My conversation today is unique in that it's with someone I had never spoken to until the time came to do this interview. If you read last week's conversation, you know that this person was referred to me. They are a theater artist with a long career and impressive resume who has since decided to leave their respective theater community.
Here's the interview:
ME: I feel so liberated talking to you already because you're from so far away.
THEM: Canada's not that far away.
ME: You're my first international conversation.
THEM: I feel like I have to represent all of my country right now.
ME: You do. You really do.
THEM: I've been preparing for this my whole life.
ME: You were--I don't know if the word should be 'referred,' but someone said--You need to talk to so-and-so, and here we are.
THEM: Here we are.
ME: Now, your story is one I think we've heard a lot, but what was interesting to me in the conversation we had e-mailing back and forth was that I don't know if a lot has been said of the type of person you dealt with--this sort of--um, so not something criminal, but something--I should let you tell it.
THEM: Yeah, um, so--should I just start from the top?
ME: Yeah, wherever you'd like to.
THEM: I've been an actor since I was twelve-years-old. I'll try to shorten this, but--Um, I started acting professionally when I was fifteen. I work in a pretty vibrant city for the arts, and, um, got cast in a play when I was in high school--and worked pretty consistently while in college--almost didn't go to college because of that--because of the work--and from the age of seventeen to just two years ago--I'm thirty-one now--I worked in and around, um, a person who I would consider to be--we used to call him--I'm not joking--we used to call him the Big Bad Wolf. And anybody who is reading this from this area--do you have a lot of Canadian readers?
ME: We don't have a lot of readers period, so--
THEM: (Laughs.) Um, he did not have his own company. That was the first--I think, in some ways, that would make him different than a lot of these stories I'm hearing now, but um--He was very respected in the community. He was a--Um...
ME: So he was freelance?
THEM: Yeah, thank you, he worked as a freelance director and actor, mainly a director, but he was very influential in our community. He was on the board of--I think, three different theaters--
ME: Wow.
THEM: Yeah, yeah. And he was always in the audition room, which, um--like for general auditions, that kind of thing--I don't know if that's common where you are--
ME: To have someone--
THEM: Someone who isn't--like, usually, in our, um, where I work--it's just the Artistic Director and maybe, um, an associate? At the general auditions or the open calls, and, um, then you'll see the director at a callback, but the exception--he was always the exception. He always--and I found out later--after--I found out from friends and people that he always demanded that as a condition of working with you--with a theater. That he wanted to be there at all the auditions and have a say in that.
ME: In how his shows were cast or--
THEM: That's what--that's what was said, but--I found out later that he was also influencing how other shows were cast as well.
ME: Okay.
THEM: That's jumping a little. Um--my first time working with him was, like I said, seventeen. I was seventeen. Very young, obviously. And, um, that experience was fine. No problems there. Nothing bad to report. Didn't see anything that was a problem. Had a good time. Um, my first--but I had heard things. Even when I was younger. You hear things. I had heard things. About him.
ME: What kind of things?
THEM: That he was, uh--that he had a temper. That you--you know, he can be this or that. If that happens. People warned me.
ME: At seventeen they were warning you?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Who was warning you?
THEM: Other actors who had worked with him.
ME: And how--what was their take on it? That--the behavior they were describing?
THEM: Most of them laughed it off. They thought it was funny. So that was my first, um, instruction in how to take it.
ME: To laugh it off.
THEM: To laugh it off, yeah.
ME: How old was this guy compared to you?
THEM: He was--when I was seventeen, he was in his forties.
ME: And so he had been doing theater in that area--
THEM: Yeah, he was very well-established by the time I started--he had--I remember, he had just won an award--this big award that we give out to, um, people who have really made a mark in the community--so that was my first impression of him--that he had won this big award and that people told me, 'He might call you a f___-ing idiot, so be ready for that.'
ME: They said that?
THEM: Yes.
ME: 'He might call you a f___-ing idiot?'
THEM: With a laugh. That's how they said it.
ME: Did it make you not want to work with him?
THEM: Um--yes and no. Because--if you worked with him--if he chose you to work with him--that's how it felt--um--it was considered a big deal. You had really--you were treated very differently from that point on.
ME: Really?
THEM: Yes. We all had heard the same stories, but--you want that work that gets you noticed and that overpowers any--any reluctance you might have.
ME: And so when did you first work with him?
THEM: I had my first read-through with him for my first project with him the day of my eighteenth birthday.
ME: Oh wow.
THEM: And that show--there was only one time where we had an issue. Well--where he had an issue with me or however you want to say it.
ME: What happened?
THEM: Um--I was playing the daughter of the lead character. I had about six lines. Still excited. Getting paid. Feeling really good. No issues up until tech. Going into tech week I'm thinking--um--maybe what I heard--that warning--and things I'd heard since then--are just gossip. Or maybe people are being too sensitive. Or maybe I'm just--this is bad, that I thought this, but--maybe I'm just so good that he doesn't need to get mad at me or treat me bad, because I know what I'm doing.
ME: Had he had any issues with anyone else on that particular project?
THEM: Yes. He threw a chair at the lead actor. The man playing my dad.
ME: He threw a chair at him?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Why?
THEM: If I remember this correctly--and I'm saying that because I walked into the rehearsal and it had just happened--I had a later call that night--the actor--it was the first off-book day and the actor was really struggling with the lines, and this--the guy--
ME: Do you want to call him the Wolf?
THEM: (Laughs.) Sure.
ME: I'm writing a play now where the villain is called the Wolf, so that'll be easy for me to--
THEM: That's perfect then. The Wolf.
ME: So the actor can't remember his lines and the Wolf--
THEM: The Wolf gets mad and throws a chair at him.
ME: And what did the actor do?
THEM: He apologized.
ME: HE apologized?
THEM: The stage manager called a break--
ME: Was this happening at an equity theater?
THEM: It's--well, in Canada--
ME: Are you allowed to throw chairs in equity theaters in Canada?
THEM: (Laughs.) You are not.
ME: So what did the stage manager say?
THEM: They were--this was a stage manager who almost exclusively worked with this--with the Wolf--and, uh, I believe they even dated briefly. Do what you will with that.
ME: Uh huh.
