Let's Talk About Grad School

This week’s conversation with someone who doesn’t wish to remain anonymous but will
remain so anyway revolves around school.

Specifically--grad school.

Here’s the interview:

Me:  I’m really mad that I’ve chosen the anonymous gimmick for these interviews, because
you’re actually a pretty perfect person to talk to about all this.

Them:  Because I’m a teacher?

Me:  Well, you’re a teacher.  You’ve in the arts. You’re obsessed with pop culture, like I am.

Them:  So are we doing a deep dive into the Aunt Becky cheating scandal?

Me:  No, because that moment has passed.  That happened years ago.

Them:  It happened last month.

Me:  Welcome to the New Era of Time.

Them:  Mark me down as one of the people who was not at all surprised to find out that rich
people were buying their kids into colleges.

Me:  But not even Harvard.  Was it USC?

Them:  There’s nothing wrong with USC.

Me:  Listen, if my millionaire parents are buying me into school, I want to be bought into the best.

Them:  Valid.

Me:  I actually really want to talk about grad school.

Them:  What about it?

Me:  Like, why are people still going?

Them:  (Laughs.)  Oh boy.

Me:  And I’m totally the person who didn’t go shitting on something that I have no experience in,
but I should mention that I would absolutely have gone if circumstances had been different.

Them:  Such as?

Me:  Having money.

Them:  Nobody has the money for grad school.

Me:  I bet Aunt Becky does.

Them:  She does, but most people don’t.

Me:  Can you talk a little bit about your grad school experience?

Them:  Should I mention where I went to school?

Me:  You can if you want.

Them:  Uh, okay, well--I might not--I might not need to?  Um, so I went to grad school, and
I went for theater, and now I’m teaching theater, so that, I guess, worked out for me.

Me:  So you had a positive experience?

Them:  Wellllllllll not exactly.

Me:  Okay.

Them:  I think it worked out well for me, but I know a lot of people it...did not work for,
and now when I talk to my students about grad school, I really try to make it clear to them
that you should be going to school to be educated and only assume that what you’re going
to walk out with when you’re done is that education.

Me:  As opposed to?

Them:  An instant job.  Connections. Um, like a role on Broadway or something.

Me:  Do you think less people would be going to grad school if the schools themselves
made it clear that those things are usually not the results of going to grad school?

Them:  I don’t know if I can talk about the results of every grad school, and I don’t know if
it would have an impact if, uh, you told prospective students--Hey look, we’re offering you
a degree and that’s it, because, let’s face it, some of these schools are charging so much
for these degrees, and the reality is, in terms of the actual facts you’re learning, at least
in the case of theater, you could learn those same things from creating an independent
educational experience for yourself with private classes and books--

Me:  And it wouldn’t cost you tens of thousands of dollars--

Them:  And two-to-three years of your life where maybe you’re not able to work because
you’re in school.

Me:  So why do people go do you think?

Them:  Just speaking in terms of--I mean, we know why people who want to be doctors
go--but I think for people in the arts, it’s--so I really wanted to be a college professor.  
That was my dream. That dream has come true. It’s now a--

Me:  Nightmare?

Them:  (Laughs.)  No, it’s, uh--Well, reality I guess is the best and truest word for what it is.
 I’m very, very happy with what I do. But I’m also noticing a lot of people who...didn’t
go to grad school working with me.

Me:  And how does that...make you feel?

Them:  Listen, nobody wants to be that person who’s going on and on about how much
they paid for a degree and how nobody should be allowed in if they don’t have one,
because that just makes you sound like a snob and, uh, not a good person, really, but
the fact is, I *did* spend a lot getting this degree so that I *could* teach at the college
level, and if it’s now becoming accepted that, uh, you don’t *need* that degree to teach
at the college level, then yes, I would like some of my money back.

Me:  But you were just saying people shouldn’t go into grad school with that being the
expectation--that you’re leaving with some advantage in the job market.

Them:  Right, that it’s just about education.  That’s what I say to students now,
because that’s what I wish someone had said to me.

Me:  And I would imagine sometimes you don’t even like the education you wind up with?

Them:  Which is why you do your homework before you get in--if you can afford to do
the homework.  Not everyone can. You should be doing multiple visits to schools,
talking with faculty, talking with alumni--

Me:  Right.

Them:  People need to start thinking about going to grad school the way they would
think about having a baby or getting married.  It should be at that level. It is a huge
commitment, and now, with tuition-free and debt-free becoming more common--which
is great--people seem to be thinking they can make the decision more casually than
they did before--and that is just not the case.  It is still a major decision. You are immersing
yourself in an experience that is going to change you and you need to make sure that
change is something you want in your life.

Me:  But you don’t regret going?

Them:  I don’t regret it, but I recognize that I was lucky.  I know a lot of people who regret it.

Me:  Can I ask--what are the conversations like when someone is hired to work with you
and they don’t have that degree--like, what’s the reasoning behind it?  Not that I’m bashing
them, I’ve been in that same position--

Them:  Right, you’re the problem.

Me:  (Laughs.)  Story of my life.

