This week, I wanted to talk about jealousy.
Primarily, my own.
I asked a few friends who they thought would be a good person to talk to about professional envy, and they said--Your therapist.
Then, one of them connected me to our Them of the Week. An actor from Los Angeles who mostly works in film, but spent a long time in the theater trenches.
Here's the interview:
ME: I wanted to talk to you about envy.
THEM: Because I live in LA?
ME: I don't know. We have a mutual friend who said that you'd be the person to talk to about feeling envious about other people and their successes.
THEM: Is that a problem for you?
ME: Oh, it's a huge problem. It's my worst quality. Well, one of them.
THEM: I think our friend wanted us to talk, because I was very hung up on that when I was your age.
ME: Why?
THEM: I was living in New York. Doing the audition thing. The hustle. Busting my a** all over town. The running joke was I was everybody's lucky charm. I knew everybody who was working, but me. All I had to do was look at somebody and they'd book a commercial. There was a year where--and I'm serious about this now--I was the only person in my group of friends--I had a really close group of friends at the time, about seven or eight people--and every one of them was on a tv show, doing movies, on Broadway--and I was the only one not working.
ME: Why do you think that was?
THEM: Because I sucked. (Laughs.) I don't know. I still don't know. But that was a tough year.
ME: Were you able to feel happy for your friends?
THEM: No. I tried to. I did try. I prayed on it. I wasn't--I wasn't...I figured out a way to be happy for them and still allowed myself to feel what it was I was feeling, which was...This anger that it wasn't happening for me. It was a lot of anger.
ME: How did you get past it?
THEM: I don't believe in luck, but I believe in things being fated. I met an acting teacher. Great teacher. Great lady. First thing she says to me when I walk into her class--You wanna be famous or you want to make art? She saw me right as I was standing there--what my bulls*** was. She saw it. I tried to say I want to make art and she goes You're full of s***. I said Okay, this lady is crazy, but I want to hear what she has to say. I tell her What's wrong with wanting to be famous? and she says to me We're going to find out. Her whole class was--It was a lot more than teaching you how to act. It was always saying Why are you doing this? What makes you want to do this? You want to get paid? You want to ride in limousines? What do you want? She got me to...She got me to a place where I didn't want any of that. I wanted to find pride in my work as much as I could. I still needed to pay my bills. I still needed to eat. But she was constantly coming at you with Why do you want to be in that play? What's that movie mean to you?
ME: I ask that a lot when I work with actors now as a director--why they're doing the project they're doing. And I ask myself that a lot too.
THEM: You have to ask that. People don't, and you have to. Why you standing in line for three years trying to audition for something you don't even like? That doesn't mean anything to you? Because you got bills due? All right. Are you standing in that line because the director's a big-shot and it's going to be on Broadway and you want to go home and tell your friends what a star you are--why are you doing all that? What's all that going to mean to you? I'm going to tell you a story--one of my friends--a dear friend, a good person--from back when I wasn't doing s*** and everybody around me was cashing checks--One of those friends who was on Broadway? They killed themselves two years later.
ME: Oh my God.
THEM: So unhappy, because they got there. They got there--had a good part too, got good write-ups--they got there and then what? They didn't know what to do. They didn't know what was going to--Should they try tv? Should they try movies? When was it going to be enough? That was so hard for them to think--It might never be enough. That thought broke that poor heart. You got something in you that's not fulfilled and you're trying to fill it with people clapping for you? We all do that. You got to work that s*** out.
ME: When did you move to LA?
THEM: I came out here for a job a few years back and I've been out here ever since.
ME: Do you feel like you're doing projects that mean something to you?
THEM: When I can, yes. The important thing is--It's got nothing to do with fame for me. I do something and I'm proud of it? I tell people about it. It's not coming from a place of me trying to brag. All these people now say they're promoting--they're bragging. You can tell.
ME: How can you tell?
THEM: It's where their spirit is coming from. You can drop a link to something you're doing and say Look at this thing I'm in if you care to or you can post photos from some twenty-dollar set you're working on--and I've worked on them, I'm working on one now--like you're a movie star. People think if they act famous, they're going to get famous. It doesn't work that way. It's not a vision board. You have to divorce yourself from that addiction you have to wanting fame, because all fame is--and this is what my teacher taught me all those years ago--it's wanting love. It's wanting validation. The rude part is--I know famous people and when they got where they were going, there was no love there. There was no validation. That's where you wind up broken.
