Today's interview is with an actor.
THEM: If I had known that him dying was going to mean that now he's a saint, I would have nursed him back to health myself.
And a dead man.
THEM: I can't say any of this publicly. None of it.
Here's the interview:
ME: When did he die?
THEM: Last year. March of last year.
ME: What was the state of his career at that point?
THEM: It seemed like there might be some justice coming. People were wising up to who he was.
ME: Who was he?
THEM: He was a predator. It's very simple. He would target people like me. He would make all your dreams come true and then he would dump you by the side of the road and move onto the next person.
ME: Did he have his own company?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Does that company still exist?
THEM: Yes. They just named the theater after him.
ME: The theater?
THEM: The space--the actual theater. They didn't change the name of the company. It's still [Name], but when you walk in there's this big golden sign saying you're walking into the [Name] Theater. I was like, 'F*** me' the first time I saw it.
ME: You said before he passed away people were starting to wise up to what he was doing?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Let's go back. I want to be clear about what you say he would do. He would target people?
THEM: He would target young actors.
ME: How young?
THEM: Usually right out of college.
ME: Okay, so not--
THEM: Not kids, no, but always right out of college. Always these really, um, these--
ME: You can still call them kids. I just waned to make sure we made it clear that they weren't legally kids.
THEM: They weren't kids, yeah, but they were young, and they were very eager to, you know, make a name for themselves and he would--He would go to college shows and take notes on them.
ME: On the ones he wanted to reach out to later?
THEM: Wasn't always later either. He would start--it was a grooming process. He would reach out to them and then when they graduated, that's when it would start.
ME: What would start?
THEM: They'd be his--you know, we used to call them muses. He'd cast them in everything. Every show. That would last for--I think the longest was with [Name] and that was three years. Then he'd find someone new.
ME: Would he have relationships with any of these people?
THEM: Not that I know of.
ME: And what would happen after your time was up?
THEM: You'd be f***ed. Because then you'd be--People didn't like him. He was--He was really known for being very difficult. He was aggressive. He was--He had an inner circle that was very loyal to him, but outside of that, he was not somebody that people really took to. If you were known as being one of his loyalists, you weren't getting work after he was done with you.
ME: Even though, at that point, you'd been cut off?
THEM: Yes. Because I think people liked to see it. This is--what I'm saying is an indictment of everyone else as much as it is an indictment of him. Taking all this enjoyment in watching these kids get seduced by him and then--
ME: I need to take issue with the word seduced.
THEM: A seduction doesn't have to end in sex.
ME: That's right. You're right. I just don't want to--
THEM: I don't think he was stupid. I think he knew exactly what we let people get away with, and as long as I don't put my hands on you and I don't send you naked photos and I don't talk to you sexually, then nobody can touch me. He knew that. But notwithstanding that, you can still do real damage to a person with the right set of circumstances.
ME: Because people are jealous of you when you're the golden one and then when you're not, it's hard not to feel--
THEM: They love it. They love watching people fall from the pedestal even when those people are still in their early twenties.
ME: How would he cut them off?
THEM: That was the part that...
(Silence.)
ME: I think we have to say that this happened to you too. You said you were okay with me mentioning that, right?
THEM: Yeah. I thought you'd put it in, like, the description of who I am.
ME: I can do that too, but--
THEM: However--however you want to do it.
ME: So how did he cut you off?
THEM: He...It had been two years. We talked about doing [Title of Play] together with me as [Character Name]. I don't hear anything. I don't think anything of it. I call him and he's not returning my calls.
ME: That was unusual?
THEM: Very unusual for him. He'd call me two or three times a day. Then nothing. I went to the theater to see [Title of Play] and when I asked if he was around, people gave me this look. That was how I knew.
ME: From the looks they were giving you?
THEM: Because I'd seen those looks before.
ME: So what happens next?
THEM: I send him an email asking if I had done anything wrong. He emails me back and says that he just wants to take a little break, because we've been working so closely together for so long. He wants some space. I say that's fine. Two months later, I see the press release for the show, the one I was supposed to be in, with [Actor's Name] in it playing the role we had talked about.
ME: Did you email him again?
THEM: I did.
ME: And?
THEM: No response.
ME: Technically none of that is illegal. It makes him a dick, but it's not illegal.
THEM: Do you only do interviews about criminals or can somebody just be a dick?
