This is the time of year when I crawl into a tree house with a stack of plays I'll never get the rights to and pray that somehow I wind up with a season that seems at least mildly interesting.
That's why I thought this week would be the perfect time to publish an interview I did with another Artistic Director who is currently fighting for their season.
Here's the interview:
ME: Was this your first year programming a season?
THEM: As an Artistic Director, yes. I've had input into other seasons. I was the Associate Artistic Director of [Name of Theater] for almost nine years. Then I was asked to come here.
ME: They asked you?
THEM: They asked me to apply so they might--feel differently about me saying I was asked. I was asked to apply. I applied.
ME: And you got the job.
THEM: Yes.
ME: How's it been up to now?
THEM: (Laughs.) You're sure this is anonymous?
ME: Pretty sure.
THEM: It's been a difficult transition for me and for the theater. The previous Artistic Director was here for many years. [They] were very well-liked. I knew I had big shoes to fill. I came in during the second half of the season which was not ideal for many reasons. It was nobody's choice so I'm not trying to lay blame at anyone's feet, but I came in, I made sure we had a very successful second half, and that's what we're in the middle of now.
ME: And now you're looking to do your own thing?
THEM: It's not so much my own thing. I'm looking at the mission of the company and planning a season around that mission and around what I was hired to do.
ME: And what do you feel you were hired to do?
THEM: When I interviewed for this position--and I was fully aware that I was interviewing for it--they asked me what I thought could be improved at the theater. I didn't really know the answer to that, because I'd only been able to do a little bit of my own, uh, looking into the theater. My question to them was 'Do you like the path you're on?' I didn't see any reason for them to say 'No' because they were doing very well, but I put to them the idea that if I were to come in, I'm not sure I could, uh, continue on with the kind of programming they had been selecting, and they were very adamant that they were interested in change. That a change would be a good thing for the company. I assured them that I was not trying to come in--and I assured the staff of this as well at the first company meeting I called--that I was not trying to burn the house down. I wanted to--[Name of Theater] has been around a long time, and I wanted to find a way to honor that history and move forward in a direction that made sense for everyone.
ME: When did you first experience some resistance to that?
THEM: Do you want me to go through the process of choosing the season or would you--
ME: If you'd like to.
THEM: I don't know if it's--I'll say that there was one show that right away I knew I wanted to include--to actually open the season with--and right away it was--there was some resistance to that.
ME: Do you want to say the name of the play?
THEM: I'd better not.
ME: Okay.
THEM: But I just--I remember mentioning it--it was very informal--at this board meeting. The meeting had already been adjourned, and we're just conversing, a few of us, and I mention that I'm thinking of this show to open the season with, and there's this very icy reception from the person I was speaking to, and then I received an email from that same person later that night, saying that I should reconsider. I hadn't made anything official, but they were very--It seems as though I upset them or I--They didn't like the idea of us doing that show and they asked me to think of something else and they tried to make it sound as though it wouldn't be worth even having the show be thought of to open our season.
ME: What was your response?
THEM: I--I didn't know how to respond at first, because it caught me by surprise. I said that I was looking at a lot of titles and that was one of the ones I was excited about, but that a lot could happen between the beginning of a selection process and choosing the season.
ME: Were you planning on pushing back to get that show in the season?
THEM: I was prepared--I pick my battles very wisely. I wasn't going to get upset over one possible show. But when I started--I started putting together more titles and more ideas for what I thought would shape up to be a season, I learned that there was very little interest in the kind of change I had been told the theater was interested in.
ME: There's a lot of talk now about the position a new Artistic Director is in when they join a company with longevity. Do you feel like you've been given a fair shot?
THEM: I think that I was brought on because on paper I'm what the theater wanted to present itself as.
ME: And what's that? Because we talk a lot in these interviews about paper heroes.
THEM: I know, but I don't think you've ever had somebody label themselves a paper hero, right?
ME: No, that's true.
THEM: I--I am an artist of color, okay? I'm a queer artist of color. This is a theater that had a few dust-ups over the years and got itself into some trouble--
ME: I'm getting nervous for you, because you're still employed by them.
