After last week's interview (which you can find by clicking here https://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2019/06/on-theater-and-big-bad-wolf.html) a chain of events resulted in friends and supporters of the man we referred to as "The Wolf" reaching out to share their own stories, and in some cases, criticize the interview.
Many of them were women, and while I'm not trying to make any kind of statement about that, it does come up in the interview, and I wanted to give one of the women a chance to respond. I was curious to talk to someone on the subject of enabling the behavior talked about in the previous interview.
The person I spoke with last week is doing well and says they feel great about having had the conversation.
Now, here's the interview conducted over the phone:
Warning: Strong Language and Some Intense Situations Are Described
ME: Hello.
THEM: Hello.
ME: Thank you for speaking with me.
THEM: Happy to do it.
ME: I don't usually reveal anything about the people I interview for this series, but I do want to say that you're a woman.
THEM: I am.
ME: Because, initially, when I posted the interview from last week, a lot of people chimed in to talk about how horrible this type of behavior is towards women, and I felt like I had to mention that a lot of the pushback I was getting was from women.
THEM: Well I think it's sexist that you would assume women shouldn't be defending someone just because some other woman attacked him.
ME: If that seems sexist, I apologize. It was surprising to me. I think it was surprising to other people as well, because I think it is true that this behavior is often aimed at women.
THEM: I have my own mind. Every woman has her own mind and her own, uh, well, I've said what I was going to say about that.
ME: Okay, so you know the person who was spoken about in last week's interview.
THEM: For nineteen--almost twenty years.
ME: As an actor?
THEM: Actor. Yes. I've worked on a few of their shows as a producer. They've come into--I teach acting classes and I've had them come in and speak to my classes.
ME: So you're friendly with them.
THEM: I would say that, yes.
ME: And you don't dispute any of the things that were said in the last interview?
THEM: Well, I do.
ME: So you're saying some of that was untrue.
THEM: What exactly are you referring to?
ME: Let's start with the chair-throwing.
THEM: I have seen [The Wolf] throw a chair, yes.
ME: More than once?
THEM: Uh, not--I don't know why this is such a big issue.
ME: You don't know why throwing a chair across the room in a rehearsal would be a big issue?
THEM: Please don't condescend to me.
ME: That's not condescension, honestly. That's shock.
THEM: People get mad. People react.
ME: You think that's an appropriate reaction to getting mad because a person didn't know their lines?
THEM: Didn't you snap at someone in one of these interviews--or you said you snapped at someone--for not knowing their lines?
ME: I snapped at them, yes, I didn't throw a chair at them.
THEM: But snapping at them is appropriate?
ME: It's not appropriate. I'm not defending bad behavior. We all behave badly sometimes. Not all of us throw chairs or tell someone we're going to kick them out of the effing theater.
THEM: Are you afraid to swear?
ME: F___ no, I'm not afraid to swear. I was trying to keep this--I wanted to just go thing by thing here and keep it civil.
THEM: I'm not disputing that [The Wolf] can be difficult. He's also a genius. He's--there's nobody better to work with in terms of, uh, the final product that you're going to get.
ME: And who determined that he was a genius? Did he win a MacArthur grant?
THEM: I mean if you want to argue about what makes a genius--
ME: It's just a--it's a ritualistic way of condoning bad behavior, and, let's be honest, it's theater, like--Rachel Chavkin is a genius. Diane Paulus is a genius. I've read reviews of this guy's work. He sounds like a person who can put up a play and get some good performances out of people, maybe, but it doesn't seem like he's reinventing the wheel.
THEM: Well that's an opinion from someone who hasn't seen any of his work.
ME: So you do feel that he's reinventing the wheel?
THEM: I feel like you don't have to reinvent the wheel to be a genius.
ME: So what makes him a genius?
THEM: I don't want to define what a genius is.
ME: Okay.
THEM: Next question?
ME: Uh, okay, so--we'll leave defining a genius alone, but, um--
THEM: Would you say you're a genius?
ME: I am definitely not a genius.
THEM: Okay then.
ME: I'm not sure why you would ask--
THEM: Well I've looked at your profile and you seem to think a lot of yourself.
ME: You're basing what you think I think of myself on my social media posts?
THEM: We just--
ME: Who's we?