ME: I just wanted to--I know people read these sometimes and they go, 'Well that's bad, but it's not a crime.'
THEM: Like I said before, or not this way, I didn't say it this way, but--predators are getting smarter. They're not all going to be the guy in the van who kidnaps you. I was not able to get work after this. I ended up moving. Then I came back because it wasn't--there were reasons I had to come back.
ME: And--I know you said this before, but--a lot of that is the community and not just him.
THEM: Yes.
ME: It's interesting to me that people didn't like him, but once you were done with him, they're still not all that keen on you either.
THEM: You get blamed for everything. You get blamed for being sucked in. You get blamed for every time you defended him--and you had to defend him a lot. You get a lot of 'I told you so's' because when people bring up that he's done this to other people, you act like it won't be the same with you, and then when it is, that's when everybody does their little happy dance, because you thought you were so much smarter than everyone else.
ME: You're describing being in your early twenties.
THEM: (Laughs.) Being in your early twenties and having somebody say to you 'You're so talented. You're so great' and other people are saying, 'He's lying. That's not true.' They don't see how those two things connect to equal 'So I'm not talented. I'm s***. I'm stupid because I'm not talented and I should know that and I can't tell I'm being manipulated.'
ME: It's just easier to believe in him.
THEM: It is. Then when everybody ends up being right, you want to crawl into a hole, because you feel ten times stupider and less talented than you ever did.
ME: And then he dies.
THEM: Yes.
ME: Were you glad?
THEM: I wasn't. No. I didn't want that. I wanted him to take responsibility for how he treated people. I wanted him to change.
ME: And things were going in that direction?
THEM: I wouldn't say that. This is a different time now. People have had enough. More and more stories started coming out that were like mine. I wrote this big thing and posted it online--about my experience with him. People were talking about boycotting his theater.
ME: Then what?
THEM: Then I get a phone call telling me that he had died. It was unexpected.
ME: Since we can't talk about how he died without risking revealing his identity, I just wanted to say that he did not take his own life.
THEM: He didn't. No.
ME: What happens after you get the news?
THEM: I was in shock. I really--I really felt like this thing that I had never gotten closure with was...I was never going to get that closure.
ME: And then what?
THEM: Then--almost immediately--he became a saint. It was like--overnight. People posting all these stories about--how much he taught them. How funny he was. The chances he gave them. What they owe him. It was...It was like he orchestrated it. It couldn't have been more perfect.
ME: Despite some of the stories that had been coming out?
THEM: All those people shut up. So did I. What could you do? The feeling was--I messaged one of the others, and [they] said, 'It's over. Let people say what they want. He's gone.' I said, 'But they're making him out to be this perfect person who never did anything wrong' and [they] said, 'That's what happens when people die. Just let it go. We're not--We're not going to get anywhere saying mean things about a dead guy.'
ME: Did you think that might be true?
THEM: I...I was like, Yeah, let them say nice things about him and then I'll never have to hear about him again. Then they named that theater after him and I was like, Now he's going to be remembered forever and when I die someday, that'll be it. Nobody's going to remember me. I don't get anything written about me. I don't even get it recorded anywhere that this guy messaged me when I was nineteen telling me all these nice things about myself and then I'm twenty-four years old and I'm thinking 'F*** maybe I should jump off a bridge and then they'll say nice stuff about me too.'
ME: How are you doing today?
THEM: I'm going to be honest with you, Kevin, it comes and goes. I don't know what to do. I see how it's pointless to try and--and get the record straight about someone who's gone, but I'm just trying to say what's true, and you have other people out here--they're the ones rewriting history, not me. I just want the facts to be the facts. I have emails. So do other people. I have--this was all done out in the open. I could take his best friends defending him and making sure he sounds good. They were going to do that no matter what, but now they're saying he might get this award and they might start a scholarship in his name and this is coming from people who hated him--who knew who he was.
ME: Why are they doing that do you think?
THEM: Because now that he's dead, he's not going to bother them anymore and they can put him to good use. They can make him be whatever they need him to be.
ME: And you think they want to make him a saint?
THEM: I think they want to say we had this great artist working here in our community for all those years because then we're a community that has great artists. They're going to do it all backwards. Now that he's dead, it's lit a fire under the people who liked him and they're saying, 'He deserves recognition' and it's like, Fine, give him a plaque. Put a scholarship in his name. Why not? Who does it hurt? But it does hurt people.