THEM: You said anonymous--
ME: (Laughs.) Even anonymously it's like--
THEM: I'm not saying anything that you can't look up. I--I pointed out all this. I said 'I am very much in my own body and experience.' That is to say--You are not going to bring me in and have me produce, uh, The Little Mermaid. You're just not. There's nothing wrong with that story. But that's not my story and I don't know how to tell that story or program that story into a season, because I don't know how that works in conjunction with other stories. I said, 'If that's the story you want to tell, I'm not your guy.' They said I was their guy.
ME: Then where was the disconnect?
THEM: Well, Kevin, there's a pretty big spectrum, right? Between The Little Mermaid and the kinds of shows I want to do. That I want to work on. That I want to see presented at a theater where I'm in charge of shepherding a vision and, uh, putting forward our mission. The question very early on became--Can we meet in the middle? But even then you have a problem because your middle and my middle are going to be very different.
ME: Do you think your values as an individual matched the values of this theater?
THEM: That's a good question.
(Pause.)
THEM: You know. That's a good question. I don't know. I get a good feeling from the people here. I still do. You know, I'm not a young guy. I've seen a lot. I've lived through a lot of things. I don't know if I would expect everybody to view the world the way I do. I just know that what I felt I had to do was tell a story. I understand that telling a story involves making sure you have a theater to tell it in. I understand that I need to make sure the rent gets paid. I understand all that. My job title, however, is not Guy Who Keeps the Lights On. I'm the Artistic Director. If the art is bad, I'm bad at my job. I have no intention of being bad at my job. That's why I said, 'We need to come to an understanding and arrive at a decision about this season that you feel good about and I feel good about.'
ME: How was that received?
THEM: I was told 'This is your season.' I was given a list of shows. 'This is your season. Pick five.'
ME: They told you to pick five off a list?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Where did they get this list?
THEM: F*** if I know.
ME: (Laughs.) Did they just go to BuildaSeason.com?
THEM: It wasn't a season. You hand me a list of plays that have nothing in common other than that you think they'll make you money--there's no season in there. You could never arrive at a season if that's your, uh, your starting point. You can't do it.
ME: What made them think that the list they gave you was going to be a list that the audience was going to respond to?
THEM: They called them 'popular titles.'
ME: Even popular titles can flop.
THEM: Yes, they can.
ME: Is this how things were done before you got there?
THEM: With my predecessor?
ME: Yes.
THEM: Not to my knowledge.
ME: So why did they feel like it was okay to take this responsibility away from you?
THEM: They said that--Well, let me back up. I submitted a shortlist of proposed titles. They flatly rejected that list. This was a list that my team and I had worked on. My team which had been working at the theater under my predecessor--some of them for years and years. They were very excited about these titles as was I. This was not a list that I compiled on my own. I submit the shortlist which wasn't even that short. There were lots of great titles on there that we could have ran with and been happy with, and some of them were shows that I believe had excellent box office potential--many of them were shows that I think were financially a very safe bet, and the list was rejected.
ME: How was it rejected?
THEM: I was told that it was unacceptable.
ME: Told by who?
THEM: The board.
ME: At a board meeting?
THEM: Yes.
ME: And what did you do?
THEM: I asked for a break. We took a break. We came back in. I started to explain how some of the shows wound up on our list in the first place--my list and the team's list--I thought if I gave more background, but I was stopped a few minutes in and told these titles wouldn't work because they were too avant garde. That was the first phrase that was used. I said that none of these titles--I know what avant garde theater is, and I know enough not to suggest that [Name of Theater] should be producing avant garde titles. I will say that my predecessor, as part of their farewell season, produced Exit the King although maybe they didn't realize it was avant garde when they were producing it.
ME: Or it was a double standard.
THEM: Or that. Yes.
ME: What made you think you couldn't put anything avant garde on your list if they had done Exit the King the year--
THEM: I knew that I wasn't going to be given the kind of flexibility that the person before me had. I knew that.
ME: Was your list--the list that you presented that you and your team came up with--would you have said there were compromises on there?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Shows you wouldn't have picked but you thought it might make the board happy?
THEM: Yes.
ME: So when they reject it...?
THEM: Yes?
ME: How does that feel?
THEM: It doesn't feel good. (Laughs.) I don't remember a lot of what else happened at that meeting.
ME: Were you surprised?
THEM: Yes.
ME: What happened after that?
