I typically don't post more than one of these interviews in a week, because transcribing them can sometimes be a headache, but after I posted the Tuesday interview, I got a lot of feedback from people online asking why the director of the production that the Teenager I interviewed was in didn't get any flack from the Dream Team and why she didn't do something about the bullying.
It turns out, that director wanted to speak with me and answer some of these questions, and I decided it would be good to get that out sooner rather than later.
Here's the interview:
ME: Before we start, I just want to point out that you are not part of the Dream Team and you never have been.
THEM: Yes.
ME: You never had the t-shirt?
THEM: (Laughs.) I was never offered the t-shirt, no.
ME: Do you think they've burned them at this point?
THEM: Uh, they should. I would.
ME: So you read the interview, but I know you're not on social media.
THEM: I have an account. I just never check it.
ME: Did someone send you the interview?
THEM: They told me to go online and check it out.
ME: What was your reaction?
THEM: I knew about, uh, the bullying. There was--I knew about it.
ME: And you saw the comments involving you?
THEM: You mean--
ME: I mean the comments posted on the link to the interview. Where people were saying--
THEM: Oh right.
ME: --Why weren't they going after the director?
THEM: Yes.
ME: So...why didn't they go after you?
THEM: I mean, they might have. I'm sure they did, privately. I never received any, uh, official push-back from them, but that's not really their style.
ME: So none of them made it known to you that they were unhappy with your casting decision?
THEM: No. Not that it would have mattered.
ME: You wouldn't have cared?
THEM: No.
ME: Have you dealt with them before?
THEM: Uh, I've worked with a few of them before, yes.
ME: Were you aware that one of them wanted the lead?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Did you expect there to be a negative response when they--
THEM: Oh, yes.
ME: So that's happened before?
THEM: Not, um, where I was in the position of being the director, no. But, in general, whenever one of them doesn't get what they want, it usually turns into a, uh...
ME: A thing?
THEM: (Laughs.) A thing. Yes.
ME: What did you do when you saw that this girl was being bullied?
THEM: Well, the reason I wanted to talk to you was--I did do something. I know people were saying I should have--and I did.
ME: I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear in the interview with--
THEM: No, it's okay. You didn't make it seem like I didn't. People were--Okay, so let me be clear about a few things. I'm directing at this theater--where all this is taking place. I am not on the board at that theater. I am not on staff. I'm coming into it as, uh, someone in the community, but not--this just happened to be a show I was directing. Um. In terms of authority at the theater? I have about as much as anybody else coming in from the outside.
ME: And you're saying that to mean--
THEM: Just to say that, I had no way to, uh, officially respond to these people, when I saw what they were doing, and I thought that was what was needed.
ME: An official response?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Did you ask the theater for one?
THEM: I did.
ME: What did they say?
THEM: Well. (Laughs.) Sorry, it's just--First they said, um, basically--What are we supposed to do? They're not in the show you've just cast. They're just, uh, people online saying mean things. What are we supposed to do?
ME: And what did you say to that?
THEM: I said, uh, that they were people who had worked at the theater in the past. That they were people everybody in the community knew. That they were, uh, attacking a production. My production. The production at this theater--not just this young girl who had done nothing wrong. The, uh--
ME: Who were you speaking to about all of this?
THEM: The board.
ME: Okay.
THEM: And they felt like--Well, let's not get down in the mud with them. Let's not--if we get into it with them, we're only going to make things worse.
ME: I can understand that.
THEM: So do I. But I said, um, 'Okay, let's message them privately.' We have to deal with this. I did want to deal with it in some way.
ME: And what was the response to that?
THEM: It was--You know, it was--This is all social media. Nobody should be on social media. It's a problem. We can't really do anything.
ME: I like that when stuff goes down on social media, people act like maybe if we don't pay attention to Facebook, it'll just cease to exist. You have to deal with it.
THEM: You do, and uh, I can't--I mean, I can't really say anything, because I do take the approach of just--I don't deal with it. Usually. I ignore it. But I could see that this was--This was not okay.
ME: So the board just didn't know what to do?
THEM: That's what they were saying. And my last suggestion was--Why don't we put something together saying we, uh, won't work with them in the future? That there could be some kind of--
ME: A ban?
THEM: I don't want to say a ban, but, you know--
ME: Bench them for awhile?
