you remember [Name of Actress I Spoke With]?

THEM:  Yes, I do.

ME:  In my email, I gave you the breakdown of what she said her experience was.  It wasn't anything abusive or inappropriate.  It just sounds as though you two really didn't get along.

THEM:  I think that would be a fair assessment.

ME:  What do you think the issue was there?

THEM:  I can only speak to my side of it--although everything that I read in your email--everything she said--the things that happened--that was all true.  She even left a few things out that would have made me sound a little more monstrous, I'm sure.  I've mellowed a bit over the years.

ME:  What's your side of it?

THEM:  My side of it is that I can only teach what I believe.  It's fine to say--for a student even, to say--'I don't buy that.'  You don't have to buy it.  Everybody approaches the craft in a different way.  She didn't want to approach it my way, but I can't upend an entire program based on how one person wants to learn.

ME:  Doesn't your program teach different approaches though?

THEM:  We teach different methods, but when you get down to the finer points of--We would--She and I would do battle about details and specifics more often than not.  But there was a question of why we do what we do, and that really informs how you learn and how you teach.  We answered the question in different ways.

ME:  How do you answer it?

THEM:  I do what I do--I would say the program is designed--to create real-life opportunities--employment opportunities--for artists.  We talk a lot about the business side of it.  We talk about the skills you need to make a living at it.

ME:  It's funny that she rebelled against that considering how well she's done in the business.

THEM:  It is very interesting, yes.  Maybe certain things slipped in subconsciously.

ME:  I want to make it clear before we go any further that this is not meant to be an antagonistic interview, but I have to ask some questions that might come across that way.

THEM:  You can ask them.  It doesn't mean I have to answer them.

ME:  Right, I just wanted you to know that I am asking them with respect and not with--

THEM:  I see what you mean, thank you, I appreciate it.

ME:  The person I spoke with isn't the only person whose come out of your program that I would say is--successful.  You've actually--your program's done very well in terms of--graduating people who went on to do really great things.

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  But--I haven't been able to get in touch with all of them, but--the ones I've spoken to--not just the [Name of Actress], but so far, all of them--really took issue with the program.

THEM:  I understand.

ME:  You understand why they took issue with it?

THEM:  No, I--I don't know who you spoke to, but--

ME:  I can give you names if you want.  They didn't ask me to keep it private for--

THEM:  That's not necessary.

ME:  Okay.  Across the board, the program--your program--and the school, itself, have never acknowledged that these people are alumni.

THEM:  Well, you can see why that would be the case, I'm sure.

ME:  Are you worried that if you shine a spotlight on them--

THEM:  The way things are now--I should give you some background on my philosophy when it comes to--not just teaching, but creating a learning atmosphere.  We need our students to really trust in us.  To depend on us, in a way.  We need them to--to fully embrace our mission.  The school's mission.  The program's mission.  We need them to--

ME:  But you said earlier that it's okay if they don't buy into it.

THEM:  If they don't, they don't, but I can't speak to what kind of education they're going to get if they choose to continue their studies with us after that.

ME:  What else would they do?

THEM:  Transfer?  I don't know.  I just don't know why they'd continue on at that point, but if they choose to, that's certainly their right.  We're not a conservatory.  We don't kick people out or ask them to leave.

ME:  But you--

THEM:  May I finish what I was saying?

ME:  Sure.

THEM:  Thank you.  We keep an eye on what's affecting our students--what's coming in from the outside world.  Now, that used to be easy, because we're pretty far off the beaten path in terms of where we're located, which is why, yes, it is unusual that we've wound up with all these graduates doing all kinds of interesting projects--

ME:  Broadway.  A lot of them have done Broadway.

THEM:  I don't know the extent of it, but yes, that's--good for them.  I think that's great.  Now, like I was saying about outside influence--years ago, it was easy to have more control over what students were hearing about and--

ME:  I'm sorry.  I don't mean to--it sounds like you're describing a cult.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  It's more about a discipline.  That's all.  We need a commitment from them and this is a--this is a very distracted world.  The distraction doesn't help with the discipline.

ME:  What does that have to do with--

THEM:  I'm getting there.  If the school--or the program--were to tip our hats to some of these people who've come through our program, it's possible the students might reach out to them and hear some things that would--not be helpful.

ME:  So are you worried that they'd reach out to someone like [Name of Actress] and she'd say 'Oh, they don't know what they're talking about.'

THEM:  Something like that, yes.  That wouldn't--you can see how that wouldn't be helpful to us.

ME:  I can meet you where you are on that and say that...I can see how that would undermine what you're trying to do.

THEM:  Thank you.

ME:  But how much control do you have over that?  I've been talking to friends who are in positions just like yours and many of them have said that if they tried to suppress that kind of--

THEM:  I don't feel it's a suppression.

ME:  But you know what I mean.  That if they tried to deny the existence of a famous alumni, the school would override them.

THEM:  None of our alumni are at the level where the school is going to be all that interested unless I tell them it's of interest to them.  If one of my former students wins an Oscar, then yes, I'll probably be overruled.  I'll also have to start looking for a new job.

ME:  Why would you think that?

THEM:  Because if someone like [Name of an Actress] was--I have a friend as well--in a position like mine--at a college in [City] and something like that happened.  Someone that graduated, who was very bitter, very angry young man, got his big break on a television show.  My friend didn't realize he was still holding on to all this resentment.  She thought it was all water under the bridge.  So she invited him back to do a master class.  He spent the entire time degrading the program.  Degrading her.  He--he was on a demolition mission.  That's how she put it.  She ended up having to resign, because--What could she do after that?  The President of the School was at the class.  The Dean was there.  It was a humiliation for the college.

