After my first post about struggling with continuing to do theater and my subsequent conversation
with an anonymous friend about why they walked away from theater entirely, I got a ton of responses
from people who also wanted to talk with me, and many of them were willing to go on record about
their experiences in an effort to help other people feel like they're not alone in the fight.
I'm not sure how many of these I'm going to do, but I'm not going to put a cap on it either.
Hope you can get something out of it.
ME: So I should start by telling the people reading this that you haven't done theater in--?
THEM: It's been about three years now.
ME: And before that you were doing it pretty regularly.
THEM: I had been doing it since I was twelve. It was always something I wanted to do.
ME: So what made you stop? THEM: This is way more formal than that last conversation? ME: I know, I feel like I'm Diane Sawyer all of a sudden.
THEM: Just don't make me cry like you did with that last person.
ME: I didn't MAKE them cry. They cried on their own.
THEM: I'm a big crier, so I'll probably start any minute now.
ME: Okay, so let's pivot--what did you get out of reading the last conversation? THEM: It was just a lot of what I'd been feeling which is why I reached out.
ME: And have you been watching the comments and stuff on social media.
THEM: Yeah, and I don't mean to be mean, but--
ME: Uh oh.
THEM: No, I just have to say, #$T! all these people being like, 'Oh, walk away.
It's good for you.' You said a million times you didn't WANT to walk away and
that you were just having a tough time and instead of these people being like
'Well, let me help' they're like 'Sorry, maybe you should quit.' #$% them.
ME: Some people offered to help.
THEM: Yeah? ME: Yeah, but it was a lot of 'Let's get coffee.'
THEM: Ugh, I #$%-ing hate that.
ME: It's something, but--
THEM: I don't need coffee. I need you to cast me in a #$%-ing play.
ME: (Laughs.) Or deal with the crazy actor who's e-mailing me right now.
THEM: I like when people are say 'I want to help you, but I want to determine
the help that I give you.'
ME: And sometimes they just can't help. That's the thing.
THEM: Right, that's true.
ME: I can't blame them, because where I've wound up, personally, is
'Look, I can barely keep my head up, so I'm here for you, but I gotta be
honest and say I'm not sure I have a lot of extra strength to go around
at the moment.'
THEM: That's real. That's how a lot of people are now.
ME: We've all got enough for ourselves, and we're not sure how much
we can afford to give to anybody else.
THEM: Mentally I was there right before I, uh, before I stepped away, yeah.
ME: Are you going to cry? THEM: (Laughs.) #$%^ you.
ME: When I transcribe this, every time you swear, I'm going to do all the weird symbols.
THEM: No dashes?
ME: No dashes.
THEM: Nice.
ME: Gonna try the symbols.
THEM: Can we be honest for a second and talk about what specifically is bothering you?
Like, what is the real struggle? Do you know?
ME: I--Okay, so I was talking with my therapist--
THEM: Oh @#$%.
ME: And she pointed out that the moment when I was finally like, 'I'm good'--
THEM: And when was this moment? ME: Are you interviewing me? THEM: I think I am.
ME: Okay, because I didn't sign up for that.
THEM: (Laughs.) This was my plan the whole time.
ME: So, uh, I was doing this solo play called "Buyer and Cellar"--
THEM: You were good in that.
ME: Thank you.
THEM: I was so mad.
ME: Why??? THEM: Because I wanted that role.
ME: It's not like we auditioned--
THEM: No, but I was just like--I should play that role.
ME: Well now they know you're a man.
THEM: I said I didn't care if I was anonymous.
ME: Right, but I'm being consistent in case I do a hundred of these.
THEM: Nobody wants that.
ME: Nobody. So anyway, I'm doing this play, this solo play, and up until that point
I was always really insecure about myself as an actor, and acting--that was all I
wanted to do--was for people to think of me as a good actor.
THEM: Okay.
ME: So I do this solo play, and it's like, Okay, if I can nail this, then nobody
can ever say I'm a bad actor again.
THEM: You didn't really think that? ME: It's all, like, subconscious--is what I'm learning.
THEM: Okay.