THEM: Yeah, just--Something that says 'There are consequences to this. To what you're doing.' To do something, you know? I wanted to see something done. I did speak to (the teenager) and I made sure to let her know that these people were wrong. That their actions were wrong. Are wrong. And that I was very confident in my decision to cast her. That I felt good about it, and that she shouldn't let any of this bother her. But I know that's--She's very young. It's, uh, understandable that she's upset. I would be upset too. I was upset.
ME: What did the board say about your suggestion to bench them?
THEM: They--They didn't get back to me.
ME: So they didn't want to do it?
THEM: Uh, I think--I think that idea made them uncomfortable.
ME: Why?
THEM: I think it ties back into--You know, something you said in one of your--in the comments section of one of your posts--about mess and getting messy. That, uh, sometimes you have to do that. I think people who want to, uh, cause trouble can present you with that as a way to get you to back down. It's 'If you want to fire back at me, you're going to get messy and you don't want that so just sit down and shut up.' So you have to get into it with them. There's no other way. If you get messy, you get messy. What choice do you have?
ME: I love that you just justified me being messy.
THEM: (Laughs.) But I'm glad you got messy and I didn't have to get messy.
ME: You didn't respond to them?
THEM: Well it was--I posted something. On Facebook. On my profile. I couldn't respond directly to their comments and the bullying because they all blocked me.
ME: Mature.
THEM: Right? But I did say my peace.
ME: People on my Facebook are wondering why--or if there's been--more of a community outcry about this behavior?
THEM: Uh, people have spoken out, yes. But not the people that--Let me put it to you this way--The people--The theaters, I should say, and the people who run them--who have worked with these people regularly and who, uh, have--enabled, I guess, is the word--Those people have not spoken out.
ME: Why do you think that is?
THEM: I--Hmmm.
(A beat.)
ME: You don't have to answer that.
THEM: No, uh--Well, I know that the--I know that some people feel that they sell tickets.
ME: The Dream Team?
THEM: Yes, that--
ME: Do they sell tickets?
THEM: I wouldn't know. I don't look at box office reports. Um, honestly? I don't care if they do. I don't think that should be a deciding factor in working with people who bully children. Who bully anybody, really. With every day that goes by, if you haven't said anything--We're all now in a position where you have to have a response. Saying nothing is a response. Staying out of it is a response. You have to say something. There's no other choice. That's how I feel about it. And I think staying out of it to see who kind of--wins? That speaks volumes. It really does.
ME: Theater people are very good at that.
THEM: At what?
ME: Waiting to see who wins.
THEM: (Laughs.) That's, uh--yes.
ME: Does this theater have an Artistic Director?
THEM: It does.
ME: What do they have to say about all this?
THEM: (Laughs.) Now I'm going to get in trouble.
ME: Do it.
THEM: Uh...Okay. I don't know what their position on it is. They haven't said anything, but, uh, I do know that their son is, uh, dating someone with one of those t-shirts.
ME: And there we have it.
THEM: It's a small world.
ME: Are people scared of them because they operate as a group?
THEM: Oh, yes. Yes, that's--that's definitely part of it.
ME: Has any of this--these interviews--kind of--helped with that?
THEM: Yes. I think so. I think this has really been a wake-up call. No community wants to be at the receiving end of, uh, this kind of attention.
ME: People want to know where you all live.
THEM: It's not far from you.
ME: For Rhode Island, it's far.
THEM: (Laughs.) I used to live in Providence.
ME: Everybody used to live in Providence.
THEM: I lived off Broad Street for a few years.
ME: Did you do theater here?
THEM: No, I had newborn twins at the time. I didn't see much of Rhode Island.
ME: Do you think people should know who these people are? Their names?
THEM: I think for your sake--I'm assuming you have legal reasons for not naming them?
ME: That's part of it.
THEM: That's what I thought.
ME: It's also just like--What will that get you? Knowing who they are? None of you are going to work with them. I mean, none of the people in my area, so--What difference does it make? Does it make you feel better to know that you don't know them? Because, no matter who you are, you know people like them. There are people--in every community--
THEM: Yes.
ME: --That act like this. That do stuff like this. These people just have t-shirts. So instead of spending time trying to figure out who they are, go ferret out the people in your own community pulling this bulls*** and stop liking their f***ing statuses on Facebook.
THEM: Did I get you upset?
ME: It just--It nags at me. I get the curiosity, but I think it's really just a way to--I mean, I think it's a way to make people feel better. It's like when someone is murdered and the news says 'Well, they left their door unlocked' or 'They did this thing wrong and as long as you don't do it, you'll be fine.'
THEM: It makes people feel better.
ME: They want to place a face to the behavior.
