Theater and The Business Side

Today, I’m getting a little push-back (only seems fair) about 

some of what I’ve posted recently.

A friend who makes their living in the administrative part 

of the arts community wanted to challenge me about my 

ideas of theater as a business, and because I love a good 

tussle, I said “Sure.”

Here’s the interview:

ME:  So this is not going to be like all the hug-gy/kiss-y

 interviews I’ve been doing up to now.

THEM:  I might shake your hand at some point though.

ME:  We’ll work towards that.

THEM:  Do you really think this is going to be contentious?

ME:  I hope not, but it would certainly help the views.

THEM:  In that case—listen asshole—

ME:  (Laughs.)  You and I have had a lot of talks about 

theater as a business.

THEM:  And how you think that’s wrong.

ME:  It’s not that I think it’s wrong—

THEM:  Here comes the backpedaling.

ME:  No, I think there are—okay, so I think there are 

certain things we’ve adopted from the business, uh, 

community?  That we should not have—

THEM:  Adopted?

ME:  Yes.  I’m never this flummoxed by the way.   

You’re already throwing me off my game.

THEM:  It’s discourse, Kevin, not a game.

ME:  Discourse is my favorite game.  Tell me why you

 think I’m off-base.

THEM:  First you have to give me an example of what 

you’re talking about.

ME:  Okay, uh—talking points.

THEM:  What about them?

ME:  Theaters use talking points now.

THEM:  Everybody uses talking points.  We’re living

 in a marketing culture.

ME:  Explain what you mean by that.

THEM:  Everybody—because of social media and

 influencers and whatever you want to land on—everybody

 sees themselves as their own press agents.

ME:  As a brand.

THEM:  Yes, as a brand.  So now you see people behaving

 in ways—in areas of their lives—they’re applying marketing

 strategies.  Theater is following that trend, but it’s not 

specifically a problem that theater has that our culture as 

a whole does not.

ME:  But shouldn’t we be commenting on it instead of

 adopting it?

THEM:  I’m not even sure having talking points be a part 

of an arts organization is a bad thing.

ME:  It’s spin.

THEM:  There’s always been spin.

ME:  It has an air of, you know, deception about it.

THEM:  It’s theater, isn’t it?  Aren’t we constantly lying to

 people?  Isn’t that what they expect of us?

ME:  But it’s a very corporate way of doing things.

THEM:  See, I don’t see talking points as being corporate. 

 Now, if you said political—

ME:  Okay.

THEM:  That I could see, but I still don’t see the issue.  

 Theater is political.

ME:  But it’s political in a negative way.

THEM:  It’s just watching what you say.  It’s having your 

narrative straight.  You can’t walk out the door without a

 narrative these days.  That’s just how it is.

ME:  And pandering?

THEM:  You’re talking about producing shows based on 

how well they’re going to sell?

ME:  No, I wouldn’t make that argument.  That’s naïve. 

  I’m talking about structuring your organization to look 

woke when really you’re Goldman Sachs.

THEM:  I think that’s extreme.

ME:  You are—can I talk about your job?

THEM:  What do you want to talk about in relation to it?

ME:  I just want to say what you do.

THEM:  Go ahead.

ME:  So you’re the Executive Director of a company.

THEM:  Correct.

ME:  A pretty large company.

THEM:  Correct.

ME:  How many meetings would you say you have a day?

THEM:  Meetings?

ME:  Yes.  Committee meetings.  Meetings about HR. 

 Finance meetings.  That kind of thing.  Not like season

 planning.

THEM:  Um.

ME:  In fact, how much of your time is spent on things

 that have absolutely nothing to do with theater?

THEM:  A large amount, but remember, I’m not engaged

 in the creative life of the organization.

ME:  And you don’t see that as a problem?

THEM:  I see you thinking that what I do has nothing to

 do with theater as you being very unaware of how 

important it is that the lights stay on.

ME:  But I feel like I see more and more of people in your

 positions having more of an influence over the creative 

side of things while all the while saying they don’t really.

THEM:  Let’s put it this way—If I notice that somebody 

on the creative side is doing something that’s going to

 prevent me from doing my job—

ME:  Keeping the lights on?

THEM:  Yes.  If I see that—I will say something about it.

ME:  But are they allowed to say anything to you about

 how you do your job?

THEM:  They could, but it rarely comes up.

ME:  And don’t you find that interesting?

THEM:  Not really.  It’s not unusual to say that money 

dictates how things should go and the opposite—the 

arts dictating the money—that’s just not something that happens.