ME: So I do the play, and it's a big success, and the night the big review came out
it was this rave review, and right in that moment--ugh, this is so embarrassing--
THEM: Say it.
ME: Right in that moment I was like 'I'm good. I did it. I don't have to do this
anymore.'
THEM: Wow.
ME: That's so humiliating to admit.
THEM: That a good review made you feel complete?
ME: That maybe that's what I needed. It's gross.
THEM: Was that really it though?
ME: Well, it was probably the combination of a good review, we had a sold out press night the day of the review, big standing ovation, all these people telling me how great I was--
THEM: Did it feel like a culmination?
ME: Yes! Oh my god, yes. That's the word.
THEM: And then you were done?
ME: I felt done but I didn't know that's what it was.
THEM: Okay.
ME: And I think I've been...kind of done since but trying not to be done. So--the projects have just gotten crazier and crazier but not necessarily more meaningful to me, which is probably the path I should have gone down.
THEM: Because you needed validation--
ME: Right.
THEM: Then you stopped needing it but you didn't know it.
ME: And now it's this embarrassing thing like when I did "Hedwig" people would cheer and I'd be like 'Oh, this is that thing I used to need. Ugh, I feel weird.'
THEM: It's like how people who quit something can't be near it anymore.
ME: It just felt like a reminder that I used to be that caricature of an actor who desperately needs love all the time.
THEM: But you're still like that.
ME: (Laughs.) I am, but I--I guess I now look for it in other ways.
THEM: Healthier ways?
(Silence.)
ME: Sure, let's go with that.
THEM: (Laughs.) Okay.
ME: Yeah--I think--I think healthier--like, writing is part of it.
THEM: Okay.
ME: But yeah, and--I think after that show--after "Buyer and Cellar," the other thing that really messed with my head was thinking that it would be like when an actor is in a hit movie and then, like, everyone's calling them to be like 'Come be in MY movie now!'
THEM: That didn't happen?
ME: Nooooo.
THEM: So you thought like Trinity would call--
ME: I thought Trinity would call and be like 'You just got awesome reviews in this one-man show and people are loving it and it's so good, come work with us.' Yes. That's what I thought--like, not Realistic Me, but Unrealistic-Optimistic Me.
THEM: Isn't it sad that unrealistic and optimistic are now interchangeable?
ME: Very sad.
THEM: So nobody called, which is great, because I thought that's what was going to happen for you. I really thought you were going to be unstoppable after that and I was so mad.
ME: I like that we can talk about envy.
THEM: After I read your last conversation I said--I really just did this so we could have an open dialogue about envy.
ME: (Laughs.) Because nobody talks about it.
THEM: You keep saying 'Nobody talks about' this or that, and you're right some of the time, but in this case, yes, NOBODY talks about envy and, uh, how mad it makes you. What a--what a truly terrible person it makes you when you just give into it.
ME: So you were envious of me?
THEM: Very much so.
ME: I've been envious of you before.
THEM: Did you ever want to see me fail?
ME: Uh.
THEM: Me, your friend, did you ever want to see me, your friend of many years, fail?
(Silence.)
ME: Yes.
THEM: And I wanted to see you fail. Many times.
ME: I...
THEM: And that's why people walk away from this, right? Because that's who it can turn you into.
ME: That's brutal.
THEM: Isn't it?
ME: Wow.
THEM: Wow, wow, wow.
ME: Yeah.
THEM: Anyway
ME: (Laughs.) Anyway--
THEM: So nobody cared that you did well?
ME: Nobody cared, like, I mean, in terms of, people who could help me move onto
the next project or whatever.
THEM: Did Ed tell you that you did good?
ME: Did the Artistic Director--
THEM: Right, some people might not know.
ME: He did tell me I did well, yeah.
THEM: But did he say--'Let's talk about another project for--'
ME: Nope.
THEM: Really?
ME: Really.
THEM: That's crazy.
ME: To be clear, he was very very nice and thought I did a great job.
THEM: But he didn't say 'Let's sit down and talk about you playing Hamlet?'
ME: No.
THEM: That's nuts.