Them:  Uh, to be clear, I’m not bashing them either, uh, and usually, the conversation is
about their experience.  And, in some cases, that’s valid. I actually just voted to hire
someone in my department who doesn’t have an advanced degree but is someone
who’s worked in the industry for about thirty years and you can definitely make the
case that there’s value in that beyond what any grad school could give you, but it’s
also very very subjective in a way that I--If it’s not a problem already, it definitely will be soon.

Me:  Can you go a little further with that?

Them:  I just don’t know how we go down the road of hiring theater artists based on
experience when experiences can vary so wildly and experience, uh, also has very
little to do with imparting knowledge to others.  You and I both took a class in Boston
with a--very famous actor--

Me:  Oh boy.

Them:  (Laughs.)  And it is was very clear that he is a genius, uh, he was a--

Me:  A lousy f***ing teacher.

Them:  Yes, he was very bad.

Me:  But he had lots of experience.

Them:  And I’m sure some colleges would hire him in a heartbeat based on that
experience, and that’s why I think it’s good to have that advanced degree as a kind of--

Me:  But people can get degrees and still be bad teachers.

Them:  They can, yes.  But it’s something, at least.  It doesn’t force us to have these
uncomfortable conversations about what determines valued experience versus
someone who has maybe worked a lot, but isn’t able to translate that knowledge
if that makes sense.

Me:  And also--you spent a lot on your degree and you want that to mean something.  
Don’t feel guilty about that.

Them:  I do though--sometimes--because, listen, many industries end up in a place
where people go to school to learn something and a generation later their degrees
are meaningless due to all sorts of evolutions, right?  I’m aware of that and I’m not
going to rant and rave about it. But I think there’s a changing culture--or maybe it’s
always been here--of having schools become casting factories, because, uh, students
are getting savvier.  People are keeping a tighter hold on their money. They’re looking
at what we, as schools, offer them, and what we charge them, and they’re not necessarily
going to sign up based only on an education. So it becomes this thing of--Well, who’s
getting the most jobs.  I mean, in terms of former students. Who’s on Broadway.
Who’s on television. My grad school class was this really interesting mix of weirdos
and freaks--(Laughs)--and I loved it, and I went to a showcase recently and it looked
like a bunch of supermodels doing Shakespeare.  It was sort of shocking. And I’m
not saying these actors were bad, but they were--It looked like the school had a new
mission, and I’m not sure I’d be onboard with what that mission is.

Me:  And the mission is--get a bunch of actors cast on a CW show.

Them:  (Laughs.)  I’m laughing, but it might be that.  It might really be that.

Me:  And is that also a reflection of the industry as a whole right now?

Them:  Definitely, but--we’re not the industry.  We, meaning, the education--the, uh,
the--we’re preparing them for the industry, yes.  But I’ve seen a lot of college programs
do a lot of bad things in the name of--Well, I’m just doing to these kids what they’re
going to have done to them when they get out in the real world.

Me:  That sounds ominous.

Them:  You have no idea.

Me:  So you think it should be preparation not something where everything we do
is based on giving you the industry experience before you’re in the industry?

Them:  Yes, because, the industry doesn’t care about education, right?  I mean,
they really don’t. They might think it’s nice if you’re trained, but they’re also giving
Broadway careers to fourteen-year-olds, so--I don’t know why we’re modeling
ourselves after a world that doesn’t always respect us.

Me:  This feels like a much bigger conversation to have about the value of
education in general.

Them:  Right, because, no matter what kind of education you’re talking about,
it’s the--sometimes battle of--practical learning versus education for the sake
of acquiring knowledge.  There’s nothing wrong with saying ‘I should know
how to get an agent when I leave grad school’ or ‘Grad school should help
set me up with an agent.’ That’s okay. But that shouldn’t be *why* you’re in
grad school.  You should be getting things in grad school that you can’t get
anywhere else. There are books on how to find agents that you can buy for
ten bucks on Amazon.

Me:  So what are the things grad school can offer that nothing else can?

Them:  Part of it is that experience--with your classmates, with your teachers--
that helps foster and turn you into the artist you want to be.  Not just, uh, this
warrior who’s ready to go out into the world and start booking jobs. Those
are two different things.

Me:  Do you have sort of a--I’m detecting kind of a disdain for the business
side or the business in general.

Them:  Does anyone not have disdain for the business?

Me:  (Laughs.)  That’s fair.

Them:  But--I’m not naive.  I know that it’s something to consider and be aware of,
but everybody has to be aware of what they’re bringing to the table.  Schools--grad
schools, all schools--need to be aware of that as well. And listen, if a student likes
a school because the school is going all in on creating a program where the goal
is to get you work as soon as you graduate, that’s okay.  But be honest about that.
Be honest about what kind of program you are and what your educational
philosophy is. And be honest that--you can’t do it all. You can’t offer students
everything. I think--

Me:  You think honesty is the best policy.

Them:  (Laughs.)  I do. I really do.

Them went to grad school, had a good experience, feels very lucky,
and now teaches at a college.