ME: Have you given any thought to waiting a little while and then voicing some of this once he's been gone for longer?
THEM: But by then a lot of this is going to be, like, what do they say, that legal--
ME: Settled law?
THEM: Like that, yeah. The longer you wait, the harder it is to turn some of this perception around and also you look like--'Why are you saying this now?'
ME: It's this catch-22 of 'You can't criticize people after they're dead, but in some cases, they're so powerful when they're alive that they can stop you from criticizing them.'
THEM: Yes.
ME: Why didn't anyone criticize him when he was alive though? Was he powerful?
THEM: It's just made very very clear to you that...that it's a game you won't win. It's not going to end with, 'We're sorry. Let's give you some work.' That's not how it's going to go.
ME: Right.
THEM: I decided that--I called you right after it happened.
ME: You did.
THEM: You said do it with whispers.
ME: Always works.
THEM: You've done it that way before?
ME: So to be clear--
THEM: (Laughs.) I'm outing you now.
ME: It's okay. I told you that sometimes you gotta get messy and sometimes it comes back to bite you, so in a case like this, you're better off just quietly sort of...reclaiming the narrative.
THEM: Just privately messaging people--
ME: Start with the people you like and trust and who gossip the most.
THEM: (Laughs.) I tried that.
ME: How's it going?
THEM: It's--I'm starting to see it make it's way around, and now I can use this--
ME: You certainly can.
THEM: But that plaque isn't going anywhere.
ME: You let me worry about the plaque.
THEM: You think you can get the plaque taken down?
ME: A year ago I would have said 'No,' but I've been having a lot of luck with this kind of thing lately.
THEM: You know, I have no problem with him being remembered for the good things he did do, because he did do some good things, but, I think, we're not at a place where we can handle looking at people, especially dead people, as being good and bad. I would be okay with them saying 'We're honoring him because he did all this good stuff but we also see you and the others and we're not going to forget about that and we don't like that he did that' but nobody's willing to--to--
ME: To let those two things co-exist.
THEM: Yes.
ME: So then you're saying you're comfortable with just labeling him a bad guy?
THEM: I'm not comfortable with any of it. Nothing about this makes me feel comfortable.
Them is an actor.
THEM: If I had known that him dying was going to mean that now he's a saint, I would have nursed him back to health myself.
And a dead man.
THEM: I can't say any of this publicly. None of it.
Here's the interview:
ME: When did he die?
THEM: Last year. March of last year.
ME: What was the state of his career at that point?
THEM: It seemed like there might be some justice coming. People were wising up to who he was.
ME: Who was he?
THEM: He was a predator. It's very simple. He would target people like me. He would make all your dreams come true and then he would dump you by the side of the road and move onto the next person.
ME: Did he have his own company?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Does that company still exist?
THEM: Yes. They just named the theater after him.
ME: The theater?
THEM: The space--the actual theater. They didn't change the name of the company. It's still [Name], but when you walk in there's this big golden sign saying you're walking into the [Name] Theater. I was like, 'F*** me' the first time I saw it.
ME: You said before he passed away people were starting to wise up to what he was doing?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Let's go back. I want to be clear about what you say he would do. He would target people?
THEM: He would target young actors.
ME: How young?
THEM: Usually right out of college.
ME: Okay, so not--
THEM: Not kids, no, but always right out of college. Always these really, um, these--
ME: You can still call them kids. I just waned to make sure we made it clear that they weren't legally kids.
THEM: They weren't kids, yeah, but they were young, and they were very eager to, you know, make a name for themselves and he would--He would go to college shows and take notes on them.
ME: On the ones he wanted to reach out to later?
THEM: Wasn't always later either. He would start--it was a grooming process. He would reach out to them and then when they graduated, that's when it would start.
ME: What would start?
THEM: They'd be his--you know, we used to call them muses. He'd cast them in everything. Every show. That would last for--I think the longest was with [Name] and that was three years. Then he'd find someone new.
ME: Would he have relationships with any of these people?
THEM: Not that I know of.
ME: And what would happen after your time was up?
THEM: You'd be f***ed. Because then you'd be--People didn't like him. He was--He was really known for being very difficult. He was aggressive. He was--He had an inner circle that was very loyal to him, but outside of that, he was not somebody that people really took to. If you were known as being one of his loyalists, you weren't getting work after he was done with you.