THEM: But we--we took a break. The--the Wolf disappeared somewhere. The actor--he was--he was pretty shaken up--and when we came back to rehearse--the actor apologized for not knowing his lines, he was having a hard week I guess, um, nobody apologized about the chair, and we went on.
ME: Did you ever hear this person apologize for their actions?
THEM: Not ever.
ME: Did people apologize for him?
THEM: Um--yes. Not a lot, but yes. On his behalf.
ME: So he throws the chair--
THEM: Damaged the set by the way.
ME: Whoa.
THEM: Because--he wasn't trying to hit the actor--he was just trying to scare the s___ out of everybody, so he threw it away from the actor, but at the set--or it landed--it damaged the set. They had already--it was only about three weeks in, but they had put up this wall already--we were rehearsing in the space at that point, because they were doing some sort of class in the--in the rehearsal studio--and this wall was up, and maybe he thought it was a cement wall, I don't know, but it wasn't, and the chair went--It left a hole. There was a hole there.
ME: And nobody said anything?
THEM: Not that I know of. Not that the set is that important when you're talking about possibly injuring people, but--
ME: But, no, I can see a set designer being like--What the f___?
THEM: Maybe they did, but--there was a lot of leniency where he was concerned. From everyone.
ME: So what happened with you and him during tech week?
THEM: I...
ME: By the way, if you don't want to talk about anything that--
THEM: It's okay, I just really want to remember this correctly. Um. I couldn't get the timing right on an exit. There was--there was this sequence of events that was supposed to take place, and it was one of those--if one person is a second late, it won't time out right. So we had to practice it. We had practiced it in rehearsal, but you know, once you're doing it with lights and everything else--and the spacing was slightly different--it times out differently. We had to practice it. Tech is--it's stressful. We're using up time on this thing that we didn't know we would be using so much time on. I was the last part of the--of the sequence, um--my exit was the, you know, the button on the sequence. I couldn't get it. I was always, um, a second off. Just a second, but I couldn't close that gap. We try it. We try it again. I can see he's getting mad. It takes five minutes to complete the sequence every time we do it. People are suggesting things. He's getting angrier. He tells them to shut up. Everybody gets very tense. He comes down onstage, and--um, slowly, he doesn't storm the stage--he comes down onstage and he gets right in my face--inches from it--and says, 'If you don't get this f____ing exit right, I'm going to throw you out of the f____ing theater.'
ME: And you were eighteen.
THEM: Yes.
ME: Did anyone else hear him?
THEM: The other actors onstage did.
ME: Did anyone say anything?
THEM: No.
ME: What happened next?
THEM: We did it again. I got the exit--just barely. And then another actor trips over a piece of--like, a carpet or something--and we have to stop and go back.
ME: Oh no.
THEM: And he--he went ballistic. Called us all f___ing morons. F____ing fools. Said he was wasting his time and his talent on us. That our show was going to suck. That we all sucked. He went on and on.
ME: For how long?
THEM: Felt like hours. Probably five minutes.
ME: Five minutes is still--
THEM: It's an eternity.
ME: And after that?
THEM: He cancelled the rest of the rehearsal and went home. We all went home. I cried. I just got in my car and cried. About the whole thing. I didn't know what to do.
ME: Did you think about quitting?
THEM: No. Never.
ME: Why not?
THEM: People have bad bosses. That was what my mother told me when I told her about it the next day.
ME: She equated it to just--
THEM: Having a bad boss. That it's normal. Gotta just suck it up. So I did.
ME: Was that the last time he had a meltdown?
THEM: On that show, yes. He came back the next day. We ran what we did the night before. I got the exit again--and, again, just barely--I never got it with time to spare. It always gave me anxiety thinking about missing it. For the whole run. Then we kept going. The show opened. Big success. And, um, all was forgiven.
ME: You forgave him for how he spoke to you?
THEM: At the time, yes. Because nobody else seemed to--nobody seemed to think how he acted was a big deal.
ME: Was there anyone in the--in the overall community who did?
THEM: Yes, and they didn't work.
ME: With him or in general?
THEM: They didn't work anywhere good, um, and I'm sorry to put it that way, but--there was a line--in our community--desirable places to work and non-desirable--
ME: Why non-desirable?
THEM: Oh, they didn't pay. They didn't choose interesting shows. The talent wasn't at the same--this isn't me saying this, this is what the general feeling was about where he worked and had control and everywhere else, and what I think now is--that he might have had a hand in that.
ME: In creating that perception?
THEM: Yes.
ME: How?
THEM: He would--steer certain people, his favorites--
ME: He had favorites?
THEM: They always have favorites, right?
ME: Always.
THEM: He would steer his favorites towards certain theaters, and have them--spread information--about other places--and really create this divide. He was very divisive, but he also wanted to be everybody's friend. He wanted everybody to like him. And I think, the best way--the easiest way for him to do that--and still behave the way that he did--was to, um, make everybody hate each other and only like him. I don't know a better way to say it.
ME: How many other shows did you do with him before you stopped?
THEM: Oh god, at least--probably twenty-five. Maybe even thirty.
ME: So a lot.
THEM: I was a favorite.
ME: You were?
THEM: Oh yes.
ME: How did that happen?
THEM: I never talked back. I never--I never challenged him. I--I let him see me fall apart. I gave him what he wanted, which was--which was that. To see me lose it and just--and always make it my fault. It was--you know, like I said, he was smart. He wouldn't lay a hand on you. He never had anybody--still to this day--never had anybody accuse him of anything like assault or sexual assault--which is how, I think, to this day, even with #MeToo, nobody's called him out. Because compared to something as serious as that, his behavior just seems bad. Just bad behavior--but not something that merits the kind of response you would want to see from someone who is a rapist or a--a--a--yeah.
ME: But it is serious.
THEM: It is--and, you know, I think about it, and, um--yeah, it is.
ME: But you struggle with voicing this?
THEM: I do. I still do. Because I was told not to for so long. I was told it would be a bad idea. That it would--that I would be done.
ME: What were some--can you talk about other instances of--
THEM: Oh, he called me every name in the book. Put me down in every way you can imagine. We were doing tablework at my house once--my apartment--and he called me a pig. Right in my own home.
ME: Why?
THEM: He found out I was dating my co-star in this play, and he sort of grunted and said, um, 'You're such a pig.'
ME: Jesus.