THEM: Some of the people who've been hurt by your interview.
ME: People have been hurt?
THEM: Yes. People feel very hurt.
ME: Do you think anybody's been hurt by the actions of [The Wolf]?
THEM: I wouldn't know.
ME: What about the person who did the interview with me?
THEM: I know people who--there are people who are bitter.
ME: So you don't think anyone should feel hurt by [The Wolf]'s actions?
THEM: I think people can be...sensitive.
ME: Sooooo she's sensitive for feeling upset about certain things that happened to her, but you're justified in feeling hurt because I did an interview where I didn't name anybody--
THEM: You didn't need to name them--
ME: --I didn't name anybody, regardless, and you were hurt by--
THEM: And I saw the comments your friends made on social media about--they don't know this man. They don't know the people where I live. You can tell that one guy to go f___ himself and his high horse, by the way. He seems like a real piece of work.
ME: Are you talking about--I don't want to--
THEM: And I've--I asked around about your--about you all, and it doesn't sound like you have any business judging--
ME: There were people--
THEM: May I finish?
ME: Sure.
THEM: Thank you. To have people saying--what's wrong with these people for--I know, for a fact, I know someone who reached out to us--to one of my friends--who said you have people working there, where you are, Rhode Island, wherever, who have done a lot worse than what you talked about in your interview.
ME: I didn't say I was--Can I talk now?
THEM: Go right ahead.
ME: Okay--I didn't say that I was working in a magical land where nothing bad happens and nobody misbehaves. I wanted to do an interview with someone from another community to show that this happens everywhere--
THEM: Does it happen at your theater?
ME: Bad behavior? It has, yes. Sure.
THEM: Oh, but you've never thrown a chair at someone.
ME: But I've lost my temper, yes. I've had many moments I'm not proud of, and I said that in the interview. Did you read it or did you just head right for the comments section?
THEM: But you think you can come after someone else--
ME: I let someone have their say. And I think the point was--we can all--
THEM: Yeah, what was the point?
ME: I think the point was--
THEM: You let one side have their say.
ME: You're the other side--
THEM: I'm another side, but I'm not [The Wolf].
ME: I was trying to say we can all do better in trying to prevent this behavior. The people committing it and the people enabling it.
THEM: Because I'm an enabler?
ME: I think you're an enabler, yes. Based on what--
THEM: I enable talent--that's true.
ME: And the only way to--Wow. I have to just--I need to take a minute.
THEM: Oh, did I upset you?
ME: No, I'd have to respect you for you to upset me.
THEM: We can just end the interview if you want.
ME: I mean, that's up to you, but I feel like--I feel like you're trying to provoke me--
THEM: I'm just not going to continue to let you slander someone--
ME: Didn't say his name.
THEM: You don't have to say someone's name to slander them.
ME: I think--I think you do, actually.
THEM: He doesn't deserve that.
ME: Look, maybe I--I will grant you that every theater community is its own bubble with its own rules and its own hierarchy, and I'm sure that what I did might have--upset the hierarchy in your community by shining a light on someone who by all accounts is a predator and seems to have, um, um, just basically gotten where he is by outlasting everyone else--but you yourself should be questioning that hierarchy yourself as a--
THEM: You assume so much.
ME: So tell me this--what's the worst thing this guy has ever said to you?
THEM: To me?
ME: Yes. Do you think you can answer that honestly?
THEM: I certainly can. He told me I was a f___ing idiot once.
ME: That seems to be a favorite phrase of his.
THEM: I guess so.
ME: Did it bother you?
THEM: I got over it.
ME: But you think he had the right to say it?
THEM: I didn't concern myself--I don't concern myself with what people have the right to say. You're a writer. You don't believe in letting people say what they want?
ME: Would you let him talk to--If someone you loved was working with him--
THEM: My son has worked with him.
ME: Okay, so--Does he talk to your son that way?
THEM: My son's gotten yelled at a few times, yeah.
ME: For what reasons?
THEM: When he messes up. And you know what else? He plays--he's on a team. And his coach talks to him the same way. It's okay for the coach but not for his director?
ME: So it's just locker room talk?
THEM: I guess it is.
ME: Just so you know, I--surprisingly--know a lot of coaches, and none of them have ever called a kid on their team a f___ing idiot.