THEM: Well, we're not that hard to find.
ME: Yeah, I'm surprised it's taken people this long.
THEM: I think it's about hiding in plain sight.
ME: Do you think you'll be in a situation where you have to work with any of them again?
THEM: I won't cast any of them.
ME: Even after the apologies?
THEM: (Laughs.) That was great.
ME: People still wanted me to drag them.
THEM: I think it's good you didn't.
ME: Well, I also only had dirt on four of them, but I waited until I got all six apologies to say that.
THEM: (Laughs.) You're too much.
ME: I just wanted two of them to sweat.
THEM: How good was the dirt?
ME: It was pretty good dirt.
THEM: That people sent to you?
ME: I had a full inbox after that first interview dropped.
THEM: I got some dirt I could give you.
ME: Oh yeah?
THEM: Off the record.
ME: Sure.
THEM: We'll talk when we're done with this.
ME: Do you think they should have the opportunity to come back from this?
THEM: I think when they post real apologies that don't invoke Jesus and when--When they realize--It's hard to talk about coming back, because they just left. I'm not even sure they've left. And they--What we're learning from all of this is that they deprived people of opportunities. So--nobody's asking when those people get to have their comeback, right?
ME: It ties into what people say about #MeToo--
THEM: Yes. Let's talk about every single woman who's--or in this case men and women--who have been affected by them getting theirs back, and then we'll talk about some kind of, uh, chance to make it up to those people, but--I don't know why that would be the first question anybody asks.
ME: Because I think everyone feels like they've done wrong in their life and they identify more with the perpetrator than the victim--most of the time.
THEM: Until you're the victim.
ME: Right, until you're the victim.
THEM: I don't know how we deal with people like this in a way that--I don't know the right way. If there is a right way. We're talking about--this is all--very few of us do this for a living. Usually if it's for money, it's for, uh, very little money, and, uh--So what do you have to hold against people? Their reputation? Who cares about a reputation anymore? Look who the President is. Nobody cares how you talk about them, or how you talk about what they've done. Maybe they don't like being, uh, you know, uncool or--the subject of people online saying mean things about them, but for every person who feels one way, there's a person who feels another way, so--It's very confusing to me. It's why I can see why people would rather--like how I do it--I'm just going to close my eyes.
ME: But while you're closing your eyes, they're still out there.
THEM: That's the tough part. That's, um--Yeah, that's tough.
Them is a director.
It turns out, that director wanted to speak with me and answer some of these questions, and I decided it would be good to get that out sooner rather than later.
Here's the interview:
ME: Before we start, I just want to point out that you are not part of the Dream Team and you never have been.
THEM: Yes.
ME: You never had the t-shirt?
THEM: (Laughs.) I was never offered the t-shirt, no.
ME: Do you think they've burned them at this point?
THEM: Uh, they should. I would.
ME: So you read the interview, but I know you're not on social media.
THEM: I have an account. I just never check it.
ME: Did someone send you the interview?
THEM: They told me to go online and check it out.
ME: What was your reaction?
THEM: I knew about, uh, the bullying. There was--I knew about it.
ME: And you saw the comments involving you?
THEM: You mean--
ME: I mean the comments posted on the link to the interview. Where people were saying--
THEM: Oh right.
ME: --Why weren't they going after the director?
THEM: Yes.
ME: So...why didn't they go after you?
THEM: I mean, they might have. I'm sure they did, privately. I never received any, uh, official push-back from them, but that's not really their style.
ME: So none of them made it known to you that they were unhappy with your casting decision?
THEM: No. Not that it would have mattered.
ME: You wouldn't have cared?
THEM: No.
ME: Have you dealt with them before?
THEM: Uh, I've worked with a few of them before, yes.
ME: Were you aware that one of them wanted the lead?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Did you expect there to be a negative response when they--
THEM: Oh, yes.
ME: So that's happened before?
THEM: Not, um, where I was in the position of being the director, no. But, in general, whenever one of them doesn't get what they want, it usually turns into a, uh...
ME: A thing?
THEM: (Laughs.) A thing. Yes.
ME: What did you do when you saw that this girl was being bullied?
THEM: Well, the reason I wanted to talk to you was--I did do something. I know people were saying I should have--and I did.
ME: I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear in the interview with--
THEM: No, it's okay. You didn't make it seem like I didn't. People were--Okay, so let me be clear about a few things. I'm directing at this theater--where all this is taking place. I am not on the board at that theater. I am not on staff. I'm coming into it as, uh, someone in the community, but not--this just happened to be a show I was directing. Um. In terms of authority at the theater? I have about as much as anybody else coming in from the outside.