ME:  Based on what?

THEM:  Based on how the world works, Kevin.   

Come on.

ME:  I’m willing to accept business being a necessary 

part of making art, but when it tries to dress itself up 

AS art—that’s where I have a problem.

THEM:  Okay, say more about that.

ME:  A push towards diversity.

THEM:  Are you really coming out as being anti-diversity?

ME:  No, but I think there’s a lot of…insincerity

involved as far as why it’s happening.

THEM:  Why do you think it’s happening?

ME:  I think—in some cases—it’s because it benefits 

you financially.

THEM:  Really?

ME:  Grants are a thing, right?

THEM:  Are you talking about my organization?

ME:  I’m talking about—I mean, we can—

THEM:  We can talk about whatever you want.

ME:  Well not whatever I—

THEM:  Anything you want, Kevin.  You seem to have 

something you want to say, so say it.

ME:  Your theater is doing a play by a trans playwright

 this year.

THEM:  Correct.

ME:  Which you got a grant for.

THEM:  We did.

ME:  Would you still have done the play if that grant—

THEM:  We wouldn’t have been able to, that’s the reason

 there’s a grant.

ME:  But you—your theater—has shown no interest in—

I couldn’t even find another example of you doing a play 

by a gay playwright or something with a gay character in it—

THEM:  So you did your homework.

ME:  And now all of a sudden—a play by a trans playwright

 about trans characters and you’re getting all this press for it, 

and I don’t think you give a shit about anything other than 

the fact that the play is only going to cost you one sixth of

 the grant and the theater gets to keep the rest, which is nuts

 by the way.

THEM:  Wouldn’t you just be happy that we’re doing the

 play at all?

ME:  No, I’d be happy if a theater that was already 

committed to issues like these was given the opportunity

 to do it.

THEM:  We’re going to be able to get it out to a lot more people.

ME:  Theoretically.  Your audience hasn’t seen anything 

edgier than The Music Man in twenty years.  Now you’re 

throwing work like this at them?

THEM:  It seems very damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t.   

If we play it safe, we get criticized.  If we try something risqué, 

we’re alienating the audience.

ME:  But this is what I’m saying—instead of thinking about all 

that, just pick a mission statement and go with it.  Why not do 

that?

THEM:  When you’re talking about—Okay, when you’re 

talking about a large organization—mine has been around 

since 1991—so almost thirty years, right?  Some places 

have been around longer.  And when you’re talking about 

a place with that kind of longevity, it’s like—I wasn’t

 there when the theater was founded.  I wasn’t privy to 

the conversations about why it was brought into existence. 

 I’m coming in twenty-two years later.

ME:  So refine the mission statement.

THEM:  According to what I want to do?

ME:  According to—I mean, check in with each other—

THEM:  For what purpose?

ME:  To see why you exist.  Unless you just exist to exist

—or to make money.

THEM:  Why does your theater exist?  Why do you 

exist in theater?  Isn’t that why you’re doing these 

interviews?  It’s hard enough for anybody—I think—

in the arts right now to say why they’re in the arts.   

You want me and my staff of almost a hundred people

—departments full of people, carpenters, box office—

you want us all to sit down and agree as to why we’re 

doing this?  It’s impossible.  And it has nothing to do 

with us being like a business.  It would be impossible

 no matter what.

ME:  But see, that’s—what you’re saying is valid, 

but I’m not sure it’s acceptable.  I’m not—I think 

you’ve traded in a mission statement—a purpose—

for talking points.  That’s what I’m saying.  You’ve

 switched over to something—inorganic.  Just—not

 real.  Fake.

THEM:  Again, it’s theater.

ME:  The work—the—what we put onstage—that’s 

not real, but we’re striving for it to be real.  And the 

only way we get there—the only way we get there is 

to be real with each other, right?

THEM:  Do you find theater people to be the most…

uh…self-aware people?  What word am I looking for

 here?  Honest?  With themselves?  Real with each

 other?  Is that your experience?

ME:  I’m just so turned off lately by how—it’s all gotten

 very cold.  Even business—even doing business or the 

business side of something—there’s still fun in it.  Or there

 can be fun.  Now, it’s just—it just feels very sterile.

THEM:  Oh, I understand.  But I don’t know what we

can do about that.  Right now I’m just doing what I said.  

 I’m just keeping the lights on.  I’ll let somebody else 

figure out why they’re on.

Them is the Executive Director of a rather large theater.