THEM: Maybe they're not very good coaches.
ME: I'm sure they're better at coaching than you are at acting if you're letting a director disrespect you like that.
THEM: It's not--
ME: And I--all right, I won't say that.
THEM: Say it.
ME: And I doubt how good a parent you are if you let somebody disrespect your son like that and you tell him it's okay.
THEM: I tell him the director has a job to do.
ME: Let me tell you something, and I'll repeat this and I have--anything you can learn from cruelty, you can learn from kindness.
THEM: That's nice, but that's not the real world.
ME: We're not talking about the real world. I'm doing a play right now about a talking spider. This is not the real world.
THEM: You are entitled to work with whoever you want. If you don't want to work with someone, don't work with them.
ME: You might not have a choice.
THEM: There's always a choice.
ME: Do you think most people get asked to work with five companies and they pick the one they like the most?
THEM: If they're good.
ME: Even if they're--come on, now.
THEM: But the woman you talked to--she cashed the check, didn't she? So all that--all those problems she had--couldn't have bothered her that much, right?
ME: You're right. She should have ripped up the check. Then she could have been abused and broke at the same time.
THEM: You're so clever. I bet everybody loves how clever you are in Rhode Island.
ME: Actually they're all pretty sick of it.
THEM: Good for you, Rhode Island.
ME: You keep saying Rhode Island with this tone like you think it's some quaint town in the middle of nowhere.
THEM: I don't really know where it is.
ME: They sell maps, you know.
THEM: I don't really care where it is. It doesn't seem like you have many nice people there.
ME: Well, it's New England, so that's true, but only one of them throws chairs.
THEM: Oh, are you going to interview somebody about him?
ME: That's the plan.
THEM: I can't wait to read it.
ME: Can I just ask--did you have any intention of anything positive coming out of this conversation?
THEM: I needed to speak out on behalf of someone who has been unfairly--
ME: Oh my god, get a grip, girl.
THEM: --To have someone who doesn't even know him--
ME: Then let him come talk to me about it. I was--this was to talk about enabling, and I really had no interest in speaking to him, but if this is going to be about one of his Kool-Aid drinkers lecturing me on what slander is, I might as well just go right to the source.
THEM: I'm not sure he wants to talk to you.
ME: Of course not, you're doing such a good job on your own. I'm guessing that's why all the men were hanging back from defending him. They send in the women to do the dirty work, because it makes for better optics.
THEM: That's funny, but that's not true.
ME: I was born at night, but I wasn't born last night.
THEM: He has worked continuously for most of his life, and now--this is what everybody does these days--they take someone who has been successful, who--they take them--and they tear them apart. There is no--you want to talk about 'Oh he did this and he did that'--the man has been around since--none of this stuff used to get everybody all twisted up. This was normal. If someone told you to get the f___ over there or do this, you didn't get upset and cry over it. You did what you were supposed to do and then you, you know, you went out for drinks after and bitched about it. It wasn't a crime.
ME: But again--we don't allow that in offices. We don't allow that in--
THEM: It happens in offices.
ME: I know, but we all agree that it's not appropriate--
THEM: A theater isn't an office.
ME: It's supposed to be a place where we make art and you're talking about belittling people and screaming at them.
(Silence.)
ME: Well?
THEM: That's how some of us like to make art.
ME: At your lowest point? Stripped of your--wow.
THEM: Of my what?
ME: Of your--of your dignity? That's how you want to make art? What kind of art do you think you're making like that?
THEM: I'm very proud of the work I've done with [The Wolf].
ME: Yeah, and imagine what you could have done if you didn't feel like s___.
THEM: Some people need to be pushed.
ME: Pushing someone and throwing them out of a show when their mother dies--
THEM: This is not--you sound like one of those people who want to do this touchy-feely theater stuff--not everybody wants to do that. Some of us like--some of us want to do real work.
ME: So touchy-feely--what do you mean by that?
THEM: This--watch what you say in the room, watch how you talk--not everybody wants that.
ME: Let me--okay. I have a question.
THEM: Okay.
ME: Did you ever see him put his hands on someone?
THEM: No.
ME: Would it--okay. Would it surprise you to know that I have an email right now from someone who said he shoved them?
THEM: Shoved them?
ME: Yes.
THEM: Who was it?