THEM: He hated when actors dated other actors. Hated it.
ME: Why do you think that is?
THEM: No idea. Maybe because none of us wanted to date him. But I don't know that for sure.
ME: What else?
THEM: He threw me out of rehearsal several times.
ME: For what reason?
THEM: Everything from me paraphrasing a line to dropping a prop I was supposed to be holding. The prop didn't break.
ME: Who cares if it did?
THEM: I know. He threw things at me over the years a few times. That was his MO, I guess. Um. It was--people talked about it like a badge of honor. That he would throw something at you. Oh, you're in the club now.
ME: Is that how people talked about it?
THEM: Yes.
ME: And he got in your face?
THEM: That one time and--he loved to do this thing--where--he would go from yelling to whispering. He'd be yelling and yelling and then he'd stop and you'd think--Oh thank god, he's done--and then he'd come up to you, right up to you, and whisper the most hurtful thing. That was usually when he was done.
ME: What kinds of things if you can--
THEM: Well, after my mother died, and I was at this rehearsal--this was a week later--a week later--um--he started out being nice. But I could tell that he didn't like that the rehearsal, sadly, was going to have to be about me to some extent--to, uh, dealing with me and what I was going through--
ME: What do you mean by that?
THEM: He liked to direct in a very insensitive, non-pc, aggressive sort of way and if you couldn't handle that, he didn't want to work with you, and usually that was okay with me, but this time, it couldn't be, because I was, you know, grieving, and so he was trying to, um, be more attuned to that, and I was doing okay, and then I couldn't say this one word correctly--I just had trouble with it--this one--it was French--my character was saying this French word. And he said 'Did you look it up?' And you didn't lie to him, um, you just didn't. That was a death sentence. But I had looked it up. The word. I just couldn't say it. It was one of those things. I said 'I did look it up.' And he said 'No, you didn't.' And I said, 'Yes, I f___ing did.'
ME: You challenged him.
THEM: Yes.
ME: And what happened?
THEM: We finished rehearsal. We just--I guess we skipped that scene. And that night I got an e-mail telling me I was out of the show.
ME: You're kidding.
THEM: Nope.
ME: Who was the e-mail from?
THEM: The General Manager.
ME: Not even him?
THEM: No. I mean, he wouldn't--it was done the way it was supposed to be done.
ME: Aside from the fact that you shouldn't have been--
THEM: Yes.
ME: What did the e-mail say?
THEM: That due to my behavior as a result of the loss of my mother, the theater believed it would be best if I left the production.
ME: Is that--I'm not disputing what you're saying at all, but did you yourself think maybe they were telling the truth about that?
THEM: Uh--it might have been a bad idea to keep me in the show, but I think that should have been a conversation and not an e-mail.
ME: Yes. Agreed.
THEM: I knew all my lines. I knew all my blocking. I wasn't sobbing onstage in the middle of a--I wasn't holding anybody up. I couldn't say a word correctly and then I swore at the director when he said I didn't do my homework and I always did my homework so write me up, but then write him up for telling the all the women in the cast that they looked fat in their costumes.
ME: He did that?
THEM: On the same show, yes.
ME: And you got removed from the--
THEM: Yes.
ME: Was that the one that made you decide to take a break?
THEM: Believe it or not, no. It was--you know, after everything, it was the smallest thing.
ME: It usually is.
THEM: We did a show together. Small show. Five people. I was the lead. Everything was great. And then...The night we opened, um, he took me aside, and told me I was doing this one scene differently than how he wanted it--and I wasn't. He was--he was playing a game with me.
ME: Did he do that often?
THEM: Yes. He hated actors being complacent--which is fine, but his way of dealing with it--even before it happened--was with mind games. You can't be complacent if you're being gaslit, right? If you're never sure you're doing well or what the director wants or anything, right? He tells me 'You're not doing it the way you've been directed to do it, and I've been biting my tongue--' which is funny because him biting his tongue is, um, yeah, and he says--'I've been biting my tongue all through previews, but you've gone rogue.' And I laughed. I laughed right in his face.
ME: Oh f___.
THEM: Yup. I couldn't help it. Almost fifteen years of this bulls___ and I just had to laugh. It was so ridiculous. E-mailing me notes all day long and late at night. Calling me. These long lectures he would give about how he would do the part if he were me. Endless, endless speeches. All condescending. All insulting. Nothing helpful, really. Just--and cruel. Often cruel. And here he is on opening night--five before places--telling me I've been subverting him. Sabotaging this one scene. And he's been holding back from, um, telling me. And I laughed.
ME: What did he do?
THEM: I just kept laughing and he looked at me like I was nuts and then they called places and I went on and did the show and everything went great, and from that point on, whenever he tried to talk to me, I would just--I would tell him to get the f___ away from me. That we were done.
ME: And he--sorry, but--he allowed that? This guy who got you fired before?
THEM: Well, this was different. Even when he got me fired, I was still underfoot. You know, when he fired me, I still sent him an apology e-mail.
ME: Oh no.
THEM: Yeah. Not proud of that, but. Yeah. This time I was done. And he knew it. I was out. Um, which meant dealing with me in a different way.
ME: What did he do?
THEM: Started this, um, little quiet campaign against me. Emailing people. Telling them about how erratic I was being. How I was messing up the show. Telling them--I got great reviews by the way. The show was great. But he was still saying I was doing a horrible job. Um, how I've always been bad to work with. Always negative. Toxic. Saying I talk badly about people. That I'm abusive. Unpredictable.
ME: Projection?
THEM: (Laughs.) I guess.
ME: And people bought it?
THEM: It doesn't matter if they did. I don't even know why he felt he had to work so hard at it. It was coming from him. He could have just said 'We're not casting her anymore' and that would have been it. Nobody would have gone against him.
ME: So you took yourself out instead?
THEM: And it was--I was very upset, but it was also a relief, because I couldn't operate in a community with him and with people supporting him.
ME: I want to talk about that--the enabling--
THEM: Yes. But I also did it. I enabled.
ME: And you felt like you didn't have a choice.
THEM: Look, and this is, um--I would love to think that there's a choice and then there's change. But usually the change has to happen first. You--when it's a whole group of people like that--working in the same place--it needs to be a big change. We had people who wanted the change. But not enough. I was just trying to keep my head above water.