ME: You talk about an addiction to wanting fame--
THEM: Is that what you have?
ME: Probably.
THEM: How do you know?
ME: Uh, I always talk with friends about 'Did you see this person got cast in this?' 'Did you see this person is doing that?' And that's the stuff that always bothers me, because I feel like I should be doing better.
THEM: What does better mean to you? Ask yourself what's going to fill up your heart, Kevin. It's not going to be--You can sell out an arena if you want to, but once you got all those people in front of you, if you don't know what the message is? If you don't know what you're trying to say to all those people? It won't matter. It's just going to be you saying 'Now what?'
ME: Isn't removing yourself from fixating on fame hard in a place like LA?
THEM: Very hard. I'm not all worked through. That's not what I'm saying. You said 'That stuff bothers me' but break down every one of those words. What stuff? Why is it bothering you? What does it mean for you to be bothered by something? You get sad about it?
ME: A little, yeah.
THEM: That sadness you feel? That could be a dissatisfaction in your own work.
ME: Or if you're doing good work and you feel like it's not reaching enough people.
THEM: But the reach is out of your control.
ME: Tell that to the marketing person I turn into every day at peak social media time.
THEM: Let me ask you something: Do you believe there's only so much success to go around?
ME: Logically I do not believe that, but emotionally--
THEM: You can't be happy when someone else--
ME: It depends on who it is.
THEM: It's never going to be the people you think deserve it.
ME: Oh, I know that.
THEM: (Laughs.) You're going to see some people you don't like do well then you're going to do well then who knows? It's going to go up and down, Kevin.
ME: I will say that it bothers me that it bothers me, and that's one of the reasons I go, Maybe I should just step away from the whole thing.
THEM: You mean to tell me you're going to quit just because you can't handle somebody else having a good day?
ME: I--
THEM: You need to do some work on yourself.
ME: Believe me, I know.
THEM: There is something in this--in doing this, this work, this work we are privileged to do--that appeals to you. It might be the right thing. It might be the wrong thing. You got to figure out which one it is. I think you do have something in you that's suited to this, but you got to stop chasing love from strangers, because it's not there. It's not going to be there no matter what.
ME: What about respect and admiration?
THEM: You want respect and admiration from people you don't even know?
ME: And from people I do know.
THEM: Then build houses for homeless people. You know what to do to make people love and admire you. Don't act like you don't. But see that s*** is hard work, so you want to get up onstage and play make believe and then have everybody kiss your a** and tell you how cute you are. Can't have that, Kevin. Not that way. Find a deeper reason for getting up there. Find a deeper reason for wanting to share this gift you have. I live in the most shallow city on earth and every day I get up and say 'What can I do to just make sure somebody else has another human being look them in the eye and connect with them today?' Some days that's all I can do. We could all be dead tomorrow and you're worrying about whether two hundred people you don't know thought a photo of you looked cute? I can't get on-board with that.
ME: I was telling someone the other day that I have a friend who booked a movie awhile back, and it was supposed to be this--this pretty big deal of a movie--and for whatever reason, it came out and it just...didn't go anywhere. Nobody really noticed it, because there are all these movies, and all these tv shows, and I thought, Oh my god, that's what's going to happen. I'm going to finally get a movie or a tv show and it won't matter, because we've reached peak content saturation and now if you're not a lead on Game of Thrones nobody cares.
THEM: Then let it go. You hear what I'm saying to you? Let all that go. Because you holding onto it has no affect on it. So let it go. That's what I had to hear. That's what I heard all those years ago, but I couldn't take it in and process it in that moment. Let it go. Do you work. You find a project that makes you go I believe in this you fight to be involved with that, but you see all these fools trying to get a little attention? Just pass it by. That's what I would say to you.
ME: Thank you for talking with me.
THEM: You're going to be all right.
ME: You think so?
THEM: What the f*** do I know about it, but--
ME: (Laughs.) But I'll try to do better.
THEM: See now, that's a lot of bulls***. Just do it.
Them currently lives in LA and has no time for your bulls***.