ME: Well, I'm not saying--
THEM: I bet I know who it was.
ME: I'm not saying who it is.
THEM: That was--he didn't really shove him.
ME: So you do know who I'm talking about?
THEM: He was showing him--
ME: So he put his hands on--
THEM: He was showing them how to get aggressive.
ME: So he was demonstrating blocking?
THEM: Yeah, he was--
ME: He was demonstrating blocking or he was saying 'You need to stop being--'
THEM: I don't think this is--
ME: I have the email right here. The, the person says, 'He told me to stop acting like a p____ and get in his face. Do I have to show you how to stop acting like a p____? See this? Is this helping? Am I getting you mad?' Does that sound right?
THEM: I wasn't there for it.
ME: Does that sound--
THEM: You're very sanctimonious, do you know that?
ME: Call me whatever you f___ing want. Did he put his--
THEM: Listen--
ME: Did he put his hands on someone and use that language to--
THEM: Listen, I'm done here.
ME: So you knew he did it?
THEM: He was showing him what to do.
ME: So he was showing an actor how to shove another actor?
THEM: I don't--I don't really--
ME: Because I have another email from someone who was there who says that he was trying to get him angry. He was trying to show him how to be--
THEM: You and your emails.
ME: That's not how you--
THEM: The person could have--they could have complained.
ME: They did. And they haven't gotten a role from that--from the theater where this happened since--
THEM: You're talking about something that happened a long time ago.
ME: This says 2015.
THEM: Well, that's--
ME: And it doesn't matter. I don't care if it happened in 1812.
THEM: I wasn't there.
ME: Do you have any idea why this person--
THEM: Which one?
ME: The one who got assaulted.
THEM: An assault isn't a shove.
ME: Do you know why he hasn't worked since that happened?
THEM: I wouldn't know.
ME: He says he worked pretty steadily before that. Then he complained when this happened. Hasn't really--
THEM: I wouldn't--
ME: He says he got blacklisted by [The Wolf].
THEM: I don't believe that.
ME: So you know this person shoved another actor and you have this motherf____er come in and talk to students?
THEM: See, now you're getting very aggressive towards me.
ME: I'm on the phone. I'm not putting my hands on--
THEM: You're using very strong language--
ME: I thought you weren't bothered by strong language?
THEM: I--
ME: I thought that didn't bother you?
THEM: Just seems hypocritical.
ME: You know this person throws chairs, shoves people--
THEM: I don't--
ME: And you bring this person in to talk to your classes?
THEM: And those classes--and the ones he teaches--they're always full.
ME: So are Chris Brown concerts. That's not saying much.
THEM: I'm saying more people don't seem to have a problem with him than do.
ME: This is not a majority/minority issue. You don't have to treat a lot of people like s___ to be an a__hole. You can treat one person like s___ and you're an a______.
THEM: That would make everybody an asshole.
ME: Not everybody calls somebody a p____ and shoves them in front of a room full of people and then gets asked to teach a scene study class though, right?
THEM: I don't know what you want me to say.
ME: Okay, I--let's--wow, okay--let's just stop here.
THEM: I was done awhile ago.
ME: Right, right.
THEM: And I would appreciate you not mentioning shoving since that issue has since been dealt with.
ME: How was it dealt with?
THEM: It was dealt with?
ME: Can you tell me how?
THEM: Like I said, it happened a long time ago so if you--
ME: I am going to mention it.
THEM: You might want to be careful about that.
ME: Let's put it this way--I'm going to mention it, and if [The Wolf] wants to dispute it, he can let me know himself.
THEM: I am telling you to be very careful with this.
ME: I have--
THEM: I don't care what you have.
ME: You keep talking like I should be scared. Are you saying I should be scared?
THEM: You should be careful.
ME: Careful means scared.
THEM: Okay.
ME: Okay, I should be scared?
THEM: You do not want to go any further with this than you have.
ME: See, that means I'm going to go all the way.
THEM: I--
ME: Thanks. This was great.
And that was the end of the phone call.
Many of them were women, and while I'm not trying to make any kind of statement about that, it does come up in the interview, and I wanted to give one of the women a chance to respond. I was curious to talk to someone on the subject of enabling the behavior talked about in the previous interview.
