Theater and Kool-Aid Culture

The person I'm interviewing this week was referred to me by another interview subject.  As we were finishing up our phone call, that person said--

Hey, did you hear about what happened with--?

I had not.

That's all I'll say for now.

Here's the interview:

ME:  I'm trying to think of how to ask you about your situation without giving away too many clues.

THEM:  You must have that problem a lot.

ME:  Uh, some are harder than others.  You--worked at a theater in an artistic capacity.

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  And a few months ago, you were interviewed and--was it about the theater or your work at the theater or--?

THEM:  It was about my work in general.  It didn't directly relate to the theater, but the theater came up.

ME:  And you said--?

THEM:  I said, in response to a question about the theater's season, that I wasn't a fan.

ME:  Of the season, not the theater?

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  And what happened?

THEM:  When the interview came out, I was called in to speak with the Artistic Director, the Executive Director, and the General Manager of the theater, and I was asked to rescind my statement.

ME:  And what did you say?

THEM:  I said I would clarify my statement, but that I wouldn't rescind it.

ME:  What kind of clarification were you willing to give?

THEM:  I was willing to say--even though I had already been pretty clear--that obviously I'm a fan of the theater I work at.  I'm proud of what we do.  I've--I had been there for almost ten years.  I...I simply wasn't a fan of that--of the season we were about to do, and uh, that wasn't unusual.  There were other seasons--ones we'd done in the past--that I wasn't a fan of either.

ME:  But this was your first time saying that publicly?

THEM:  Yes.

ME  And you didn't think there'd be blow-back?

THEM:  It might be fair to say--that I didn't really care?  I'm not, um--I'm an artist.  I'm a theater artist.  I'm not going to watch what I say in terms of what I like and what I don't like.  I shouldn't have to.  I wasn't saying that the plays we're doing this season--or that they're doing this season--are bad plays.  They're just not my kind of--they're not my thing.  That's all.

ME:  Which, I think, is a fair way to critique something.

THEM:  I think so too.

ME:  Were the AD and the other people you mentioned satisfied with the idea of you--

THEM:  No.  They wanted it fully rescinded.

ME:  The statement in the interview?

THEM:  Yes.  It was half a line, really.  That's why I thought the whole thing was so crazy.

ME:  And what did they say when you told them you wouldn't rescind it?

THEM:  They thanked me for meeting with them and the next day I got a phone call from the Artistic Director--my friend of--since before we both started working at the theater--who happens to be my daughter's godfather--and, uh, he told me that they didn't feel it was a good idea to have me be, uh, I forget the wording exactly, but that it was time I moved on.  That we parted ways.

ME:  Were you surprised?

THEM:  Very.  I knew there'd be--I knew there'd be a response, but I didn't think it would be that.  Not after all these years.

ME:  Did you have a conversation with the AD or with anyone else at the theater about--why it would seem like you fully supporting an entire season's worth of shows would be mandatory?  Like, is that written down somewhere or--

THEM:  I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.  In some ways, it's common sense, isn't it?  If you work at Pepsi, you don't s***-talk Pepsi.  But--we don't work at Pepsi.  We're artists.  The work we do is--we charge people to see it sometimes, but--this is really--this seems to me like really thinking of the work as a product and only a product.

ME:  Is that how they saw it?

THEM:  They said that there was a better way I could have said what I said.  I asked them what that way was, and where we landed was--That I shouldn't have said anything at all.  And I had a real problem with that.

ME:  I would too.

THEM: I said to (The Artistic Director), 'Have you liked every play we've ever done here?  Would you feel uncomfortable admitting that there have been shows we've done here that you haven't liked?'

ME:  What did he say?

THEM:  He said he wouldn't go on record about any of them.  Then (The Executive Director) chimed in and said 'We need to be a united front.  Times are hard.  This could impact ticket sales.'

ME:  Do you think it could?

THEM:  Uh...I doubt it.  If someone wants to see (Title of a Play) I think they're going to see it and I don't think they're going to care what somebody like me has to say about it.  These shows hadn't even happened yet, so I wasn't saying 'The productions are bad' or that they're going to be bad.  I was talking about the plays themselves.

ME:  And saying they're not to your liking.