THEM: The meeting was adjourned after some more business--I don't remember a lot of it, but I remember thinking 'Should I resign here and now?' I didn't see a way to move forward. That night I went home, I had dinner with my husband, we talked about what had happened, and he let me know that he would support me in whatever I decided to do. This was--a job that I really wanted. This was an opportunity that I did not want to let go of without a fight. I came into the theater the next day--went to my office--and I wrote the board a letter--a real letter now, I printed it out and everything. (Laughs.) I had my assistant send it to them by mail.
ME: What did the letter say?
THEM: It let them know what our next season would be.
ME: Wow.
THEM: Yes.
ME: Why did you do the whole mailing thing?
THEM: (Laughs.) I wanted a lot of decorum. I wanted to be as...appropriate and official with my actions as I could be.
ME: So you weren't just being as extra as possible?
THEM: You know it might have been a little of that.
ME: (Laughs.) Imagine getting that letter.
THEM: I tell you, I'd love to see it.
ME: So what was in the season? Things from the list you and your team--
THEM: No, I said 'F*** it' at that point. There were--I called my team in, before I wrote that letter, and I let them know what was happening, and they pledged to stand by me. That was very important to me that they said--We stand by you. There were a few shows--a little more than five--that we had wanted but left off the list because we did feel that they wouldn't get past the board. We believed in them, but we didn't think we could get--we thought we could get the theater excited about them, but not the board--so they never made it to our shortlist. I said, 'We're going to do those five shows' and they said 'Yes, we are' and I sat down to write the letter letting the board know our decision.
ME: Our decision.
THEM: Our decision--that's right.
ME: Had you ever had a problem with a board at other places you'd worked?
THEM: No, but as a show of respect to the men and women I've worked under, I've also never been in a--in a place where I would have had to have a problem with a board.
ME: So when the mail arrived--
THEM: (Laughs.) That's good.
ME: When the mail arrived, what happened?
THEM: My phone started to ring.
ME: I'm sure it did.
THEM: I got a few emails.
ME: I'm sure you did.
THEM: I didn't get any mail back though.
ME: (Laughs.) I need to come work for you.
THEM: I hope there's still somewhere to work by the time this comes out. Or someone to work for I should say.
ME: I just don't get how they didn't toss you out there and then.
THEM: This was all very recent, Kevin.
ME: So you could still be fired?
THEM: I don't know if the plan is to--Well, that really shocked them, what I did. They think it was me playing hardball and some of them came back to me telling me, Now we're listening. Why weren't you listening before? Were you playing with me before? I don't do all that. Don't waste my time. I'm not here to negotiate. I'm here to collaborate. I'm here to create. This isn't about me bargaining with you over what I want. We have a job to do. That didn't sit well with me.
ME: I can tell.
THEM: They wanted to go back to the shortlist and look at some of the titles I talked about before that were safer.
ME: Were you willing to do that?
THEM: At that time, no I was not. I said 'I picked my season.'
ME: So you were pretty set--you are pretty set.
THEM: I am.
ME: They're not backing down either?
THEM: As far as I know, they're not.
ME: Then this is a standoff.
THEM: (Laughs.) Yes.
ME: I've never heard of something like this before.
THEM: Neither have I.
ME: What happens now?
THEM: We're going to have another meeting where I will tell them that it's this season and me or their season and whoever they can find to produce it.
ME: Do you think they'll back down?
THEM: I think they're very worried about how it would look for this group of men--all men, all straight, all white--
ME: Really?
THEM: Really. I think they're worried--and they should be--about how it would look--if it looks as though they've driven me out.
ME: Why don't they just let you do your season? Do they think you'll end up bankrupting the place?
THEM: They have financial concerns and I have assured them that I kept that in mind when looking at titles and the story we should be telling. Our mission--it says right in the mission--and I read that interview with the person you did who didn't know the mission, shame on them--the mission talks about ground-breaking theater. That's a tall order. You want me to do ground-breaking theater and you want me to do American Buffalo? I don't know how to do that. I know how to do American Buffalo which was ground-breaking, as a lot of great work is, for it's time. But it's not going to break any ground now. I said this to them and they said 'You can't take the mission statement so literally.' How else can I take it? It's a mission statement. You want me to think of some other mission in my head? I'm afraid I won't be doing that.
ME: Would you walk if they won't budge?