The person I spoke with last week is doing well and says they feel great about having had the conversation.
Now, here's the interview conducted over the phone:
Warning: Strong Language and Some Intense Situations Are Described
ME: Hello.
THEM: Hello.
ME: Thank you for speaking with me.
THEM: Happy to do it.
ME: I don't usually reveal anything about the people I interview for this series, but I do want to say that you're a woman.
THEM: I am.
ME: Because, initially, when I posted the interview from last week, a lot of people chimed in to talk about how horrible this type of behavior is towards women, and I felt like I had to mention that a lot of the pushback I was getting was from women.
THEM: Well I think it's sexist that you would assume women shouldn't be defending someone just because some other woman attacked him.
ME: If that seems sexist, I apologize. It was surprising to me. I think it was surprising to other people as well, because I think it is true that this behavior is often aimed at women.
THEM: I have my own mind. Every woman has her own mind and her own, uh, well, I've said what I was going to say about that.
ME: Okay, so you know the person who was spoken about in last week's interview.
THEM: For nineteen--almost twenty years.
ME: As an actor?
THEM: Actor. Yes. I've worked on a few of their shows as a producer. They've come into--I teach acting classes and I've had them come in and speak to my classes.
ME: So you're friendly with them.
THEM: I would say that, yes.
ME: And you don't dispute any of the things that were said in the last interview?
THEM: Well, I do.
ME: So you're saying some of that was untrue.
THEM: What exactly are you referring to?
ME: Let's start with the chair-throwing.
THEM: I have seen [The Wolf] throw a chair, yes.
ME: More than once?
THEM: Uh, not--I don't know why this is such a big issue.
ME: You don't know why throwing a chair across the room in a rehearsal would be a big issue?
THEM: Please don't condescend to me.
ME: That's not condescension, honestly. That's shock.
THEM: People get mad. People react.
ME: You think that's an appropriate reaction to getting mad because a person didn't know their lines?
THEM: Didn't you snap at someone in one of these interviews--or you said you snapped at someone--for not knowing their lines?
ME: I snapped at them, yes, I didn't throw a chair at them.
THEM: But snapping at them is appropriate?
ME: It's not appropriate. I'm not defending bad behavior. We all behave badly sometimes. Not all of us throw chairs or tell someone we're going to kick them out of the effing theater.
THEM: Are you afraid to swear?
ME: F___ no, I'm not afraid to swear. I was trying to keep this--I wanted to just go thing by thing here and keep it civil.
THEM: I'm not disputing that [The Wolf] can be difficult. He's also a genius. He's--there's nobody better to work with in terms of, uh, the final product that you're going to get.
ME: And who determined that he was a genius? Did he win a MacArthur grant?
THEM: I mean if you want to argue about what makes a genius--
ME: It's just a--it's a ritualistic way of condoning bad behavior, and, let's be honest, it's theater, like--Rachel Chavkin is a genius. Diane Paulus is a genius. I've read reviews of this guy's work. He sounds like a person who can put up a play and get some good performances out of people, maybe, but it doesn't seem like he's reinventing the wheel.
THEM: Well that's an opinion from someone who hasn't seen any of his work.
ME: So you do feel that he's reinventing the wheel?
THEM: I feel like you don't have to reinvent the wheel to be a genius.
ME: So what makes him a genius?
THEM: I don't want to define what a genius is.
ME: Okay.
THEM: Next question?
ME: Uh, okay, so--we'll leave defining a genius alone, but, um--
THEM: Would you say you're a genius?
ME: I am definitely not a genius.
THEM: Okay then.
ME: I'm not sure why you would ask--
THEM: Well I've looked at your profile and you seem to think a lot of yourself.
ME: You're basing what you think I think of myself on my social media posts?
THEM: We just--
ME: Who's we?
THEM: Some of the people who've been hurt by your interview.
ME: People have been hurt?
THEM: Yes. People feel very hurt.
ME: Do you think anybody's been hurt by the actions of [The Wolf]?
THEM: I wouldn't know.
ME: What about the person who did the interview with me?
THEM: I know people who--there are people who are bitter.
ME: So you don't think anyone should feel hurt by [The Wolf]'s actions?
THEM: I think people can be...sensitive.