ME: Were there places that refused to work with him?
THEM: Yes, and they were--like I said--considered not even worth paying attention to.
ME: Is he still there? Working there?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Do you hope he reads this?
THEM: I would love that.
ME: Give me his email address.
THEM: (Laughs.) One thing that happened--I was telling someone about this--and they said, 'Well, I need to hear his side of the story.' He denies none of what I'm saying. Nobody does. It's people saying, 'Yes, this is what's going on, but there's nothing wrong with it. Toughen up.'
ME: Like what your mom said.
THEM: Yes, although she feels differently now.
ME: I would hope so.
THEM: (Laughs.) She's dead, but I feel that she would agree with me. That's why--I think I'm relieved. To--to say 'Well, he's denying it' I could see--I could, I guess, work within that fight. There'd be a fight there. But there's no fight. They're saying, 'Yeah, he did it, but look what great work he does. I want to be doing that work too. So I'll put up with it. And if you don't want to put up with it, then there's the door.'
ME: The system that's in place right now to protect people like you from people like that--
THEM: It doesn't work. Because we're really left to our own devices in these communities. We're given a set of rules, but it's up to us, really, if we follow those rules or not. There's no overarching committee that says, 'You're letting this guy get away with murder.'
ME: Someone could have gone to equity.
THEM: Not anonymously. And for good reason, I get that, but...it's a flawed system when it's all about your name. Your good name. And the first thing that happens is--you give that up. That gets ruined. You're damaged.
ME: I think I need to say at this point that I've said some pretty awful things to people in the context of running my theater.
THEM: Stuff on this level?
ME: Um--I've blown up. I've definitely blown up at people in ways that were--uncalled for.
THEM: Why did you do that?
ME: Because I felt I was entitled to, because they weren't appreciating how hard my life was trying to undertake this big thing.
THEM: Did you apologize afterwards?
ME: Sometimes I did. Not all the time.
THEM: Why not all the time?
ME: Because I had seen other people do it, and get away with it, and not apologize.
THEM: Do you think you should apologize?
ME: Now, yes.
THEM: And what about people you work with?
ME: Like, have I ever enlisted the work of any, uh, wolves?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Yes.
THEM: Even after you saw their behavior?
ME: Yes. Not--well, yes.
THEM: Why?
ME: Because I wasn't going to be the only one--I wasn't going to go out on that limb and get into it with someone the rest of the community was standing by.
THEM: Could it also be because you knew about your own behavior and didn't want that coming out?
ME: Sure. Yes. That too.
THEM: Why do you think communities stand by people like that?
ME: I think--for me--it's longevity. If you can just--survive--and keep doing work--long enough--in a particular area--people will forget. They always do. They forget. And so--and then you develop this reputation of--this person who has been around forever, and don't challenge them, they're this important person in the community. Don't destroy that. They're our history. And so--you don't. You don't want to be the person who destroys history. And--in my case--maybe you're just not that brave.
THEM: I think--and this is something I've been dealing with too--the audience holds some responsibility.
ME: You think they know about all this stuff that happens behind--
THEM: We don't give them enough credit. I think--I know, at least in my case--that they knew about some of this. Of this behavior.
ME: And they didn't care.
THEM: Food's good, who cares what happens in the kitchen.
ME: That's gross.
THEM: It is. I care about what happens in the kitchen. I think we need to hold the--the enablers accountable first. I think that's where so many of us are going, um, wrong, I guess. We're aiming ourselves at the people committing the behavior, and we need to be looking at the people propping them up. Without that support, they fall, and I think--based on conversations I've had with other people in other places that have had success getting rid of these people--that's how you do it.
ME: Take out the enablers.
THEM: Yes.
ME: And what does that look like?
THEM: Just disregard the--I say the abuser. Disregard them. Say 'This Artistic Director supports this kind of behavior.' 'This actor supports this kind of behavior.'
ME: That must get you in so much trouble.
THEM: Oh it does. I only started doing it after I decided I was never going to work anymore anyway.
ME: Yeah, it's a very scorch the earth approach.
THEM: And that doesn't even work--not all the time. But it works more than, um, than getting into it with someone who's just going to hide behind their, like you were saying, their legacy.
ME: Is there--like you just said to me--were you scared of your own actions coming into play. Were you scared of calling out enablers having been an enabler?
THEM: Yes, so I owned it. I owned it from the get-go. But it doesn't mean anything after you've--after the person has already started black-balling you. It's more effective if you're still on good terms with them.
ME: You blindside them.
THEM: Um, basically, yes.
ME: This all requires a lot of--
THEM: Bravery, yeah.
ME: Which is everybody's favorite word to use about artists. That we're brave.
THEM: And a lot of us aren't. Not when it counts.
ME: I'm not, that's for sure.
THEM: Do you know anybody who is?
ME: Oh, I do. Yes.
THEM: Do they work?
ME: Not at the level they should.
THEM: Do you ever wonder why?
ME: No, I know why.
THEM: Have you ever kept someone out of your theater because they would call you out on your bulls___?
ME: Yes.
THEM: Um, so something I'd like to ask then--
ME: Yes?
THEM: Can you stop doing that?
ME: Yes.
THEM: Can you promise me you'll stop doing that?
ME: Yes.
THEM: Can you also promise you won't work with people like the one we're talking about?
ME: I don't know if I can promise that.
THEM: As I was asking you that, I was thinking it was unfair of me to ask.
ME: It's not unfair, but--like, if Christian Bale asked me to do a movie with him tomorrow, I'm not going to say 'No.' And that's--
THEM: Christian Bale?
ME: Remember when he yelled at the guy on the set of--
THEM: I forgot all about that.
ME: I never did. That always bothered me.
THEM: But you'd work with him?
ME: I would. I wouldn't feel good about it, but I would.
THEM: Thank you for being honest about that.
ME: Please don't thank me for being chickens____.
THEM: (Laughs.) Will you--this is what I say now--will you work towards being better for yourself and others?
ME: I--I can work towards that, yes.
THEM: That's all I really want to ask.
ME: Thank you for doing this.
THEM: And if you need any actors at your theater--
ME: I have a couch. I have roles. I have everything.
THEM: Just don't throw any chairs at me.
ME: I can honestly say I've never thrown a chair.
THEM: Well, that's a good place to start.
