Theater, Activism, and Self-Promotion

This is a conversation that started with theater,

but quickly became about something else that

will probably still resonate with theater people.  

My anonymous for this conversation is an

activist in the truest sense of the word and has

been for over twenty years.

Here’s the interview:

ME:  You and I started talking because you have

a background in the arts and theater, but you’ve

since graduated to doing more political work.  

Activist work.

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  So--we started talking about arts and politics,

and then you brought something up that I’ve been

struggling with for awhile, so we’re going to kind of--

move the conversation in that direction.

THEM:  That sounds great.

ME:  In my mind I’ve been calling it the Alyssa Milano

effect, but even saying that makes me feel bad.

THEM:  So what is it?

ME:  It’s--

THEM:  I know what it is, because we talked about it, but--

ME:  But thank you for thinking of the people reading this.

THEM:  I like to make sure everybody’s making clear points.

ME:  That’s why you’re so good at what you do.

THEM:  Sorry, go ahead.

ME:  I call it--So, in my mind, the Alyssa Milano effect

is what happens when somebody who--and maybe it’s

because they’re in the entertainment industry or the arts

or whatever--but they dabble a bit in activism, get some

attention for it, and then sort of--double down on that and it

becomes an entirely new identity for them, and it seems--

THEM:  Fake?

ME:  Disingenuous?

THEM:  Same thing.

ME:  (Laughs.)  But I feel bad.

THEM:  Why?

ME:  Well, because I think there’s an argument to be made

that you can never really know anybody’s true intent, and that,

even if the intent is bad, the work is still good, so who cares?

THEM:  Okay. Can I respond to that?

ME:  Please do.

THEM:  I’m very much on the side of--If you’re willing to stand

next to me on a picket line, I don’t really care why you’re doing it.

 I’ve always needed--and the causes I’ve worked for--have

always just needed boots on the ground. So as long as you’re

not out there making a fool out of yourself, you’re welcome.  

Now, as far as people getting attention through activism without

actually making a commitment to be there--physically--on the

picket line or collecting signatures or in other real ways--that I do

have a problem with, and I do think--that’s a lot of what we’re

seeing when we see these celebrities or other people just trying

to make activism an online identity for themselves without any

real action behind it.

ME:  Slacktivism.

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  We started talking about this, because certain people who...

do theater, maybe?

THEM:  (Laughs.)  Yes.

ME:  Seem to be...prone to what you’re talking about.

THEM:  Yes, and, you know, artists are very passionate people.

 And politics is--should be--in our blood. But we also--we’re

people.  We have a limited amount of time and energy, and this--

I’ve been doing this for a long time, and it’s hard work.  It’s a big

commitment. And the arts--doing theater, honing skills and

having a craft--that’s big a commitment as well.  You might also

be, uh, holding down a day job, raising kids--

ME:  Scrolling through photos online of pugs with hats on.

THEM:  We’re gonna leave that alone.

ME:  Okay.

THEM:  And there are things you can do to help out the people

on the front line if you, yourself, cannot get there, and social

media can be used for that.  So I’m not saying ‘Don’t post’--

please post. But it--and I think this is where your feeling comes

from as well--it does seem suspicious when, let’s say,

someone who used to be on television and isn’t anymore,

suddenly takes an interest in social activism.

ME:  And can the other side use that as a--

THEM:  You see them do it.  And it’s hard to counter it when

these people are on Twitter posting all the time but we can’t

find a photo of them protesting with us.

ME:  And, just to be clear, there probably are photos of

Alyssa Milano protesting.

THEM:  I’m sure there are.  She seems great.

ME:  I really love her--I should use another celebrity.

THEM:  We actually have a rule with one of the groups

I work for and that I co-founded with my partner--Talk

about the mission and how it works through you.  

Not about you and only you.

ME:  Can you expand on that?

THEM:  It’s about not going online and saying

‘This happened to me today while I was at the sit-in at

the Senator’s office.’  We want to talk about the sit-in

and the Senator and I don’t want to have to get through

all those ‘I’s before I get to the meat of what I’m looking for--

ME:  But doesn’t talking about your personal experiences

make this activism real for people?  Or more meaningful

to people who know--

THEM:  It does, and that’s why I’m saying, ‘Yes, talk

through you’ but keep going back to talking about the

mission.  Keep going back to talking about the cause.

Make that the focal point of every sentence, of everything

you’re saying, because it’s very easy to have it become

about your experience being there and not why you were

there, and, you know, truth be told, any person supporting

a cause can be made to look like they’re doing it for the

wrong reasons if you try hard enough, but you don’t want

to let the people on the opposing side use what you say to

discredit you and what you’re fighting for, and the best way

to do that is to keep projecting outwards.

ME:  Which is interesting, because that’s also a great rule

for acting.

THEM:  Isn’t it?  I think about that all the time.  

The minute what you’re doing becomes more about you

than about anybody else, you’re not connecting.  You’re

not engaging. And connecting and engaging are so

important.

ME:  What advice do you have for people in the arts

community in regards to doing the right things when

it comes to social justice?  Because you’ve been doing

this for so long--

THEM:  I’m not an expert.  Nobody is. I would say know

what you want the result of your anger to be.  I saw this

young woman going off on a guy on Twitter once, and

the guy was very apologetic, and kept saying ‘What

can I do to be better?’ and the woman was saying

‘It’s not my job to teach you.’

ME:  I’ve said that before.

THEM:  But teaching is--Okay. Let's start with--Why

are you yelling at a person and you don’t even know

what you’re yelling at them for?