Primarily, my own.
I asked a few friends who they thought would be a good person to talk to about professional envy, and they said--Your therapist.
Then, one of them connected me to our Them of the Week. An actor from Los Angeles who mostly works in film, but spent a long time in the theater trenches.
Here's the interview:
ME: I wanted to talk to you about envy.
THEM: Because I live in LA?
ME: I don't know. We have a mutual friend who said that you'd be the person to talk to about feeling envious about other people and their successes.
THEM: Is that a problem for you?
ME: Oh, it's a huge problem. It's my worst quality. Well, one of them.
THEM: I think our friend wanted us to talk, because I was very hung up on that when I was your age.
ME: Why?
THEM: I was living in New York. Doing the audition thing. The hustle. Busting my a** all over town. The running joke was I was everybody's lucky charm. I knew everybody who was working, but me. All I had to do was look at somebody and they'd book a commercial. There was a year where--and I'm serious about this now--I was the only person in my group of friends--I had a really close group of friends at the time, about seven or eight people--and every one of them was on a tv show, doing movies, on Broadway--and I was the only one not working.
ME: Why do you think that was?
THEM: Because I sucked. (Laughs.) I don't know. I still don't know. But that was a tough year.
ME: Were you able to feel happy for your friends?
THEM: No. I tried to. I did try. I prayed on it. I wasn't--I wasn't...I figured out a way to be happy for them and still allowed myself to feel what it was I was feeling, which was...This anger that it wasn't happening for me. It was a lot of anger.
ME: How did you get past it?
THEM: I don't believe in luck, but I believe in things being fated. I met an acting teacher. Great teacher. Great lady. First thing she says to me when I walk into her class--You wanna be famous or you want to make art? She saw me right as I was standing there--what my bulls*** was. She saw it. I tried to say I want to make art and she goes You're full of s***. I said Okay, this lady is crazy, but I want to hear what she has to say. I tell her What's wrong with wanting to be famous? and she says to me We're going to find out. Her whole class was--It was a lot more than teaching you how to act. It was always saying Why are you doing this? What makes you want to do this? You want to get paid? You want to ride in limousines? What do you want? She got me to...She got me to a place where I didn't want any of that. I wanted to find pride in my work as much as I could. I still needed to pay my bills. I still needed to eat. But she was constantly coming at you with Why do you want to be in that play? What's that movie mean to you?
ME: I ask that a lot when I work with actors now as a director--why they're doing the project they're doing. And I ask myself that a lot too.
THEM: You have to ask that. People don't, and you have to. Why you standing in line for three years trying to audition for something you don't even like? That doesn't mean anything to you? Because you got bills due? All right. Are you standing in that line because the director's a big-shot and it's going to be on Broadway and you want to go home and tell your friends what a star you are--why are you doing all that? What's all that going to mean to you? I'm going to tell you a story--one of my friends--a dear friend, a good person--from back when I wasn't doing s*** and everybody around me was cashing checks--One of those friends who was on Broadway? They killed themselves two years later.
ME: Oh my God.
THEM: So unhappy, because they got there. They got there--had a good part too, got good write-ups--they got there and then what? They didn't know what to do. They didn't know what was going to--Should they try tv? Should they try movies? When was it going to be enough? That was so hard for them to think--It might never be enough. That thought broke that poor heart. You got something in you that's not fulfilled and you're trying to fill it with people clapping for you? We all do that. You got to work that s*** out.
ME: When did you move to LA?
THEM: I came out here for a job a few years back and I've been out here ever since.
ME: Do you feel like you're doing projects that mean something to you?
THEM: When I can, yes. The important thing is--It's got nothing to do with fame for me. I do something and I'm proud of it? I tell people about it. It's not coming from a place of me trying to brag. All these people now say they're promoting--they're bragging. You can tell.
ME: How can you tell?
THEM: It's where their spirit is coming from. You can drop a link to something you're doing and say Look at this thing I'm in if you care to or you can post photos from some twenty-dollar set you're working on--and I've worked on them, I'm working on one now--like you're a movie star. People think if they act famous, they're going to get famous. It doesn't work that way. It's not a vision board. You have to divorce yourself from that addiction you have to wanting fame, because all fame is--and this is what my teacher taught me all those years ago--it's wanting love. It's wanting validation. The rude part is--I know famous people and when they got where they were going, there was no love there. There was no validation. That's where you wind up broken.