Them is currently taking a break from acting, but hopes that one day that will change.
Here's the interview:
ME: I feel so liberated talking to you already because you're from so far away.
THEM: Canada's not that far away.
ME: You're my first international conversation.
THEM: I feel like I have to represent all of my country right now.
ME: You do. You really do.
THEM: I've been preparing for this my whole life.
ME: You were--I don't know if the word should be 'referred,' but someone said--You need to talk to so-and-so, and here we are.
THEM: Here we are.
ME: Now, your story is one I think we've heard a lot, but what was interesting to me in the conversation we had e-mailing back and forth was that I don't know if a lot has been said of the type of person you dealt with--this sort of--um, so not something criminal, but something--I should let you tell it.
THEM: Yeah, um, so--should I just start from the top?
ME: Yeah, wherever you'd like to.
THEM: I've been an actor since I was twelve-years-old. I'll try to shorten this, but--Um, I started acting professionally when I was fifteen. I work in a pretty vibrant city for the arts, and, um, got cast in a play when I was in high school--and worked pretty consistently while in college--almost didn't go to college because of that--because of the work--and from the age of seventeen to just two years ago--I'm thirty-one now--I worked in and around, um, a person who I would consider to be--we used to call him--I'm not joking--we used to call him the Big Bad Wolf. And anybody who is reading this from this area--do you have a lot of Canadian readers?
ME: We don't have a lot of readers period, so--
THEM: (Laughs.) Um, he did not have his own company. That was the first--I think, in some ways, that would make him different than a lot of these stories I'm hearing now, but um--He was very respected in the community. He was a--Um...
ME: So he was freelance?
THEM: Yeah, thank you, he worked as a freelance director and actor, mainly a director, but he was very influential in our community. He was on the board of--I think, three different theaters--
ME: Wow.
THEM: Yeah, yeah. And he was always in the audition room, which, um--like for general auditions, that kind of thing--I don't know if that's common where you are--
ME: To have someone--
THEM: Someone who isn't--like, usually, in our, um, where I work--it's just the Artistic Director and maybe, um, an associate? At the general auditions or the open calls, and, um, then you'll see the director at a callback, but the exception--he was always the exception. He always--and I found out later--after--I found out from friends and people that he always demanded that as a condition of working with you--with a theater. That he wanted to be there at all the auditions and have a say in that.
ME: In how his shows were cast or--
THEM: That's what--that's what was said, but--I found out later that he was also influencing how other shows were cast as well.
ME: Okay.
THEM: That's jumping a little. Um--my first time working with him was, like I said, seventeen. I was seventeen. Very young, obviously. And, um, that experience was fine. No problems there. Nothing bad to report. Didn't see anything that was a problem. Had a good time. Um, my first--but I had heard things. Even when I was younger. You hear things. I had heard things. About him.
ME: What kind of things?
THEM: That he was, uh--that he had a temper. That you--you know, he can be this or that. If that happens. People warned me.
ME: At seventeen they were warning you?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Who was warning you?
THEM: Other actors who had worked with him.
ME: And how--what was their take on it? That--the behavior they were describing?
THEM: Most of them laughed it off. They thought it was funny. So that was my first, um, instruction in how to take it.
ME: To laugh it off.
THEM: To laugh it off, yeah.
ME: How old was this guy compared to you?
THEM: He was--when I was seventeen, he was in his forties.
ME: And so he had been doing theater in that area--
THEM: Yeah, he was very well-established by the time I started--he had--I remember, he had just won an award--this big award that we give out to, um, people who have really made a mark in the community--so that was my first impression of him--that he had won this big award and that people told me, 'He might call you a f___-ing idiot, so be ready for that.'
ME: They said that?
THEM: Yes.
ME: 'He might call you a f___-ing idiot?'
THEM: With a laugh. That's how they said it.
ME: Did it make you not want to work with him?
THEM: Um--yes and no. Because--if you worked with him--if he chose you to work with him--that's how it felt--um--it was considered a big deal. You had really--you were treated very differently from that point on.
ME: Really?
THEM: Yes. We all had heard the same stories, but--you want that work that gets you noticed and that overpowers any--any reluctance you might have.
ME: And so when did you first work with him?
THEM: I had my first read-through with him for my first project with him the day of my eighteenth birthday.
ME: Oh wow.
THEM: And that show--there was only one time where we had an issue. Well--where he had an issue with me or however you want to say it.
ME: What happened?
THEM: Um--I was playing the daughter of the lead character. I had about six lines. Still excited. Getting paid. Feeling really good. No issues up until tech. Going into tech week I'm thinking--um--maybe what I heard--that warning--and things I'd heard since then--are just gossip. Or maybe people are being too sensitive. Or maybe I'm just--this is bad, that I thought this, but--maybe I'm just so good that he doesn't need to get mad at me or treat me bad, because I know what I'm doing.
ME: Had he had any issues with anyone else on that particular project?
THEM: Yes. He threw a chair at the lead actor. The man playing my dad.
ME: He threw a chair at him?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Why?
THEM: If I remember this correctly--and I'm saying that because I walked into the rehearsal and it had just happened--I had a later call that night--the actor--it was the first off-book day and the actor was really struggling with the lines, and this--the guy--
ME: Do you want to call him the Wolf?
THEM: (Laughs.) Sure.
ME: I'm writing a play now where the villain is called the Wolf, so that'll be easy for me to--
THEM: That's perfect then. The Wolf.
ME: So the actor can't remember his lines and the Wolf--
THEM: The Wolf gets mad and throws a chair at him.
ME: And what did the actor do?
THEM: He apologized.
ME: HE apologized?
THEM: The stage manager called a break--
ME: Was this happening at an equity theater?
THEM: It's--well, in Canada--
ME: Are you allowed to throw chairs in equity theaters in Canada?
THEM: (Laughs.) You are not.
ME: So what did the stage manager say?
THEM: They were--this was a stage manager who almost exclusively worked with this--with the Wolf--and, uh, I believe they even dated briefly. Do what you will with that.
ME: Uh huh.
THEM: But we--we took a break. The--the Wolf disappeared somewhere. The actor--he was--he was pretty shaken up--and when we came back to rehearse--the actor apologized for not knowing his lines, he was having a hard week I guess, um, nobody apologized about the chair, and we went on.