ME: And you're saying that to mean--
THEM: Just to say that, I had no way to, uh, officially respond to these people, when I saw what they were doing, and I thought that was what was needed.
ME: An official response?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Did you ask the theater for one?
THEM: I did.
ME: What did they say?
THEM: Well. (Laughs.) Sorry, it's just--First they said, um, basically--What are we supposed to do? They're not in the show you've just cast. They're just, uh, people online saying mean things. What are we supposed to do?
ME: And what did you say to that?
THEM: I said, uh, that they were people who had worked at the theater in the past. That they were people everybody in the community knew. That they were, uh, attacking a production. My production. The production at this theater--not just this young girl who had done nothing wrong. The, uh--
ME: Who were you speaking to about all of this?
THEM: The board.
ME: Okay.
THEM: And they felt like--Well, let's not get down in the mud with them. Let's not--if we get into it with them, we're only going to make things worse.
ME: I can understand that.
THEM: So do I. But I said, um, 'Okay, let's message them privately.' We have to deal with this. I did want to deal with it in some way.
ME: And what was the response to that?
THEM: It was--You know, it was--This is all social media. Nobody should be on social media. It's a problem. We can't really do anything.
ME: I like that when stuff goes down on social media, people act like maybe if we don't pay attention to Facebook, it'll just cease to exist. You have to deal with it.
THEM: You do, and uh, I can't--I mean, I can't really say anything, because I do take the approach of just--I don't deal with it. Usually. I ignore it. But I could see that this was--This was not okay.
ME: So the board just didn't know what to do?
THEM: That's what they were saying. And my last suggestion was--Why don't we put something together saying we, uh, won't work with them in the future? That there could be some kind of--
ME: A ban?
THEM: I don't want to say a ban, but, you know--
ME: Bench them for awhile?
THEM: Yeah, just--Something that says 'There are consequences to this. To what you're doing.' To do something, you know? I wanted to see something done. I did speak to (the teenager) and I made sure to let her know that these people were wrong. That their actions were wrong. Are wrong. And that I was very confident in my decision to cast her. That I felt good about it, and that she shouldn't let any of this bother her. But I know that's--She's very young. It's, uh, understandable that she's upset. I would be upset too. I was upset.
ME: What did the board say about your suggestion to bench them?
THEM: They--They didn't get back to me.
ME: So they didn't want to do it?
THEM: Uh, I think--I think that idea made them uncomfortable.
ME: Why?
THEM: I think it ties back into--You know, something you said in one of your--in the comments section of one of your posts--about mess and getting messy. That, uh, sometimes you have to do that. I think people who want to, uh, cause trouble can present you with that as a way to get you to back down. It's 'If you want to fire back at me, you're going to get messy and you don't want that so just sit down and shut up.' So you have to get into it with them. There's no other way. If you get messy, you get messy. What choice do you have?
ME: I love that you just justified me being messy.
THEM: (Laughs.) But I'm glad you got messy and I didn't have to get messy.
ME: You didn't respond to them?
THEM: Well it was--I posted something. On Facebook. On my profile. I couldn't respond directly to their comments and the bullying because they all blocked me.
ME: Mature.
THEM: Right? But I did say my peace.
ME: People on my Facebook are wondering why--or if there's been--more of a community outcry about this behavior?
THEM: Uh, people have spoken out, yes. But not the people that--Let me put it to you this way--The people--The theaters, I should say, and the people who run them--who have worked with these people regularly and who, uh, have--enabled, I guess, is the word--Those people have not spoken out.
ME: Why do you think that is?
THEM: I--Hmmm.
(A beat.)
ME: You don't have to answer that.
THEM: No, uh--Well, I know that the--I know that some people feel that they sell tickets.
ME: The Dream Team?
THEM: Yes, that--
ME: Do they sell tickets?
THEM: I wouldn't know. I don't look at box office reports. Um, honestly? I don't care if they do. I don't think that should be a deciding factor in working with people who bully children. Who bully anybody, really. With every day that goes by, if you haven't said anything--We're all now in a position where you have to have a response. Saying nothing is a response. Staying out of it is a response. You have to say something. There's no other choice. That's how I feel about it. And I think staying out of it to see who kind of--wins? That speaks volumes. It really does.
ME: Theater people are very good at that.
THEM: At what?
ME: Waiting to see who wins.
THEM: (Laughs.) That's, uh--yes.