ME: You talk about an addiction to wanting fame--
THEM: Is that what you have?
ME: Probably.
THEM: How do you know?
ME: Uh, I always talk with friends about 'Did you see this person got cast in this?' 'Did you see this person is doing that?' And that's the stuff that always bothers me, because I feel like I should be doing better.
THEM: What does better mean to you? Ask yourself what's going to fill up your heart, Kevin. It's not going to be--You can sell out an arena if you want to, but once you got all those people in front of you, if you don't know what the message is? If you don't know what you're trying to say to all those people? It won't matter. It's just going to be you saying 'Now what?'
ME: Isn't removing yourself from fixating on fame hard in a place like LA?
THEM: Very hard. I'm not all worked through. That's not what I'm saying. You said 'That stuff bothers me' but break down every one of those words. What stuff? Why is it bothering you? What does it mean for you to be bothered by something? You get sad about it?
ME: A little, yeah.
THEM: That sadness you feel? That could be a dissatisfaction in your own work.
ME: Or if you're doing good work and you feel like it's not reaching enough people.
THEM: But the reach is out of your control.
ME: Tell that to the marketing person I turn into every day at peak social media time.
THEM: Let me ask you something: Do you believe there's only so much success to go around?
ME: Logically I do not believe that, but emotionally--
THEM: You can't be happy when someone else--
ME: It depends on who it is.
THEM: It's never going to be the people you think deserve it.
ME: Oh, I know that.
THEM: (Laughs.) You're going to see some people you don't like do well then you're going to do well then who knows? It's going to go up and down, Kevin.
ME: I will say that it bothers me that it bothers me, and that's one of the reasons I go, Maybe I should just step away from the whole thing.
THEM: You mean to tell me you're going to quit just because you can't handle somebody else having a good day?
ME: I--
THEM: You need to do some work on yourself.
ME: Believe me, I know.
THEM: There is something in this--in doing this, this work, this work we are privileged to do--that appeals to you. It might be the right thing. It might be the wrong thing. You got to figure out which one it is. I think you do have something in you that's suited to this, but you got to stop chasing love from strangers, because it's not there. It's not going to be there no matter what.
ME: What about respect and admiration?
THEM: You want respect and admiration from people you don't even know?
ME: And from people I do know.
THEM: Then build houses for homeless people. You know what to do to make people love and admire you. Don't act like you don't. But see that s*** is hard work, so you want to get up onstage and play make believe and then have everybody kiss your a** and tell you how cute you are. Can't have that, Kevin. Not that way. Find a deeper reason for getting up there. Find a deeper reason for wanting to share this gift you have. I live in the most shallow city on earth and every day I get up and say 'What can I do to just make sure somebody else has another human being look them in the eye and connect with them today?' Some days that's all I can do. We could all be dead tomorrow and you're worrying about whether two hundred people you don't know thought a photo of you looked cute? I can't get on-board with that.
ME: I was telling someone the other day that I have a friend who booked a movie awhile back, and it was supposed to be this--this pretty big deal of a movie--and for whatever reason, it came out and it just...didn't go anywhere. Nobody really noticed it, because there are all these movies, and all these tv shows, and I thought, Oh my god, that's what's going to happen. I'm going to finally get a movie or a tv show and it won't matter, because we've reached peak content saturation and now if you're not a lead on Game of Thrones nobody cares.
THEM: Then let it go. You hear what I'm saying to you? Let all that go. Because you holding onto it has no affect on it. So let it go. That's what I had to hear. That's what I heard all those years ago, but I couldn't take it in and process it in that moment. Let it go. Do you work. You find a project that makes you go I believe in this you fight to be involved with that, but you see all these fools trying to get a little attention? Just pass it by. That's what I would say to you.
ME: Thank you for talking with me.
THEM: You're going to be all right.
ME: You think so?
THEM: What the f*** do I know about it, but--
ME: (Laughs.) But I'll try to do better.
THEM: See now, that's a lot of bulls***. Just do it.
Them currently lives in LA and has no time for your bulls***.
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