ME:  Maybe it was something he--

THEM:  No, I know why she was yelling, but what is

the result she wants?  Theater right? What do you

want? What are you doing to get what you want?

You just want him to feel bad? Okay. But that only

gets us so far. That's a boring-ass play right there.

Now look, you are a teacher in this life whether you

want to be or not.  You are always teaching people

how to treat you and others. If you don’t want that job,

go crawl in a hole somewhere, because every

interaction you have is teacher/student.  That’s just

a fact. Nobody’s asking you to give this person a

Ted Talk. Just simply tell them what you expect

from them in the future. If the fool don’t want to

hear it, then that’s okay, you can walk.  But the

value in somebody saying ‘Help me do better?’

I would love to have that happen to me all the time.

ME:  I’ve heard people say it gets tiring to be in

that position.

THEM:  It does.  I’m not saying it doesn’t.

ME:  So you’re saying--

THEM:  I’m saying it’s all right to be angry, but be

angry for a reason.  Assign something to that anger.

Get used to saying ‘I’m angry and this is what I’m

angry about and I would like to see more of this’

otherwise you are just out here crying or screaming

and that’s valid but why not send it towards something

productive?  I tell the younger people I work with

now--Every time you go online and post about what’s

bugging you--you know, right now, obviously we’re

talking about how upset, rightfully so, people are over

the challenges to our reproductive rights--every time

you go online and you say something about that, tag

an organization that’s working to fix it.  Get those

names out there. Get those non-profit need-your-

donation names out there over and over again.

Because otherwise it does start to seem like noise,

and when you’re perceived as just making noise,

people will stop listening, and they’ll write you off.

ME:  I feel like I’m guilty of a lot of what you’re

talking about.

THEM:  Kevin, I’m guilty of it too!

ME:  (Laughs.)  No, you’re doing the work.

THEM:  But I also like to hear myself talk.  And so

do a lot of other people--but what are we talking

ABOUT?  What was that thing you wrote about insight?

ME:  Oh, how I want everything I take in--like read

or listen to now--to be insightful or informative.

THEM:  That’s great.  Now apply that to what you
put out there.

ME:  Oof.

THEM:  If you’re putting that on everybody else--

ME:  No, you’re right.

THEM:  When you go online, are you telling people

something they don’t know?  Are you giving them

a way to look at--I’m really using your own thing here--

ME:  (Laughs.)  I regret writing that now.

THEM:  No, it’s great!  It’s great! But listen, are you

giving somebody a new way of looking at something?

 Or are you just out here telling people what you ate

today and here’s a picture of me at the beach.

ME:  And some people like--no, you know what?  

Nobody cares about that stuff.

THEM:  I like it sometimes!  But think about it in the

political sphere.  You telling me ‘I like Senator Warren’--

which I do.

ME:  Okay.

THEM:  But that’s it?  Now some person’s going to

come along and fight with me and say why they

don’t like her.  But what if I started the conversation

by saying--Here’s WHY I like Senator Warren. Here’s

a link to some information about her.  Take a second

and read it. Give some information. Give that insight.

And people won’t be so apt to challenge. They’ll either

--they might engage, but--They’ll either meet you where

you’re at or they’ll walk away because THEY don’t

want to put in the work.

ME:  So I can’t just bait people into arguments on

Facebook anymore?

THEM:  Kevin, what is that getting you?

ME:  So many likes.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  Jesus, help this boy.

ME:  Likes, comments--clicks.  A lot of clicks.

THEM:  You’re a mess.

ME:  But I don’t want to be--forgive me--I’m not

interested in being Alyssa Milano.

THEM:  Okay, that’s a start.

ME:  It’s especially difficult during--Oh boy, should

I even get into this?

THEM:  Get into it.  Come on.

ME:  It’s difficult during Pride month, because I do

feel that some people--okay, so there’s the theater

community and then there’s the gay community--

and I feel like some people in the gay community

get very...performative with their outrage.

THEM:  Ohhhh you’re going to get it for that.

ME:  Right?  I mean, none of them read my stuff,

so I think I’m fine but--

THEM:  Is that true?  None of them--

ME:  There’s a whole other interview we did about

gays supporting gay content in the arts, so I’ll link to

that if I can be bothered to, which I probably won’t be--

THEM:  But you need to be a force for--You need to

take a step forward, not go back.  I think it’s good if

you see yourself speaking out--I’ve always known

you to speak out--but in terms of more politically--

that’s good.  That’s great and that’s who you are.

You see someone else in your community--I have

to do this in my community as well--people who are

using the tools we have to advocate to self-promote?  

You invite them to go with you to a protest. You

invite them to go do some canvassing with you.

You put them on the spot. But when you do that,

you put yourself on the spot as well.

ME:  Yeah, that’s the thing, because I’m full of shit

as well.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  We gotta wrap this up, I have

things to do today.

ME:  Thank you for this.  My last interview was

really just a lot of screaming, so I’m glad that didn’t

happen again even though this won't get as many

likes.

THEM:  You want to end this with a prayer?

ME:  I’m an atheist, but sure.

THEM:  Honey, I’ll pray with anyone for anything.  

We’re all looking for something.

ME:  Amen.  Can we pray to stop me from fighting

with people?

THEM:  (Laughs.)  I don’t know.  Some things even

the Lord can’t fix.

Them has worked with several organizations over

the years and prayed with Kevin at the end of this

interview even though he’s a mess.