ME: Sooooo she's sensitive for feeling upset about certain things that happened to her, but you're justified in feeling hurt because I did an interview where I didn't name anybody--
THEM: You didn't need to name them--
ME: --I didn't name anybody, regardless, and you were hurt by--
THEM: And I saw the comments your friends made on social media about--they don't know this man. They don't know the people where I live. You can tell that one guy to go f___ himself and his high horse, by the way. He seems like a real piece of work.
ME: Are you talking about--I don't want to--
THEM: And I've--I asked around about your--about you all, and it doesn't sound like you have any business judging--
ME: There were people--
THEM: May I finish?
ME: Sure.
THEM: Thank you. To have people saying--what's wrong with these people for--I know, for a fact, I know someone who reached out to us--to one of my friends--who said you have people working there, where you are, Rhode Island, wherever, who have done a lot worse than what you talked about in your interview.
ME: I didn't say I was--Can I talk now?
THEM: Go right ahead.
ME: Okay--I didn't say that I was working in a magical land where nothing bad happens and nobody misbehaves. I wanted to do an interview with someone from another community to show that this happens everywhere--
THEM: Does it happen at your theater?
ME: Bad behavior? It has, yes. Sure.
THEM: Oh, but you've never thrown a chair at someone.
ME: But I've lost my temper, yes. I've had many moments I'm not proud of, and I said that in the interview. Did you read it or did you just head right for the comments section?
THEM: But you think you can come after someone else--
ME: I let someone have their say. And I think the point was--we can all--
THEM: Yeah, what was the point?
ME: I think the point was--
THEM: You let one side have their say.
ME: You're the other side--
THEM: I'm another side, but I'm not [The Wolf].
ME: I was trying to say we can all do better in trying to prevent this behavior. The people committing it and the people enabling it.
THEM: Because I'm an enabler?
ME: I think you're an enabler, yes. Based on what--
THEM: I enable talent--that's true.
ME: And the only way to--Wow. I have to just--I need to take a minute.
THEM: Oh, did I upset you?
ME: No, I'd have to respect you for you to upset me.
THEM: We can just end the interview if you want.
ME: I mean, that's up to you, but I feel like--I feel like you're trying to provoke me--
THEM: I'm just not going to continue to let you slander someone--
ME: Didn't say his name.
THEM: You don't have to say someone's name to slander them.
ME: I think--I think you do, actually.
THEM: He doesn't deserve that.
ME: Look, maybe I--I will grant you that every theater community is its own bubble with its own rules and its own hierarchy, and I'm sure that what I did might have--upset the hierarchy in your community by shining a light on someone who by all accounts is a predator and seems to have, um, um, just basically gotten where he is by outlasting everyone else--but you yourself should be questioning that hierarchy yourself as a--
THEM: You assume so much.
ME: So tell me this--what's the worst thing this guy has ever said to you?
THEM: To me?
ME: Yes. Do you think you can answer that honestly?
THEM: I certainly can. He told me I was a f___ing idiot once.
ME: That seems to be a favorite phrase of his.
THEM: I guess so.
ME: Did it bother you?
THEM: I got over it.
ME: But you think he had the right to say it?
THEM: I didn't concern myself--I don't concern myself with what people have the right to say. You're a writer. You don't believe in letting people say what they want?
ME: Would you let him talk to--If someone you loved was working with him--
THEM: My son has worked with him.
ME: Okay, so--Does he talk to your son that way?
THEM: My son's gotten yelled at a few times, yeah.
ME: For what reasons?
THEM: When he messes up. And you know what else? He plays--he's on a team. And his coach talks to him the same way. It's okay for the coach but not for his director?
ME: So it's just locker room talk?
THEM: I guess it is.
ME: Just so you know, I--surprisingly--know a lot of coaches, and none of them have ever called a kid on their team a f___ing idiot.
THEM: Maybe they're not very good coaches.
ME: I'm sure they're better at coaching than you are at acting if you're letting a director disrespect you like that.
THEM: It's not--
ME: And I--all right, I won't say that.
THEM: Say it.
ME: And I doubt how good a parent you are if you let somebody disrespect your son like that and you tell him it's okay.
THEM: I tell him the director has a job to do.
ME: Let me tell you something, and I'll repeat this and I have--anything you can learn from cruelty, you can learn from kindness.
