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On Giving Up: Let's Take the Gloves Off

If you've been following my series of conversations with people who have decided to step away from the arts--mainly theater--then I should tell you this one is a little...different.

You'll see why when you read ahead.

For this conversation, Them is someone I worked with on a production quite a few years ago.  It was not a good experience for anyone involved.  They stopped doing theater shortly after that production, and when they contacted me asking if we could talk, I was a little surprised, because we haven't really conversed since, partly because I was fairly sure they blamed me for most of what transpired.

I was hesitant to have a conversation like this as part of this series, but it does touch upon a lot of why people do walk away, and it does ask the question "What's my part in making theater a place where people feel frustrated and ultimately take a step back?"

Here's what followed:

ME:  So let's dive.  Do you hate me?

THEM:  (Laughs.)  Nobody taught you small talk, huh?

ME:  I was raised by confrontational people.

THEM:  I don't hate you.  I'm really glad we're doing this.  That this was, uh, an excuse to do this.  I'm really happy about that.

ME:  Me too.  But there was a thing.

THEM:  You want to call that a thing?

ME:  Yeah, let's start with a thing.

THEM:  Okay, how much do you want to get into it?

ME:  Um, all right, so--we were in a show together.

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  That I produced.  In my early days of producing.

THEM:  Your origins.

ME:  Yeah.

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  And there was a director.

THEM:  If you want to--yeah.

ME:  Oh, okay.  Already getting--

THEM:  Sorry, sorry.

ME:  (Laughs.)  It's okay, so--you and the director did not get along.

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  And there was a lot of, um, turmoil?

THEM:  (Laughs.)  Yes.

ME:  And you--should I say felt or are you going to--

THEM:  You can say felt.

ME:  You felt that I had sided with the director.  Is that fair to say?

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  Okay.  And you stepped away from theater shortly after that?

THEM:  Yes.  And I contacted you a few days ago because I read what you wrote and I wanted to talk with you about what you feel your part is in making theater both a positive and a negative place.

ME:  Well, I'm ruthlessly ambitious and I gossip a lot.

THEM:  Okay.

ME:  Is that enough in terms of negativity?

THEM:  So then do you take responsibility for that?

ME:  I admit to it, yeah.

THEM:  But do you try to change it?

ME:  Uh--the thing is--

THEM:  Here we go.

ME:  I won't really apologize for being ambitious, because I admire ambition in others.

THEM:  And gossip?

ME:  When you don't gossip, people use it against you.

THEM:  How?

ME:  Like, sometimes I find out that someone cast an asshole in their show, and they'll be like 'Why didn't you tell me he was an asshole' and I'll say 'If you gossiped, you'd know that.'

THEM:  (Laughs.)  So did you do that with me?

ME:  Did I--Did I tell people not to cast you?

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  I told them about what happened.

THEM:  Your version of what happened.

ME:  Okay, fine.  My version--which I am entitled to have--I told them that.

THEM:  Okay.

ME:  And you could have told them your version too.

THEM:  Not really though, because you're Kevin Broccoli and I'm me.

ME:  Right, and sometimes I tell people 'Hey, look out for so-and-so' and they work with them anyway, so it goes both ways.

THEM:  I just think that's a really shitty thing to do.

ME:  You were difficult.  I said you were difficult.

THEM:  I wasn't being difficult.

ME:  You don't think you were?

THEM:  I know I wasn't.  Your director was being difficult.

ME:  I want to talk more about you taking a break, but we can dip into this for a second, what was your problem with the director exactly?

THEM:  That they didn't know what they were doing.

ME:  And you felt like you had to speak out about that?

THEM:  You wouldn't speak out about that?

ME:  Not anymore.

THEM:  You used to.

ME:  Yeah, then I took a seat at this side of the table, and now I feel differently.

THEM:  So you don't care about actors anymore?

ME:  I'm still an actor.

THEM:  Right, but you're on the other side of the table.

ME:  I'm on the side of 'Kevin was puking his guts out from a stomach virus getting e-mails from his supposed friend asking if they could have a meeting because he didn't like how he was being directed and that's bullshit.'  That's what side I'm on.

THEM:  I'm sorry that part of your job is dealing with that stuff.  Is that why you want to walk away?

ME:  I want people to get in a room and make theater and not drive each other insane.  And if your position on it is 'I don't see why I can't be allowed to drive people insane--'

THEM:  So I'm supposed to just show up and shut up?

ME:  Not shut up.  The playwright gave you lines.  Say those.

THEM:  Okay.

ME:  If you can remember them.

THEM:  Oh okay.

ME:  I mean...