ME: Even though, at that point, you'd been cut off?
THEM: Yes. Because I think people liked to see it. This is--what I'm saying is an indictment of everyone else as much as it is an indictment of him. Taking all this enjoyment in watching these kids get seduced by him and then--
ME: I need to take issue with the word seduced.
THEM: A seduction doesn't have to end in sex.
ME: That's right. You're right. I just don't want to--
THEM: I don't think he was stupid. I think he knew exactly what we let people get away with, and as long as I don't put my hands on you and I don't send you naked photos and I don't talk to you sexually, then nobody can touch me. He knew that. But notwithstanding that, you can still do real damage to a person with the right set of circumstances.
ME: Because people are jealous of you when you're the golden one and then when you're not, it's hard not to feel--
THEM: They love it. They love watching people fall from the pedestal even when those people are still in their early twenties.
ME: How would he cut them off?
THEM: That was the part that...
(Silence.)
ME: I think we have to say that this happened to you too. You said you were okay with me mentioning that, right?
THEM: Yeah. I thought you'd put it in, like, the description of who I am.
ME: I can do that too, but--
THEM: However--however you want to do it.
ME: So how did he cut you off?
THEM: He...It had been two years. We talked about doing [Title of Play] together with me as [Character Name]. I don't hear anything. I don't think anything of it. I call him and he's not returning my calls.
ME: That was unusual?
THEM: Very unusual for him. He'd call me two or three times a day. Then nothing. I went to the theater to see [Title of Play] and when I asked if he was around, people gave me this look. That was how I knew.
ME: From the looks they were giving you?
THEM: Because I'd seen those looks before.
ME: So what happens next?
THEM: I send him an email asking if I had done anything wrong. He emails me back and says that he just wants to take a little break, because we've been working so closely together for so long. He wants some space. I say that's fine. Two months later, I see the press release for the show, the one I was supposed to be in, with [Actor's Name] in it playing the role we had talked about.
ME: Did you email him again?
THEM: I did.
ME: And?
THEM: No response.
ME: Technically none of that is illegal. It makes him a dick, but it's not illegal.
THEM: Do you only do interviews about criminals or can somebody just be a dick?
ME: I just wanted to--I know people read these sometimes and they go, 'Well that's bad, but it's not a crime.'
THEM: Like I said before, or not this way, I didn't say it this way, but--predators are getting smarter. They're not all going to be the guy in the van who kidnaps you. I was not able to get work after this. I ended up moving. Then I came back because it wasn't--there were reasons I had to come back.
ME: And--I know you said this before, but--a lot of that is the community and not just him.
THEM: Yes.
ME: It's interesting to me that people didn't like him, but once you were done with him, they're still not all that keen on you either.
THEM: You get blamed for everything. You get blamed for being sucked in. You get blamed for every time you defended him--and you had to defend him a lot. You get a lot of 'I told you so's' because when people bring up that he's done this to other people, you act like it won't be the same with you, and then when it is, that's when everybody does their little happy dance, because you thought you were so much smarter than everyone else.
ME: You're describing being in your early twenties.
THEM: (Laughs.) Being in your early twenties and having somebody say to you 'You're so talented. You're so great' and other people are saying, 'He's lying. That's not true.' They don't see how those two things connect to equal 'So I'm not talented. I'm s***. I'm stupid because I'm not talented and I should know that and I can't tell I'm being manipulated.'
ME: It's just easier to believe in him.
THEM: It is. Then when everybody ends up being right, you want to crawl into a hole, because you feel ten times stupider and less talented than you ever did.
ME: And then he dies.
THEM: Yes.
ME: Were you glad?
THEM: I wasn't. No. I didn't want that. I wanted him to take responsibility for how he treated people. I wanted him to change.
ME: And things were going in that direction?
THEM: I wouldn't say that. This is a different time now. People have had enough. More and more stories started coming out that were like mine. I wrote this big thing and posted it online--about my experience with him. People were talking about boycotting his theater.
ME: Then what?
THEM: Then I get a phone call telling me that he had died. It was unexpected.
ME: Since we can't talk about how he died without risking revealing his identity, I just wanted to say that he did not take his own life.
THEM: He didn't. No.
ME: What happens after you get the news?
THEM: I was in shock. I really--I really felt like this thing that I had never gotten closure with was...I was never going to get that closure.
ME: And then what?