ME: Did you ever hear this person apologize for their actions?
THEM: Not ever.
ME: Did people apologize for him?
THEM: Um--yes. Not a lot, but yes. On his behalf.
ME: So he throws the chair--
THEM: Damaged the set by the way.
ME: Whoa.
THEM: Because--he wasn't trying to hit the actor--he was just trying to scare the s___ out of everybody, so he threw it away from the actor, but at the set--or it landed--it damaged the set. They had already--it was only about three weeks in, but they had put up this wall already--we were rehearsing in the space at that point, because they were doing some sort of class in the--in the rehearsal studio--and this wall was up, and maybe he thought it was a cement wall, I don't know, but it wasn't, and the chair went--It left a hole. There was a hole there.
ME: And nobody said anything?
THEM: Not that I know of. Not that the set is that important when you're talking about possibly injuring people, but--
ME: But, no, I can see a set designer being like--What the f___?
THEM: Maybe they did, but--there was a lot of leniency where he was concerned. From everyone.
ME: So what happened with you and him during tech week?
THEM: I...
ME: By the way, if you don't want to talk about anything that--
THEM: It's okay, I just really want to remember this correctly. Um. I couldn't get the timing right on an exit. There was--there was this sequence of events that was supposed to take place, and it was one of those--if one person is a second late, it won't time out right. So we had to practice it. We had practiced it in rehearsal, but you know, once you're doing it with lights and everything else--and the spacing was slightly different--it times out differently. We had to practice it. Tech is--it's stressful. We're using up time on this thing that we didn't know we would be using so much time on. I was the last part of the--of the sequence, um--my exit was the, you know, the button on the sequence. I couldn't get it. I was always, um, a second off. Just a second, but I couldn't close that gap. We try it. We try it again. I can see he's getting mad. It takes five minutes to complete the sequence every time we do it. People are suggesting things. He's getting angrier. He tells them to shut up. Everybody gets very tense. He comes down onstage, and--um, slowly, he doesn't storm the stage--he comes down onstage and he gets right in my face--inches from it--and says, 'If you don't get this f____ing exit right, I'm going to throw you out of the f____ing theater.'
ME: And you were eighteen.
THEM: Yes.
ME: Did anyone else hear him?
THEM: The other actors onstage did.
ME: Did anyone say anything?
THEM: No.
ME: What happened next?
THEM: We did it again. I got the exit--just barely. And then another actor trips over a piece of--like, a carpet or something--and we have to stop and go back.
ME: Oh no.
THEM: And he--he went ballistic. Called us all f___ing morons. F____ing fools. Said he was wasting his time and his talent on us. That our show was going to suck. That we all sucked. He went on and on.
ME: For how long?
THEM: Felt like hours. Probably five minutes.
ME: Five minutes is still--
THEM: It's an eternity.
ME: And after that?
THEM: He cancelled the rest of the rehearsal and went home. We all went home. I cried. I just got in my car and cried. About the whole thing. I didn't know what to do.
ME: Did you think about quitting?
THEM: No. Never.
ME: Why not?
THEM: People have bad bosses. That was what my mother told me when I told her about it the next day.
ME: She equated it to just--
THEM: Having a bad boss. That it's normal. Gotta just suck it up. So I did.
ME: Was that the last time he had a meltdown?
THEM: On that show, yes. He came back the next day. We ran what we did the night before. I got the exit again--and, again, just barely--I never got it with time to spare. It always gave me anxiety thinking about missing it. For the whole run. Then we kept going. The show opened. Big success. And, um, all was forgiven.
ME: You forgave him for how he spoke to you?
THEM: At the time, yes. Because nobody else seemed to--nobody seemed to think how he acted was a big deal.
ME: Was there anyone in the--in the overall community who did?
THEM: Yes, and they didn't work.
ME: With him or in general?
THEM: They didn't work anywhere good, um, and I'm sorry to put it that way, but--there was a line--in our community--desirable places to work and non-desirable--
ME: Why non-desirable?
THEM: Oh, they didn't pay. They didn't choose interesting shows. The talent wasn't at the same--this isn't me saying this, this is what the general feeling was about where he worked and had control and everywhere else, and what I think now is--that he might have had a hand in that.
ME: In creating that perception?
THEM: Yes.
ME: How?
THEM: He would--steer certain people, his favorites--
ME: He had favorites?
THEM: They always have favorites, right?
ME: Always.
THEM: He would steer his favorites towards certain theaters, and have them--spread information--about other places--and really create this divide. He was very divisive, but he also wanted to be everybody's friend. He wanted everybody to like him. And I think, the best way--the easiest way for him to do that--and still behave the way that he did--was to, um, make everybody hate each other and only like him. I don't know a better way to say it.
ME: How many other shows did you do with him before you stopped?
THEM: Oh god, at least--probably twenty-five. Maybe even thirty.
ME: So a lot.
THEM: I was a favorite.
ME: You were?
THEM: Oh yes.
ME: How did that happen?
THEM: I never talked back. I never--I never challenged him. I--I let him see me fall apart. I gave him what he wanted, which was--which was that. To see me lose it and just--and always make it my fault. It was--you know, like I said, he was smart. He wouldn't lay a hand on you. He never had anybody--still to this day--never had anybody accuse him of anything like assault or sexual assault--which is how, I think, to this day, even with #MeToo, nobody's called him out. Because compared to something as serious as that, his behavior just seems bad. Just bad behavior--but not something that merits the kind of response you would want to see from someone who is a rapist or a--a--a--yeah.
ME: But it is serious.
THEM: It is--and, you know, I think about it, and, um--yeah, it is.
ME: But you struggle with voicing this?
THEM: I do. I still do. Because I was told not to for so long. I was told it would be a bad idea. That it would--that I would be done.
ME: What were some--can you talk about other instances of--
THEM: Oh, he called me every name in the book. Put me down in every way you can imagine. We were doing tablework at my house once--my apartment--and he called me a pig. Right in my own home.
ME: Why?
THEM: He found out I was dating my co-star in this play, and he sort of grunted and said, um, 'You're such a pig.'
ME: Jesus.
THEM: He hated when actors dated other actors. Hated it.
ME: Why do you think that is?
THEM: No idea. Maybe because none of us wanted to date him. But I don't know that for sure.