THEM:  So actually that's part of why I walked away.

ME:  Because you couldn't remember lines?

THEM:  I know I had an issue with that, yeah.

ME:  This just got super unhealthy.

THEM:  I think you took it there.

ME:  I did, because this is just very sensitive for me right now.

THEM:  What is?

ME:  That you don't care that you made my life a living hell for weeks on end--

THEM:  You never said--

ME:  I don't have to say it.  You're an adult.  You can't tell you're making somebody miserable?  And if I said 'Hey, you're making me miserable right now' you would have just said exactly what you said just now--'Well, it's your job.'  And then you wonder why maybe I don't want it to be my job anymore.

THEM:  If you don't, then I understand.

ME:  But you wouldn't go back and change your behavior?

THEM:  And let myself look like an idiot up onstage?

ME:  You're an actor and you had a bad director.  Okay.  So you take the bad stuff and make it look good.  That's your job.  You think I never had to do that?

THEM:  Maybe I'm not as good as you?

ME:  Maybe you're not.

THEM:  But you were my friend and you should have backed me up.

ME:  I'm sorry--do you remember when you lost your shit because the director didn't like the shirt you brought in?

THEM:  It was the way he said it.

ME:  I once had a director tell me I was worthless.  He called me worthless.  I was nineteen.  Your director said, 'I don't like that shirt' and you wanted to burn down the theater.

THEM:  That director should not have said that to you and you should not expect people to put up with what you put up with just because--

ME:  I don't.  I don't expect that.  But those two things are not the same.  That's the point I'm making.

THEM:  Okay.  So I just need to toughen up then.

ME:  I think so, yes.

THEM:  Okay, so you win the conversation.  I'm tough.  You're weak.  You win.  Is that it?  Are we good?

ME:  Ugh.

THEM:  This was a running theme with you and I don't know if other people tell you this, but you literally punish people for not being as strong as you are.

ME:  And other people call me strong and put that on me so that I'm not allowed to fall apart and they don't have to be sensitive to me at all.  It's a double standard.

THEM:  That's true.  I'll give you that.  That is true.

ME:  So I'm the reason you stopped doing this?

THEM:  I just...I lost my friend so.  We were really good friends.

ME:  We were.

THEM:  For years.

ME:  For years, yeah.  Until I was--when was this?  When did all this happen?

THEM:  Seven years ago?

ME:  Wow.

THEM:  We haven't talked in seven years.

(Silence.)

ME:  This is why I go, 'Okay, I'm just done.'

THEM:  Because of stuff like this?

ME:  I just--everybody's so confrontational and so aggressive and so unfeeling and like--how do you do theater and make art and make people happy if you're just miserable and you're working with miserable people who are trying to make you miserable because the director wants them to wear another shirt?

THEM:  Can I--so you know I teach now right?  Like full-time?

ME:  Yeah.

THEM:  So I think this came up in another conversation--about the authority?

ME:  It might have.  I've had so many of these like on and off record or whatever.

THEM:  So I notice the pushback from authority is way worse than usual lately and I think it's probably something that would--um--probably hurt the relationship actors are supposed to have with directors, because--like, with the kids that are growing up today, what people are we giving them to look up to?  They see the Harvey Weinstein stories and, uh--

ME:  The President.

THEM:  Yes, the President.  Exactly.  And the ones who go into theater--we put them in a room and say 'Hey, this person is in charge.  Give them all your trust.'  They're like 'Screw that.  I just met this guy.'  And there probably is a sense that, uh, there should be a hierarchy in theater, but nobody wants a hierarchy now, because nobody wants to trust the person at the top.  We don't have any trust anymore.

ME:  Yeah, but you didn't have trust seven years ago.

THEM:  I trusted you.

ME:  Thank you.  I'm sorry if I lost that trust.

THEM:  Clearly I also lost yours.

ME:  Yes.

THEM:  That's probably what felt like--like we can't rebuild this.

ME:  Right, because there was no trust anymore.

THEM:  But to blame that on theater--

ME:  Yeah.

THEM:  We only knew each other because of theater.  Theater brought you into my life.  It brought a lot of great people into my life.

ME:  But do you meet people other ways now?

THEM:  No, I have no friends.

ME:  (Laughs.)  Friends are exhausting anyway.

THEM:  Something about you giving me the cold shoulder was extra bad.  It's just--when you like someone you're very into them and then when you're mad, it's just like this--

ME:  I cast a shadow?

THEM:  Yeah.

ME:  Jennifer Garner said that about Ben Affleck.  That he casts a long shadow.

THEM:  You're like Ben Affleck.

ME:  I want to be mad about that, but he's so handsome.