THEM: Then--almost immediately--he became a saint. It was like--overnight. People posting all these stories about--how much he taught them. How funny he was. The chances he gave them. What they owe him. It was...It was like he orchestrated it. It couldn't have been more perfect.
ME: Despite some of the stories that had been coming out?
THEM: All those people shut up. So did I. What could you do? The feeling was--I messaged one of the others, and [they] said, 'It's over. Let people say what they want. He's gone.' I said, 'But they're making him out to be this perfect person who never did anything wrong' and [they] said, 'That's what happens when people die. Just let it go. We're not--We're not going to get anywhere saying mean things about a dead guy.'
ME: Did you think that might be true?
THEM: I...I was like, Yeah, let them say nice things about him and then I'll never have to hear about him again. Then they named that theater after him and I was like, Now he's going to be remembered forever and when I die someday, that'll be it. Nobody's going to remember me. I don't get anything written about me. I don't even get it recorded anywhere that this guy messaged me when I was nineteen telling me all these nice things about myself and then I'm twenty-four years old and I'm thinking 'F*** maybe I should jump off a bridge and then they'll say nice stuff about me too.'
ME: How are you doing today?
THEM: I'm going to be honest with you, Kevin, it comes and goes. I don't know what to do. I see how it's pointless to try and--and get the record straight about someone who's gone, but I'm just trying to say what's true, and you have other people out here--they're the ones rewriting history, not me. I just want the facts to be the facts. I have emails. So do other people. I have--this was all done out in the open. I could take his best friends defending him and making sure he sounds good. They were going to do that no matter what, but now they're saying he might get this award and they might start a scholarship in his name and this is coming from people who hated him--who knew who he was.
ME: Why are they doing that do you think?
THEM: Because now that he's dead, he's not going to bother them anymore and they can put him to good use. They can make him be whatever they need him to be.
ME: And you think they want to make him a saint?
THEM: I think they want to say we had this great artist working here in our community for all those years because then we're a community that has great artists. They're going to do it all backwards. Now that he's dead, it's lit a fire under the people who liked him and they're saying, 'He deserves recognition' and it's like, Fine, give him a plaque. Put a scholarship in his name. Why not? Who does it hurt? But it does hurt people.
ME: Have you given any thought to waiting a little while and then voicing some of this once he's been gone for longer?
THEM: But by then a lot of this is going to be, like, what do they say, that legal--
ME: Settled law?
THEM: Like that, yeah. The longer you wait, the harder it is to turn some of this perception around and also you look like--'Why are you saying this now?'
ME: It's this catch-22 of 'You can't criticize people after they're dead, but in some cases, they're so powerful when they're alive that they can stop you from criticizing them.'
THEM: Yes.
ME: Why didn't anyone criticize him when he was alive though? Was he powerful?
THEM: It's just made very very clear to you that...that it's a game you won't win. It's not going to end with, 'We're sorry. Let's give you some work.' That's not how it's going to go.
ME: Right.
THEM: I decided that--I called you right after it happened.
ME: You did.
THEM: You said do it with whispers.
ME: Always works.
THEM: You've done it that way before?
ME: So to be clear--
THEM: (Laughs.) I'm outing you now.
ME: It's okay. I told you that sometimes you gotta get messy and sometimes it comes back to bite you, so in a case like this, you're better off just quietly sort of...reclaiming the narrative.
THEM: Just privately messaging people--
ME: Start with the people you like and trust and who gossip the most.
THEM: (Laughs.) I tried that.
ME: How's it going?
THEM: It's--I'm starting to see it make it's way around, and now I can use this--
ME: You certainly can.
THEM: But that plaque isn't going anywhere.
ME: You let me worry about the plaque.
THEM: You think you can get the plaque taken down?
ME: A year ago I would have said 'No,' but I've been having a lot of luck with this kind of thing lately.
THEM: You know, I have no problem with him being remembered for the good things he did do, because he did do some good things, but, I think, we're not at a place where we can handle looking at people, especially dead people, as being good and bad. I would be okay with them saying 'We're honoring him because he did all this good stuff but we also see you and the others and we're not going to forget about that and we don't like that he did that' but nobody's willing to--to--
ME: To let those two things co-exist.
THEM: Yes.
ME: So then you're saying you're comfortable with just labeling him a bad guy?
THEM: I'm not comfortable with any of it. Nothing about this makes me feel comfortable.
Them is an actor.
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