ME: What else?
THEM: He threw me out of rehearsal several times.
ME: For what reason?
THEM: Everything from me paraphrasing a line to dropping a prop I was supposed to be holding. The prop didn't break.
ME: Who cares if it did?
THEM: I know. He threw things at me over the years a few times. That was his MO, I guess. Um. It was--people talked about it like a badge of honor. That he would throw something at you. Oh, you're in the club now.
ME: Is that how people talked about it?
THEM: Yes.
ME: And he got in your face?
THEM: That one time and--he loved to do this thing--where--he would go from yelling to whispering. He'd be yelling and yelling and then he'd stop and you'd think--Oh thank god, he's done--and then he'd come up to you, right up to you, and whisper the most hurtful thing. That was usually when he was done.
ME: What kinds of things if you can--
THEM: Well, after my mother died, and I was at this rehearsal--this was a week later--a week later--um--he started out being nice. But I could tell that he didn't like that the rehearsal, sadly, was going to have to be about me to some extent--to, uh, dealing with me and what I was going through--
ME: What do you mean by that?
THEM: He liked to direct in a very insensitive, non-pc, aggressive sort of way and if you couldn't handle that, he didn't want to work with you, and usually that was okay with me, but this time, it couldn't be, because I was, you know, grieving, and so he was trying to, um, be more attuned to that, and I was doing okay, and then I couldn't say this one word correctly--I just had trouble with it--this one--it was French--my character was saying this French word. And he said 'Did you look it up?' And you didn't lie to him, um, you just didn't. That was a death sentence. But I had looked it up. The word. I just couldn't say it. It was one of those things. I said 'I did look it up.' And he said 'No, you didn't.' And I said, 'Yes, I f___ing did.'
ME: You challenged him.
THEM: Yes.
ME: And what happened?
THEM: We finished rehearsal. We just--I guess we skipped that scene. And that night I got an e-mail telling me I was out of the show.
ME: You're kidding.
THEM: Nope.
ME: Who was the e-mail from?
THEM: The General Manager.
ME: Not even him?
THEM: No. I mean, he wouldn't--it was done the way it was supposed to be done.
ME: Aside from the fact that you shouldn't have been--
THEM: Yes.
ME: What did the e-mail say?
THEM: That due to my behavior as a result of the loss of my mother, the theater believed it would be best if I left the production.
ME: Is that--I'm not disputing what you're saying at all, but did you yourself think maybe they were telling the truth about that?
THEM: Uh--it might have been a bad idea to keep me in the show, but I think that should have been a conversation and not an e-mail.
ME: Yes. Agreed.
THEM: I knew all my lines. I knew all my blocking. I wasn't sobbing onstage in the middle of a--I wasn't holding anybody up. I couldn't say a word correctly and then I swore at the director when he said I didn't do my homework and I always did my homework so write me up, but then write him up for telling the all the women in the cast that they looked fat in their costumes.
ME: He did that?
THEM: On the same show, yes.
ME: And you got removed from the--
THEM: Yes.
ME: Was that the one that made you decide to take a break?
THEM: Believe it or not, no. It was--you know, after everything, it was the smallest thing.
ME: It usually is.
THEM: We did a show together. Small show. Five people. I was the lead. Everything was great. And then...The night we opened, um, he took me aside, and told me I was doing this one scene differently than how he wanted it--and I wasn't. He was--he was playing a game with me.
ME: Did he do that often?
THEM: Yes. He hated actors being complacent--which is fine, but his way of dealing with it--even before it happened--was with mind games. You can't be complacent if you're being gaslit, right? If you're never sure you're doing well or what the director wants or anything, right? He tells me 'You're not doing it the way you've been directed to do it, and I've been biting my tongue--' which is funny because him biting his tongue is, um, yeah, and he says--'I've been biting my tongue all through previews, but you've gone rogue.' And I laughed. I laughed right in his face.
ME: Oh f___.
THEM: Yup. I couldn't help it. Almost fifteen years of this bulls___ and I just had to laugh. It was so ridiculous. E-mailing me notes all day long and late at night. Calling me. These long lectures he would give about how he would do the part if he were me. Endless, endless speeches. All condescending. All insulting. Nothing helpful, really. Just--and cruel. Often cruel. And here he is on opening night--five before places--telling me I've been subverting him. Sabotaging this one scene. And he's been holding back from, um, telling me. And I laughed.
ME: What did he do?
THEM: I just kept laughing and he looked at me like I was nuts and then they called places and I went on and did the show and everything went great, and from that point on, whenever he tried to talk to me, I would just--I would tell him to get the f___ away from me. That we were done.
ME: And he--sorry, but--he allowed that? This guy who got you fired before?
THEM: Well, this was different. Even when he got me fired, I was still underfoot. You know, when he fired me, I still sent him an apology e-mail.
ME: Oh no.
THEM: Yeah. Not proud of that, but. Yeah. This time I was done. And he knew it. I was out. Um, which meant dealing with me in a different way.
ME: What did he do?
THEM: Started this, um, little quiet campaign against me. Emailing people. Telling them about how erratic I was being. How I was messing up the show. Telling them--I got great reviews by the way. The show was great. But he was still saying I was doing a horrible job. Um, how I've always been bad to work with. Always negative. Toxic. Saying I talk badly about people. That I'm abusive. Unpredictable.
ME: Projection?
THEM: (Laughs.) I guess.
ME: And people bought it?
THEM: It doesn't matter if they did. I don't even know why he felt he had to work so hard at it. It was coming from him. He could have just said 'We're not casting her anymore' and that would have been it. Nobody would have gone against him.
ME: So you took yourself out instead?
THEM: And it was--I was very upset, but it was also a relief, because I couldn't operate in a community with him and with people supporting him.
ME: I want to talk about that--the enabling--
THEM: Yes. But I also did it. I enabled.
ME: And you felt like you didn't have a choice.
THEM: Look, and this is, um--I would love to think that there's a choice and then there's change. But usually the change has to happen first. You--when it's a whole group of people like that--working in the same place--it needs to be a big change. We had people who wanted the change. But not enough. I was just trying to keep my head above water.
ME: Were there places that refused to work with him?
THEM: Yes, and they were--like I said--considered not even worth paying attention to.
ME: Is he still there? Working there?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Do you hope he reads this?