ME: But nobody else did either.
THEM: Right.
ME: And then you start to take it personally, like, 'Okay, so maybe think I
can act but they hate me so much, they don't care.'
THEM: And that would bother you?
ME: Are you kidding?
THEM: (Laughs.) It wouldn't bother me as long as they thought
I was talented.
ME: Oh, that's not enough for me.
THEM: No?
ME: No way. That was the validation. I used theater--I used being
good at theater to make people like me.
THEM: That doesn't work.
ME: Yeah, where were you when I was eight-years-old learning
all my lines for Bambi so I could earn Dad's approval?
THEM: (Laughs.) Sorry.
ME: You're a little late.
THEM: Sorry, sorry.
ME: I somehow, at some point, became the guy who gets the job done
and then when the job is over, nobody ever thinks to ask me to do anything
again, and, uh, I don't know how to exist like that. Like, I was raised to believe
if you do a good job, people want to involve you in what they're doing and--
THEM: That's not always the case.
ME: Right.
THEM: Even for people working at a much higher level.
ME: Some people win Oscars and then the phone doesn't ring for two years.
THEM: Yeah.
ME: And that's the thing--that's one of the things--I don't know if I can handle
moving forward.
THEM: But you have your own theater.
ME: I do. I'm lucky that way.
THEM: I--is there sarcasm there?
ME: No, but--I think that you need other people to believe in you sometimes
before you can believe in yourself. And, that's--that's not what they put on
motivational posters, but that's how it feels.
THEM: I'm getting a lot of deep dirt out of you right now.
ME: Yes, please stop.
THEM: (Laughs.) You should let me do these interview.
ME: Go right ahead.
THEM: I'll take your list.
ME: The anonymous list.
THEM: The blacklist.
ME: Yup.
THEM: I get what you mean about validation. Except, uh, in my case, I felt like
I walked away because I--I had peace with the fact that I was never going to get it
so I had to go get it from somewhere else.
ME: So where did you go?
THEM: To alcohol.
ME: (Laughs.) Damn.
THEM: I mean, it's not funny but it's funny.
ME: So that's--something to look out for.
THEM: Oh yeah. You don't just--you don't just walk away with no plan
and then it's always healthy and great. Sometimes it really #$%-s you up.
Bad.
ME: How did you come out of that?
THEM: I got really into my work--the work, or the job--that I always
really wanted to do, and that helped. I met a great girl. We're happy.
ME: But do you miss it?
THEM: I don't know if I miss it to be honest. If I ever went back, uh...
ME: Do you think about going back?
THEM: My girlfriend tells me I should.
ME: But you don't want to?
THEM: I--I think about it. I do. I think about it all the time.
ME: But you won't do it?
THEM: I don't want the bad stuff. If I could just have the good stuff--
ME: What's the bad stuff?
THEM: The rejection. The envy, like we talked about. Uh, some of
the people.
ME: Yeah.
THEM: Are they still around?
ME: The bad ones? Yes.
THEM: (Laughs.) Only the good ones quit.
ME: No, really, ONLY the good ones quit.
THEM: Why is that?
ME: Because the good people get frustrated when they do well and
nothing happens and the bad ones expect nothing to happen because
secretly they know they're bad so they're more prepared for an uphill
slog, I guess.
THEM: You just blew my #$%-ing mind.
ME: That's why I'm the interviewer.
THEM: I give up the throne.
ME: So do you think I should quit?
THEM: I told you--
ME: Not--
THEM: Okay, so, officially--No. And don't take a break either
because you're right. If you take a break, you won't go back.
That might not be true for everybody, but I've known you a long
time and that's how it would be for you.
ME: I know.
THEM: These people are like 'Oh take a break.' Do they think
everybody comes back from a break?
ME: They just don't know what to say. Nobody knows what to say.
THEM: And that's why we're doing this.
ME: That's why.
THEM: To figure out what the #$% to say.
ME: But we still don't know.
THEM: But we'll get there.
ME: After a few hundred of these--
THEM: We'll get there.