THEM: That's nice, but that's not the real world.
ME: We're not talking about the real world. I'm doing a play right now about a talking spider. This is not the real world.
THEM: You are entitled to work with whoever you want. If you don't want to work with someone, don't work with them.
ME: You might not have a choice.
THEM: There's always a choice.
ME: Do you think most people get asked to work with five companies and they pick the one they like the most?
THEM: If they're good.
ME: Even if they're--come on, now.
THEM: But the woman you talked to--she cashed the check, didn't she? So all that--all those problems she had--couldn't have bothered her that much, right?
ME: You're right. She should have ripped up the check. Then she could have been abused and broke at the same time.
THEM: You're so clever. I bet everybody loves how clever you are in Rhode Island.
ME: Actually they're all pretty sick of it.
THEM: Good for you, Rhode Island.
ME: You keep saying Rhode Island with this tone like you think it's some quaint town in the middle of nowhere.
THEM: I don't really know where it is.
ME: They sell maps, you know.
THEM: I don't really care where it is. It doesn't seem like you have many nice people there.
ME: Well, it's New England, so that's true, but only one of them throws chairs.
THEM: Oh, are you going to interview somebody about him?
ME: That's the plan.
THEM: I can't wait to read it.
ME: Can I just ask--did you have any intention of anything positive coming out of this conversation?
THEM: I needed to speak out on behalf of someone who has been unfairly--
ME: Oh my god, get a grip, girl.
THEM: --To have someone who doesn't even know him--
ME: Then let him come talk to me about it. I was--this was to talk about enabling, and I really had no interest in speaking to him, but if this is going to be about one of his Kool-Aid drinkers lecturing me on what slander is, I might as well just go right to the source.
THEM: I'm not sure he wants to talk to you.
ME: Of course not, you're doing such a good job on your own. I'm guessing that's why all the men were hanging back from defending him. They send in the women to do the dirty work, because it makes for better optics.
THEM: That's funny, but that's not true.
ME: I was born at night, but I wasn't born last night.
THEM: He has worked continuously for most of his life, and now--this is what everybody does these days--they take someone who has been successful, who--they take them--and they tear them apart. There is no--you want to talk about 'Oh he did this and he did that'--the man has been around since--none of this stuff used to get everybody all twisted up. This was normal. If someone told you to get the f___ over there or do this, you didn't get upset and cry over it. You did what you were supposed to do and then you, you know, you went out for drinks after and bitched about it. It wasn't a crime.
ME: But again--we don't allow that in offices. We don't allow that in--
THEM: It happens in offices.
ME: I know, but we all agree that it's not appropriate--
THEM: A theater isn't an office.
ME: It's supposed to be a place where we make art and you're talking about belittling people and screaming at them.
(Silence.)
ME: Well?
THEM: That's how some of us like to make art.
ME: At your lowest point? Stripped of your--wow.
THEM: Of my what?
ME: Of your--of your dignity? That's how you want to make art? What kind of art do you think you're making like that?
THEM: I'm very proud of the work I've done with [The Wolf].
ME: Yeah, and imagine what you could have done if you didn't feel like s___.
THEM: Some people need to be pushed.
ME: Pushing someone and throwing them out of a show when their mother dies--
THEM: This is not--you sound like one of those people who want to do this touchy-feely theater stuff--not everybody wants to do that. Some of us like--some of us want to do real work.
ME: So touchy-feely--what do you mean by that?
THEM: This--watch what you say in the room, watch how you talk--not everybody wants that.
ME: Let me--okay. I have a question.
THEM: Okay.
ME: Did you ever see him put his hands on someone?
THEM: No.
ME: Would it--okay. Would it surprise you to know that I have an email right now from someone who said he shoved them?
THEM: Shoved them?
ME: Yes.
THEM: Who was it?
ME: Well, I'm not saying--
THEM: I bet I know who it was.
ME: I'm not saying who it is.
THEM: That was--he didn't really shove him.
ME: So you do know who I'm talking about?
THEM: He was showing him--
ME: So he put his hands on--
THEM: He was showing them how to get aggressive.
ME: So he was demonstrating blocking?