THEM: I would love that.
ME: Give me his email address.
THEM: (Laughs.) One thing that happened--I was telling someone about this--and they said, 'Well, I need to hear his side of the story.' He denies none of what I'm saying. Nobody does. It's people saying, 'Yes, this is what's going on, but there's nothing wrong with it. Toughen up.'
ME: Like what your mom said.
THEM: Yes, although she feels differently now.
ME: I would hope so.
THEM: (Laughs.) She's dead, but I feel that she would agree with me. That's why--I think I'm relieved. To--to say 'Well, he's denying it' I could see--I could, I guess, work within that fight. There'd be a fight there. But there's no fight. They're saying, 'Yeah, he did it, but look what great work he does. I want to be doing that work too. So I'll put up with it. And if you don't want to put up with it, then there's the door.'
ME: The system that's in place right now to protect people like you from people like that--
THEM: It doesn't work. Because we're really left to our own devices in these communities. We're given a set of rules, but it's up to us, really, if we follow those rules or not. There's no overarching committee that says, 'You're letting this guy get away with murder.'
ME: Someone could have gone to equity.
THEM: Not anonymously. And for good reason, I get that, but...it's a flawed system when it's all about your name. Your good name. And the first thing that happens is--you give that up. That gets ruined. You're damaged.
ME: I think I need to say at this point that I've said some pretty awful things to people in the context of running my theater.
THEM: Stuff on this level?
ME: Um--I've blown up. I've definitely blown up at people in ways that were--uncalled for.
THEM: Why did you do that?
ME: Because I felt I was entitled to, because they weren't appreciating how hard my life was trying to undertake this big thing.
THEM: Did you apologize afterwards?
ME: Sometimes I did. Not all the time.
THEM: Why not all the time?
ME: Because I had seen other people do it, and get away with it, and not apologize.
THEM: Do you think you should apologize?
ME: Now, yes.
THEM: And what about people you work with?
ME: Like, have I ever enlisted the work of any, uh, wolves?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Yes.
THEM: Even after you saw their behavior?
ME: Yes. Not--well, yes.
THEM: Why?
ME: Because I wasn't going to be the only one--I wasn't going to go out on that limb and get into it with someone the rest of the community was standing by.
THEM: Could it also be because you knew about your own behavior and didn't want that coming out?
ME: Sure. Yes. That too.
THEM: Why do you think communities stand by people like that?
ME: I think--for me--it's longevity. If you can just--survive--and keep doing work--long enough--in a particular area--people will forget. They always do. They forget. And so--and then you develop this reputation of--this person who has been around forever, and don't challenge them, they're this important person in the community. Don't destroy that. They're our history. And so--you don't. You don't want to be the person who destroys history. And--in my case--maybe you're just not that brave.
THEM: I think--and this is something I've been dealing with too--the audience holds some responsibility.
ME: You think they know about all this stuff that happens behind--
THEM: We don't give them enough credit. I think--I know, at least in my case--that they knew about some of this. Of this behavior.
ME: And they didn't care.
THEM: Food's good, who cares what happens in the kitchen.
ME: That's gross.
THEM: It is. I care about what happens in the kitchen. I think we need to hold the--the enablers accountable first. I think that's where so many of us are going, um, wrong, I guess. We're aiming ourselves at the people committing the behavior, and we need to be looking at the people propping them up. Without that support, they fall, and I think--based on conversations I've had with other people in other places that have had success getting rid of these people--that's how you do it.
ME: Take out the enablers.
THEM: Yes.
ME: And what does that look like?
THEM: Just disregard the--I say the abuser. Disregard them. Say 'This Artistic Director supports this kind of behavior.' 'This actor supports this kind of behavior.'
ME: That must get you in so much trouble.
THEM: Oh it does. I only started doing it after I decided I was never going to work anymore anyway.
ME: Yeah, it's a very scorch the earth approach.
THEM: And that doesn't even work--not all the time. But it works more than, um, than getting into it with someone who's just going to hide behind their, like you were saying, their legacy.
ME: Is there--like you just said to me--were you scared of your own actions coming into play. Were you scared of calling out enablers having been an enabler?
THEM: Yes, so I owned it. I owned it from the get-go. But it doesn't mean anything after you've--after the person has already started black-balling you. It's more effective if you're still on good terms with them.
ME: You blindside them.
THEM: Um, basically, yes.
ME: This all requires a lot of--
THEM: Bravery, yeah.
ME: Which is everybody's favorite word to use about artists. That we're brave.
THEM: And a lot of us aren't. Not when it counts.
ME: I'm not, that's for sure.
THEM: Do you know anybody who is?
ME: Oh, I do. Yes.
THEM: Do they work?
ME: Not at the level they should.
THEM: Do you ever wonder why?
ME: No, I know why.
THEM: Have you ever kept someone out of your theater because they would call you out on your bulls___?
ME: Yes.
THEM: Um, so something I'd like to ask then--
ME: Yes?
THEM: Can you stop doing that?
ME: Yes.
THEM: Can you promise me you'll stop doing that?
ME: Yes.
THEM: Can you also promise you won't work with people like the one we're talking about?
ME: I don't know if I can promise that.
THEM: As I was asking you that, I was thinking it was unfair of me to ask.
ME: It's not unfair, but--like, if Christian Bale asked me to do a movie with him tomorrow, I'm not going to say 'No.' And that's--
THEM: Christian Bale?
ME: Remember when he yelled at the guy on the set of--
THEM: I forgot all about that.
ME: I never did. That always bothered me.
THEM: But you'd work with him?
ME: I would. I wouldn't feel good about it, but I would.
THEM: Thank you for being honest about that.
ME: Please don't thank me for being chickens____.
THEM: (Laughs.) Will you--this is what I say now--will you work towards being better for yourself and others?
ME: I--I can work towards that, yes.
THEM: That's all I really want to ask.
ME: Thank you for doing this.
THEM: And if you need any actors at your theater--
ME: I have a couch. I have roles. I have everything.
THEM: Just don't throw any chairs at me.
ME: I can honestly say I've never thrown a chair.
THEM: Well, that's a good place to start.
Them is currently taking a break from acting, but hopes that one day that will change.
Wow! I can relate to this in several ways....which doesn’t make me feel all that good!
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