THEM:  He's Batman.

ME:  Well, not anymore.

THEM:  No?

ME:  You didn't hear that?

THEM:  No!

ME:  You gotta get with it.

THEM:  See, I'm so out of the loop.

ME:  This is easily the most contentious one of these I've done.  Can we bring it back to something positive?

THEM:  But this is real, right?  Like, this is the real shit.

ME:  But where does it get us?

THEM:  These are the conversations you need to be having with people you do theater with and not just let it--like, just stop the conversation.

ME:  But so much of it is perception.  It's so personal.  This fight with us?  This was so personal.

THEM:  It was.

ME:  And so it's not like 'You lied' or 'I lied' it's like--we just saw it differently.

THEM:  Because we're artists.

ME:  Right, and that didn't help--obviously.

THEM:  I did some stuff wrong.  I'll say that.  I'm sorry for what I did wrong.  I was--I could have handled things differently.

ME:  If I was capable of saying 'I'm sorry--'

THEM:  (Laughs.)  Some things don't change, huh?

ME:  I'm sorry, too.

THEM:  So you want to talk about you quitting?

ME:  I think we're out of time.

THEM:  That was it, huh?

ME:  Let me ask you--Do you miss it?

THEM:  I miss it so bad.

ME:  Really?

THEM:  Yeah, but--theater isn't a real thing.  It's just people.  But the idea--it's an idea--theater.  So you can't really miss it, because when it's not actively a part of your life--it's not like somebody took the microwave out of my house, right?  That's a real, useful thing that I would, uh, notice--if it was gone.  Theater isn't like that.  You can't notice, because it's not a physical thing in your life.  So it's more like--figuring out that you're lonely.  You just don't wake up one day lonely.  You discover you're lonely and when you, uh, discover it, uh--

ME:  You've already been lonely for a really long time.

THEM:  Yeah.

ME:  That's me.

THEM:  Really?

ME:  Yeah, I feel very lonely.  Surrounded by people and really, really lonely.

THEM:  Why do you think that is?

ME:  Um...because...so I don't know this connects--

THEM:  Just speak.  Don't censor.

ME:  I feel like I could have been so much more than what I am now, and that makes me feel lonely.

THEM:  That's fine.

ME:  But that doesn't compute.

THEM:  F*** computing.  Seriously?  Who cares if it computes?

ME:  Now people are going to read this and message me and be like 'Are you okay?  I'm here for you.'

THEM:  Hey people reading this--Don't do that.

ME:  Please don't do that.  Send me photos of pugs if you want, but don't say 'I'm here for you.'  I can't stand that.

THEM:  But you're lonely.

ME:  But I don't think loneliness, in my case, is going to be solved by hearing that I'm not alone.  Again, doesn't make sense.

THEM:  But it's real.

ME:  So you miss theater.  Do you miss me?

THEM:  I didn't think I did, but I'm sitting here talking with you, and I forgot that you made me laugh.

ME:  That's all I have going for me.

THEM:  Really, though, that's it.

ME:  Remember how nice I was.

THEM:  You don't think you're nice anymore?

ME:  No, I don't.  I think I used to be.  And I miss that.  I miss being nice.

THEM:  Okay, so honestly, you were never nice.

ME:  (Laughs.)  Yeah, maybe I was nicer?

THEM:  You miss being young.

ME:  I'm not old.

THEM:  You miss being--you miss the opportunity you had to, like, win an Oscar at nineteen and achieve everything early so you could coast the rest of the way.

ME:  That is a deep f***ing cut right there.

THEM:  But is it wrong?

ME:  It's not wrong.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  I still know you.

ME:  You do.

THEM:  And I do miss you.

ME:  I miss you too.

THEM:  So quit theater and let's be friends again.

ME:  Theater's like the guy who came between us.

THEM:  And now you're done with him and we can hang out.

ME:  I'm not done yet.

THEM:  That was always you.  You were always putting up a fight.

ME:  I like a good fight.

THEM:  Clearly you do.

ME:  (Laughs.)  This was a good one.

THEM:  You got some jabs in.

ME:  I'm going to regret all of it later.

THEM:  You going to edit it out?

ME:  No, let the two people who read this enjoy me at my meanest.

THEM:  I should tell them it sounded way worse hearing it.

ME:  That's true.

THEM:  Yup.

ME:  That's very true.

Them hasn't done theater in seven years, but they still own a microwave.

Comments

  1. OMG, this was superbly perfect. Probably mostly because it hit closer to home than anything I have ever read or seen in life thus far, but so wonderfully perfect. Thank you.

    ReplyDelete

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