THEM:  Yes.  Which makes me sound like a snob I know, but--

ME:  But you're entitled to your opinion.

THEM:  Apparently I'm not.

ME:  What was the reaction like in your community when this happened?  I couldn't find anything written on it in the press.

THEM:  Yeah, it never really got to that point.  I--I didn't want to harm the theater by making a big deal out of it.  It was my understanding that the board was upset.  (The AD)'s hands were tied.  And I don't think there's no other way to look at the situation than that I'm right and they're wrong.  I'm just, uh, disturbed by the implications of the other side.

ME:  That you have to be unconditionally devoted to the organization you work for with--

THEM:  Yes, and--I don't know how that helps grow an organization.  I find--I've had audience members reach out to me since all this happened and say--Thank you for saying that.  Not because they necessarily agree with me, but because they like hearing an artist talk like a real person.

ME:  You've heard me rail against talking points in theater.

THEM:  Yes.  I read that.  Thank you.  I agree.  We should not all be sounding the same and--and our opinions about our work should not all be the same.  Maybe even--maybe even especially about our own work.

ME:  Have you gone on the Facebook page of any larger-sized theater lately?

THEM:  I have not.

ME:  So, anytime somebody--an audience member, or whoever--critiques anything the theater does, the standard practice seems to be to respond with one of those generic, robotic responses of 'We're so sorry you feel that way.'

THEM:  That's pathetic.

ME:  It just--To me, it's like, why are we doing all this work to engage with people, and here they are, trying to engage--granted on social media, but still--and we're giving them robot feedback instead of saying, 'Okay, well, let me push back on that' or even 'I agree with you.'

THEM:  That would be refreshing.  I still remember one of our actors being in a play she didn't think was very good--she was right, by the way--and during a talkback an audience member asked her if she liked the play she'd just done, and she said, 'Not really, no' and the audience burst into applause.  They loved it.  They loved the honesty.  It felt real to them.

ME:  Nobody was playing 'The Emperor's New Clothes' with them.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  They'd just seen something bad, and somebody said, 'You're right.  It was bad.'  They felt vindicated.

ME:  Because why would we try to gaslight our audience?

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  And that's sort of what the higher ups were defending in that meeting with you, right?

THEM:  I--You know, if you mess with season subscriptions, it's--it can be a very serious thing.  And I get them saying, 'How about we give these shows a chance before we take shots at them?'  I get that.  But I don't think the response was in line with the, uh, perceived offense.

ME:  I think it could have been a great opportunity to talk more about the season.

THEM:  That's what I--the Artistic Director and I could have done point-counterpoint.

ME:  That would be really interesting.  But if you're too convincing, maybe you convince some people not to buy tickets.

THEM:  And maybe then we learn more about our audience, which I'm told, is very--that information is very valuable, right?

ME:  Oh, definitely.

THEM:  But there are people who agree with the decision.

ME:  Have you spoken to them?

THEM:  A few of them.

ME:  What have they said?

THEM:  That, um, it was unnecessary.  What I said.  That it was unhelpful.

ME:  Do you wish you could take it back?

THEM:  No.  Not at all.

ME:  Have other people spoken out?

THEM:  One or two have quit actually.  They see this as censorship.

ME:  Is that how you see it?

THEM:  Uh--Yes.

ME:  And the theater doesn't see it that way?

THEM:  They see it as disparaging the work the theater does, and, uh, it was sort of suggested that, Well, if I hate what we do so much, why don't I just leave?

ME:  That sounds eerily like, If you don't like America...

THEM:  You know, it does, doesn't it?

ME:  (Laughs.)  Wow.

THEM:  Yeah, wow.

ME:  Do you miss the theater you worked at?

THEM:  Very much.  I miss the people.

ME:  Even the ones who terminated you?

THEM:  Yes--(The AD) especially.  Yes.  I miss him.  He's a good guy.

ME:  You seem very relaxed about all of this.

THEM:  I don't--To be honest, I'm still not sure what to make of it.  It's--very strange.  And it worries me.  That this happened.  Not just for myself, but--For how it indicates things are going.  The way we're going.  It worries me.

ME:  It worries me too.

THEM:  I think it should.

Them has recently decided to move to a new state and see what happens next.