Them used to be an actor, but now they have a girlfriend they love, a house they own, a job that fulfills them, and they still think about going back.
with an anonymous friend about why they walked away from theater entirely, I got a ton of responses
from people who also wanted to talk with me, and many of them were willing to go on record about
their experiences in an effort to help other people feel like they're not alone in the fight.
I'm not sure how many of these I'm going to do, but I'm not going to put a cap on it either.
Hope you can get something out of it.
ME: So I should start by telling the people reading this that you haven't done theater in--?
THEM: It's been about three years now.
ME: And before that you were doing it pretty regularly.
THEM: I had been doing it since I was twelve. It was always something I wanted to do.
ME: So what made you stop? THEM: This is way more formal than that last conversation? ME: I know, I feel like I'm Diane Sawyer all of a sudden.
THEM: Just don't make me cry like you did with that last person.
ME: I didn't MAKE them cry. They cried on their own.
THEM: I'm a big crier, so I'll probably start any minute now.
ME: Okay, so let's pivot--what did you get out of reading the last conversation? THEM: It was just a lot of what I'd been feeling which is why I reached out.
ME: And have you been watching the comments and stuff on social media.
THEM: Yeah, and I don't mean to be mean, but--
ME: Uh oh.
THEM: No, I just have to say, #$T! all these people being like, 'Oh, walk away.
It's good for you.' You said a million times you didn't WANT to walk away and
that you were just having a tough time and instead of these people being like
'Well, let me help' they're like 'Sorry, maybe you should quit.' #$% them.
ME: Some people offered to help.
THEM: Yeah? ME: Yeah, but it was a lot of 'Let's get coffee.'
THEM: Ugh, I #$%-ing hate that.
ME: It's something, but--
THEM: I don't need coffee. I need you to cast me in a #$%-ing play.
ME: (Laughs.) Or deal with the crazy actor who's e-mailing me right now.
THEM: I like when people are say 'I want to help you, but I want to determine
the help that I give you.'
ME: And sometimes they just can't help. That's the thing.
THEM: Right, that's true.
ME: I can't blame them, because where I've wound up, personally, is
'Look, I can barely keep my head up, so I'm here for you, but I gotta be
honest and say I'm not sure I have a lot of extra strength to go around
at the moment.'
THEM: That's real. That's how a lot of people are now.
ME: We've all got enough for ourselves, and we're not sure how much
we can afford to give to anybody else.
THEM: Mentally I was there right before I, uh, before I stepped away, yeah.
ME: Are you going to cry? THEM: (Laughs.) #$%^ you.
ME: When I transcribe this, every time you swear, I'm going to do all the weird symbols.
THEM: No dashes?
ME: No dashes.
THEM: Nice.
ME: Gonna try the symbols.
THEM: Can we be honest for a second and talk about what specifically is bothering you?
Like, what is the real struggle? Do you know?
ME: I--Okay, so I was talking with my therapist--
THEM: Oh @#$%.
ME: And she pointed out that the moment when I was finally like, 'I'm good'--
THEM: And when was this moment? ME: Are you interviewing me? THEM: I think I am.
ME: Okay, because I didn't sign up for that.
THEM: (Laughs.) This was my plan the whole time.
ME: So, uh, I was doing this solo play called "Buyer and Cellar"--
THEM: You were good in that.
ME: Thank you.
THEM: I was so mad.
ME: Why??? THEM: Because I wanted that role.
ME: It's not like we auditioned--
THEM: No, but I was just like--I should play that role.
ME: Well now they know you're a man.
THEM: I said I didn't care if I was anonymous.
ME: Right, but I'm being consistent in case I do a hundred of these.
THEM: Nobody wants that.
ME: Nobody. So anyway, I'm doing this play, this solo play, and up until that point
I was always really insecure about myself as an actor, and acting--that was all I
wanted to do--was for people to think of me as a good actor.
THEM: Okay.
ME: So I do this solo play, and it's like, Okay, if I can nail this, then nobody
can ever say I'm a bad actor again.
THEM: You didn't really think that? ME: It's all, like, subconscious--is what I'm learning.
THEM: Okay.