ME: Does this theater have an Artistic Director?
THEM: It does.
ME: What do they have to say about all this?
THEM: (Laughs.) Now I'm going to get in trouble.
ME: Do it.
THEM: Uh...Okay. I don't know what their position on it is. They haven't said anything, but, uh, I do know that their son is, uh, dating someone with one of those t-shirts.
ME: And there we have it.
THEM: It's a small world.
ME: Are people scared of them because they operate as a group?
THEM: Oh, yes. Yes, that's--that's definitely part of it.
ME: Has any of this--these interviews--kind of--helped with that?
THEM: Yes. I think so. I think this has really been a wake-up call. No community wants to be at the receiving end of, uh, this kind of attention.
ME: People want to know where you all live.
THEM: It's not far from you.
ME: For Rhode Island, it's far.
THEM: (Laughs.) I used to live in Providence.
ME: Everybody used to live in Providence.
THEM: I lived off Broad Street for a few years.
ME: Did you do theater here?
THEM: No, I had newborn twins at the time. I didn't see much of Rhode Island.
ME: Do you think people should know who these people are? Their names?
THEM: I think for your sake--I'm assuming you have legal reasons for not naming them?
ME: That's part of it.
THEM: That's what I thought.
ME: It's also just like--What will that get you? Knowing who they are? None of you are going to work with them. I mean, none of the people in my area, so--What difference does it make? Does it make you feel better to know that you don't know them? Because, no matter who you are, you know people like them. There are people--in every community--
THEM: Yes.
ME: --That act like this. That do stuff like this. These people just have t-shirts. So instead of spending time trying to figure out who they are, go ferret out the people in your own community pulling this bulls*** and stop liking their f***ing statuses on Facebook.
THEM: Did I get you upset?
ME: It just--It nags at me. I get the curiosity, but I think it's really just a way to--I mean, I think it's a way to make people feel better. It's like when someone is murdered and the news says 'Well, they left their door unlocked' or 'They did this thing wrong and as long as you don't do it, you'll be fine.'
THEM: It makes people feel better.
ME: They want to place a face to the behavior.
THEM: Well, we're not that hard to find.
ME: Yeah, I'm surprised it's taken people this long.
THEM: I think it's about hiding in plain sight.
ME: Do you think you'll be in a situation where you have to work with any of them again?
THEM: I won't cast any of them.
ME: Even after the apologies?
THEM: (Laughs.) That was great.
ME: People still wanted me to drag them.
THEM: I think it's good you didn't.
ME: Well, I also only had dirt on four of them, but I waited until I got all six apologies to say that.
THEM: (Laughs.) You're too much.
ME: I just wanted two of them to sweat.
THEM: How good was the dirt?
ME: It was pretty good dirt.
THEM: That people sent to you?
ME: I had a full inbox after that first interview dropped.
THEM: I got some dirt I could give you.
ME: Oh yeah?
THEM: Off the record.
ME: Sure.
THEM: We'll talk when we're done with this.
ME: Do you think they should have the opportunity to come back from this?
THEM: I think when they post real apologies that don't invoke Jesus and when--When they realize--It's hard to talk about coming back, because they just left. I'm not even sure they've left. And they--What we're learning from all of this is that they deprived people of opportunities. So--nobody's asking when those people get to have their comeback, right?
ME: It ties into what people say about #MeToo--
THEM: Yes. Let's talk about every single woman who's--or in this case men and women--who have been affected by them getting theirs back, and then we'll talk about some kind of, uh, chance to make it up to those people, but--I don't know why that would be the first question anybody asks.
ME: Because I think everyone feels like they've done wrong in their life and they identify more with the perpetrator than the victim--most of the time.
THEM: Until you're the victim.
ME: Right, until you're the victim.
THEM: I don't know how we deal with people like this in a way that--I don't know the right way. If there is a right way. We're talking about--this is all--very few of us do this for a living. Usually if it's for money, it's for, uh, very little money, and, uh--So what do you have to hold against people? Their reputation? Who cares about a reputation anymore? Look who the President is. Nobody cares how you talk about them, or how you talk about what they've done. Maybe they don't like being, uh, you know, uncool or--the subject of people online saying mean things about them, but for every person who feels one way, there's a person who feels another way, so--It's very confusing to me. It's why I can see why people would rather--like how I do it--I'm just going to close my eyes.
ME: But while you're closing your eyes, they're still out there.
THEM: That's the tough part. That's, um--Yeah, that's tough.
Them is a director.
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