ME:  Why would that lead to her stepping down?

THEM:  Because that gentleman--by virtue of being on that television show--had a louder voice than that of a college theater professor.  For him to show up and say to a group of students--I think there were even press there--for him to say, 'This is all s***.'  It destroys the program's credibility.

ME:  Couldn't they have just...taken what he said and thought about evolving the program?

THEM:  Kevin, you don't change your mission, because somebody's angry they didn't get roles ten years ago.  You don't--

ME:  I think that's minimizing--I think if it were just about--I don't know this exact situation, but--if someone is still that hurt--and I'll swap out anger for hurt, because one is really the other--if someone is that hurt ten years later, I think it's probably a lot deeper than 'You didn't give me a good role.'

THEM:  What do you think it would be then?

ME:  In your case at least, based on the people I've talked to, it's 'I trusted you and you gave up on me' which is something that--that even you're not denying.

THEM:  It's easy to be in your position and comment on mine--

ME:  I agree.  Totally.

THEM:  You can't throw away an entire program, because it's not working for one student or even ten students.

ME:  But when the students it is working for don't seem to be succeeding and the others--

THEM:  You don't know that the others aren't succeeding.

ME:  Can you give me names of people who are?

THEM:  Success is not all about being third lead in a Broadway show that closes in six months.

ME:  See, that seems like a dig at [Name of Actress].

THEM:  I'm sorry, I...That was beneath me.  You're right.  I apologize.

ME:  It seems as though you're still angry about her ten years later.

THEM:  I wouldn't say angry.  I would love it if she could just--I would love to be able to say, 'This is someone our school is proud of' but that wouldn't be fair to her or the school.  The school because we'd be trusting her not to attack us, and it wouldn't be fair to her, because saying something like that implies that we had a hand in her success, and I'm sure she would object to that assertion.

ME:  But you don't think there's a conversation that could happen between you and her where maybe you could learn something about her experience that could help make the program better?

THEM:  As I said, it's a philosophical difference.  It's not right and wrong.  It's not fix this or change that.  It's a different way of looking at--almost a different way of looking at the world.

ME:  So you don't want to hear what she has to say?

THEM:  I know what she has to say.

ME:  It doesn't give you pause that all these people are doing so well having rejected your philosophy?

THEM:  There are others who rejected it, who aren't doing well.

ME:  You keep dodging the question.

THEM:  I--I think it would bother me...You see, to answer your question, I'd have to say something very cruel, and I'd rather not do that.

ME:  Are you sure?

THEM:  I don't see the point in being cruel.

ME:  I get the feeling like you don't care that they're successful because--have you been following their careers?

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  Have you seen [Name of Actor] in [Name of Movie].

THEM:  I have--and a few other films he's done.

ME:  Do you think he's talented?

     (Silence.)

THEM:  I'd rather not say.

ME:  Do you think any of the people who graduated from your program and are now either on Broadway, making a living in film, the two that are on television programs, the director--do you think any of those people are talented?

     (A moment.)

THEM:  I wish them well.  That's what I'll say.

ME:  Is there anything--any level of fame or achievement that they could, uh, acquire--that could get you to change your mind?

THEM:  Why would it matter?  If they're off doing all these wonderful things, why would it matter if I've changed my mind?

ME:  Because you were a part of their lives at a very formative time, and I think it's natural to want, um, approval--from the people we meet at that point in our lives who are responsible for our growth.

THEM:  This seems very personal to you.

ME:  It is very personal to me.  I--

THEM:  Can I know why--

ME:  Because, with maybe one exception, I was never anybody's favorite and more people counted me out than counted me in, and I've gone through my entire life thinking that if I did something impressive enough, those people would regret thinking I wasn't talented, and you're saying, 'No.  Not going to happen.'

THEM:  Kevin, for every person who is--who would seem to be inarguably talented--there are thousands of people who think they're not.  Now, if you're one of the talented people and you happen to meet someone who doesn't think you are during--you said a 'formative time'--then yes, I can see how that would be challenging, but it's not anybody's job to think you're talented.  To find you to be talented.

ME:  But shouldn't you, in your position, have a better eye for talent?

THEM:  Talent is subjective.

ME:  But your philosophy is--the business of making art--and you can't seem to pick out people who actually have what it takes to make it, and you're simultaneously closing your eyes to the people who do, because they think your approach is bulls***.  Doesn't any of this seem like a gigantic waste of time to you.

THEM:  You'd be saying my entire career has been--what I've given my life to--has been a waste of time.

ME:  I mean, if it looks like a duck--

THEM:  That's not very respectful.

ME:  There's an unwillingness to change here that I'm just--you won't even admit that maybe you've made--

THEM:  I've made mistakes and I'm not infallible.  I won't say that it was wrong of me to commit to an educational philosophy that I understand and that I can communicate effectively to others.  I can't teach something I don't believe.  It's as simple as that.  It doesn't matter if it's--I've been doing this for a long, long time.  It's not easy to just turn the car around and go in a different direction, because it might get you a few more pictures to put up in the Hall of Fame.  I teach from my heart, and I can't change my heart, Kevin.

ME:  Okay, well--that might be a good place to stop.

THEM:  Thank you.

ME:  Thank you.

Them is the Head of a Theater Department and has been for nearly twenty years.

Comments

  1. Ugh. Thanks as ever for shining a bright light.

    ReplyDelete
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