ME: So I do the play, and it's a big success, and the night the big review came out
it was this rave review, and right in that moment--ugh, this is so embarrassing--
THEM: Say it.
ME: Right in that moment I was like 'I'm good. I did it. I don't have to do this
anymore.'
THEM: Wow.
ME: That's so humiliating to admit.
THEM: That a good review made you feel complete?
ME: That maybe that's what I needed. It's gross.
THEM: Was that really it though?
ME: Well, it was probably the combination of a good review, we had a sold out press night the day of the review, big standing ovation, all these people telling me how great I was--
THEM: Did it feel like a culmination?
ME: Yes! Oh my god, yes. That's the word.
THEM: And then you were done?
ME: I felt done but I didn't know that's what it was.
THEM: Okay.
ME: And I think I've been...kind of done since but trying not to be done. So--the projects have just gotten crazier and crazier but not necessarily more meaningful to me, which is probably the path I should have gone down.
THEM: Because you needed validation--
ME: Right.
THEM: Then you stopped needing it but you didn't know it.
ME: And now it's this embarrassing thing like when I did "Hedwig" people would cheer and I'd be like 'Oh, this is that thing I used to need. Ugh, I feel weird.'
THEM: It's like how people who quit something can't be near it anymore.
ME: It just felt like a reminder that I used to be that caricature of an actor who desperately needs love all the time.
THEM: But you're still like that.
ME: (Laughs.) I am, but I--I guess I now look for it in other ways.
THEM: Healthier ways?
(Silence.)
ME: Sure, let's go with that.
THEM: (Laughs.) Okay.
ME: Yeah--I think--I think healthier--like, writing is part of it.
THEM: Okay.
ME: But yeah, and--I think after that show--after "Buyer and Cellar," the other thing that really messed with my head was thinking that it would be like when an actor is in a hit movie and then, like, everyone's calling them to be like 'Come be in MY movie now!'
THEM: That didn't happen?
ME: Nooooo.
THEM: So you thought like Trinity would call--
ME: I thought Trinity would call and be like 'You just got awesome reviews in this one-man show and people are loving it and it's so good, come work with us.' Yes. That's what I thought--like, not Realistic Me, but Unrealistic-Optimistic Me.
THEM: Isn't it sad that unrealistic and optimistic are now interchangeable?
ME: Very sad.
THEM: So nobody called, which is great, because I thought that's what was going to happen for you. I really thought you were going to be unstoppable after that and I was so mad.
ME: I like that we can talk about envy.
THEM: After I read your last conversation I said--I really just did this so we could have an open dialogue about envy.
ME: (Laughs.) Because nobody talks about it.
THEM: You keep saying 'Nobody talks about' this or that, and you're right some of the time, but in this case, yes, NOBODY talks about envy and, uh, how mad it makes you. What a--what a truly terrible person it makes you when you just give into it.
ME: So you were envious of me?
THEM: Very much so.
ME: I've been envious of you before.
THEM: Did you ever want to see me fail?
ME: Uh.
THEM: Me, your friend, did you ever want to see me, your friend of many years, fail?
(Silence.)
ME: Yes.
THEM: And I wanted to see you fail. Many times.
ME: I...
THEM: And that's why people walk away from this, right? Because that's who it can turn you into.
ME: That's brutal.
THEM: Isn't it?
ME: Wow.
THEM: Wow, wow, wow.
ME: Yeah.
THEM: Anyway
ME: (Laughs.) Anyway--
THEM: So nobody cared that you did well?
ME: Nobody cared, like, I mean, in terms of, people who could help me move onto
the next project or whatever.
THEM: Did Ed tell you that you did good?
ME: Did the Artistic Director--
THEM: Right, some people might not know.
ME: He did tell me I did well, yeah.
THEM: But did he say--'Let's talk about another project for--'
ME: Nope.
THEM: Really?
ME: Really.
THEM: That's crazy.
ME: To be clear, he was very very nice and thought I did a great job.
THEM: But he didn't say 'Let's sit down and talk about you playing Hamlet?'
ME: No.
THEM: That's nuts.
ME: But nobody else did either.
THEM: Right.