THEM: Yeah, he was--
ME: He was demonstrating blocking or he was saying 'You need to stop being--'
THEM: I don't think this is--
ME: I have the email right here. The, the person says, 'He told me to stop acting like a p____ and get in his face. Do I have to show you how to stop acting like a p____? See this? Is this helping? Am I getting you mad?' Does that sound right?
THEM: I wasn't there for it.
ME: Does that sound--
THEM: You're very sanctimonious, do you know that?
ME: Call me whatever you f___ing want. Did he put his--
THEM: Listen--
ME: Did he put his hands on someone and use that language to--
THEM: Listen, I'm done here.
ME: So you knew he did it?
THEM: He was showing him what to do.
ME: So he was showing an actor how to shove another actor?
THEM: I don't--I don't really--
ME: Because I have another email from someone who was there who says that he was trying to get him angry. He was trying to show him how to be--
THEM: You and your emails.
ME: That's not how you--
THEM: The person could have--they could have complained.
ME: They did. And they haven't gotten a role from that--from the theater where this happened since--
THEM: You're talking about something that happened a long time ago.
ME: This says 2015.
THEM: Well, that's--
ME: And it doesn't matter. I don't care if it happened in 1812.
THEM: I wasn't there.
ME: Do you have any idea why this person--
THEM: Which one?
ME: The one who got assaulted.
THEM: An assault isn't a shove.
ME: Do you know why he hasn't worked since that happened?
THEM: I wouldn't know.
ME: He says he worked pretty steadily before that. Then he complained when this happened. Hasn't really--
THEM: I wouldn't--
ME: He says he got blacklisted by [The Wolf].
THEM: I don't believe that.
ME: So you know this person shoved another actor and you have this motherf____er come in and talk to students?
THEM: See, now you're getting very aggressive towards me.
ME: I'm on the phone. I'm not putting my hands on--
THEM: You're using very strong language--
ME: I thought you weren't bothered by strong language?
THEM: I--
ME: I thought that didn't bother you?
THEM: Just seems hypocritical.
ME: You know this person throws chairs, shoves people--
THEM: I don't--
ME: And you bring this person in to talk to your classes?
THEM: And those classes--and the ones he teaches--they're always full.
ME: So are Chris Brown concerts. That's not saying much.
THEM: I'm saying more people don't seem to have a problem with him than do.
ME: This is not a majority/minority issue. You don't have to treat a lot of people like s___ to be an a__hole. You can treat one person like s___ and you're an a______.
THEM: That would make everybody an asshole.
ME: Not everybody calls somebody a p____ and shoves them in front of a room full of people and then gets asked to teach a scene study class though, right?
THEM: I don't know what you want me to say.
ME: Okay, I--let's--wow, okay--let's just stop here.
THEM: I was done awhile ago.
ME: Right, right.
THEM: And I would appreciate you not mentioning shoving since that issue has since been dealt with.
ME: How was it dealt with?
THEM: It was dealt with?
ME: Can you tell me how?
THEM: Like I said, it happened a long time ago so if you--
ME: I am going to mention it.
THEM: You might want to be careful about that.
ME: Let's put it this way--I'm going to mention it, and if [The Wolf] wants to dispute it, he can let me know himself.
THEM: I am telling you to be very careful with this.
ME: I have--
THEM: I don't care what you have.
ME: You keep talking like I should be scared. Are you saying I should be scared?
THEM: You should be careful.
ME: Careful means scared.
THEM: Okay.
ME: Okay, I should be scared?
THEM: You do not want to go any further with this than you have.
ME: See, that means I'm going to go all the way.
THEM: I--
ME: Thanks. This was great.
And that was the end of the phone call.
So WOW! So many things to think about...like yes Kevin, you are definitely a genius...and you are also human (except when you are cast as a robot or something).
ReplyDeleteThinking also that I’m a little offended as i am a Rhode Islander....I’m mostly a nice Rhode Islander...or really try to be. I have had nothing but good experiences with Canadians . Anyway... I am too tired to be too coherent but wanted to add my two cents!
Not a little defensive, was she? [The Wolf] wasn't shoving he was showing. With foul language and in front of other people.
ReplyDeleteThrowing a chair is similar to swearing at someone.
Being a genius covers a multitude of sins.
But [The Wolf]'s never an a_____when [they] come into my class and teach.
Sad little monkey. Needs some serious counseling to get out of the victim mode.