ME: And then you start to take it personally, like, 'Okay, so maybe think I
can act but they hate me so much, they don't care.'
THEM: And that would bother you?
ME: Are you kidding?
THEM: (Laughs.) It wouldn't bother me as long as they thought
I was talented.
ME: Oh, that's not enough for me.
THEM: No?
ME: No way. That was the validation. I used theater--I used being
good at theater to make people like me.
THEM: That doesn't work.
ME: Yeah, where were you when I was eight-years-old learning
all my lines for Bambi so I could earn Dad's approval?
THEM: (Laughs.) Sorry.
ME: You're a little late.
THEM: Sorry, sorry.
ME: I somehow, at some point, became the guy who gets the job done
and then when the job is over, nobody ever thinks to ask me to do anything
again, and, uh, I don't know how to exist like that. Like, I was raised to believe
if you do a good job, people want to involve you in what they're doing and--
THEM: That's not always the case.
ME: Right.
THEM: Even for people working at a much higher level.
ME: Some people win Oscars and then the phone doesn't ring for two years.
THEM: Yeah.
ME: And that's the thing--that's one of the things--I don't know if I can handle
moving forward.
THEM: But you have your own theater.
ME: I do. I'm lucky that way.
THEM: I--is there sarcasm there?
ME: No, but--I think that you need other people to believe in you sometimes
before you can believe in yourself. And, that's--that's not what they put on
motivational posters, but that's how it feels.
THEM: I'm getting a lot of deep dirt out of you right now.
ME: Yes, please stop.
THEM: (Laughs.) You should let me do these interview.
ME: Go right ahead.
THEM: I'll take your list.
ME: The anonymous list.
THEM: The blacklist.
ME: Yup.
THEM: I get what you mean about validation. Except, uh, in my case, I felt like
I walked away because I--I had peace with the fact that I was never going to get it
so I had to go get it from somewhere else.
ME: So where did you go?
THEM: To alcohol.
ME: (Laughs.) Damn.
THEM: I mean, it's not funny but it's funny.
ME: So that's--something to look out for.
THEM: Oh yeah. You don't just--you don't just walk away with no plan
and then it's always healthy and great. Sometimes it really #$%-s you up.
Bad.
ME: How did you come out of that?
THEM: I got really into my work--the work, or the job--that I always
really wanted to do, and that helped. I met a great girl. We're happy.
ME: But do you miss it?
THEM: I don't know if I miss it to be honest. If I ever went back, uh...
ME: Do you think about going back?
THEM: My girlfriend tells me I should.
ME: But you don't want to?
THEM: I--I think about it. I do. I think about it all the time.
ME: But you won't do it?
THEM: I don't want the bad stuff. If I could just have the good stuff--
ME: What's the bad stuff?
THEM: The rejection. The envy, like we talked about. Uh, some of
the people.
ME: Yeah.
THEM: Are they still around?
ME: The bad ones? Yes.
THEM: (Laughs.) Only the good ones quit.
ME: No, really, ONLY the good ones quit.
THEM: Why is that?
ME: Because the good people get frustrated when they do well and
nothing happens and the bad ones expect nothing to happen because
secretly they know they're bad so they're more prepared for an uphill
slog, I guess.
THEM: You just blew my #$%-ing mind.
ME: That's why I'm the interviewer.
THEM: I give up the throne.
ME: So do you think I should quit?
THEM: I told you--
ME: Not--
THEM: Okay, so, officially--No. And don't take a break either
because you're right. If you take a break, you won't go back.
That might not be true for everybody, but I've known you a long
time and that's how it would be for you.
ME: I know.
THEM: These people are like 'Oh take a break.' Do they think
everybody comes back from a break?
ME: They just don't know what to say. Nobody knows what to say.
THEM: And that's why we're doing this.
ME: That's why.
THEM: To figure out what the #$% to say.
ME: But we still don't know.
THEM: But we'll get there.
ME: After a few hundred of these--
THEM: We'll get there.
Them used to be an actor, but now they have a girlfriend they love, a house they own, a job that fulfills them, and they still think about going back.
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