THEM: I'm the one that would have to budge. This is not the board's call--to choose a season. I have looked at the organization bylaws. I have looked at what my responsibilities are. I would have to budge. I'm not budging.
ME: Why do you think they felt empowered to tell you 'No?'
THEM: I would like to believe it has nothing to do with thinking of me as a troublemaker that needed to be controlled, but I really don't know.
ME: You don't think it's just that they hate the season?
THEM: But as you said, Kevin--Why did they feel like they could put their foot down about this?
ME: Because they have a responsibility to the theater? I'm just playing devil's advocate.
THEM: That's--I understand. They hired me. They knew what they were getting. We have a lot of boards all across this country right now who want a face for the poster and a puppet at the desk. Do you know what I mean by that?
ME: I think I do.
THEM: They want to say that I'm the guy running the show while they run the show. That's not going to happen.
ME: Do you think there's any damage that can be done if there's a power struggle like this--
THEM: I'll stop you there. I'm not looking for power. I'm looking to--I came into this hoping to be reasonable. I won't be the reasonable one being told that I need to be more reasonable because other people refuse to be reasonable at all.
ME: I'm going to get that tattooed on my forehead.
THEM: You go ahead and do that.
ME: I love that, because that happens to me all the time.
THEM: That you get spoken to about being reasonable?
ME: Yes, because I'm the one who will 'see reason.'
THEM: Don't you hate that?
ME: I've decided to just get crazier since that's what seems to work.
THEM: I'm just sticking to my principles. I'm going to do my job.
ME: Do you think anybody on the board might walk?
THEM: You know, I hope they don't. I really wouldn't want that. I'd love to have them stay and try to support me and what I'm trying to do. I don't mind conflict. I don't hold grudges. I think great things can come out of adversity. We've butt heads, now let's come together and--still pushing each other, still giving and taking--but let's put all that energy towards making good work.
ME: I hope it works out.
THEM: So do I, Kevin.
ME: And I hope you get your season.
THEM: I'm going to get it. Don't you worry about that. I'm already onto the next thing. I have other things to worry about.
Them is an Artistic Director.
That's why I thought this week would be the perfect time to publish an interview I did with another Artistic Director who is currently fighting for their season.
Here's the interview:
ME: Was this your first year programming a season?
THEM: As an Artistic Director, yes. I've had input into other seasons. I was the Associate Artistic Director of [Name of Theater] for almost nine years. Then I was asked to come here.
ME: They asked you?
THEM: They asked me to apply so they might--feel differently about me saying I was asked. I was asked to apply. I applied.
ME: And you got the job.
THEM: Yes.
ME: How's it been up to now?
THEM: (Laughs.) You're sure this is anonymous?
ME: Pretty sure.
THEM: It's been a difficult transition for me and for the theater. The previous Artistic Director was here for many years. [They] were very well-liked. I knew I had big shoes to fill. I came in during the second half of the season which was not ideal for many reasons. It was nobody's choice so I'm not trying to lay blame at anyone's feet, but I came in, I made sure we had a very successful second half, and that's what we're in the middle of now.
ME: And now you're looking to do your own thing?
THEM: It's not so much my own thing. I'm looking at the mission of the company and planning a season around that mission and around what I was hired to do.
ME: And what do you feel you were hired to do?
THEM: When I interviewed for this position--and I was fully aware that I was interviewing for it--they asked me what I thought could be improved at the theater. I didn't really know the answer to that, because I'd only been able to do a little bit of my own, uh, looking into the theater. My question to them was 'Do you like the path you're on?' I didn't see any reason for them to say 'No' because they were doing very well, but I put to them the idea that if I were to come in, I'm not sure I could, uh, continue on with the kind of programming they had been selecting, and they were very adamant that they were interested in change. That a change would be a good thing for the company. I assured them that I was not trying to come in--and I assured the staff of this as well at the first company meeting I called--that I was not trying to burn the house down. I wanted to--[Name of Theater] has been around a long time, and I wanted to find a way to honor that history and move forward in a direction that made sense for everyone.
ME: When did you first experience some resistance to that?
THEM: Do you want me to go through the process of choosing the season or would you--
ME: If you'd like to.
THEM: I don't know if it's--I'll say that there was one show that right away I knew I wanted to include--to actually open the season with--and right away it was--there was some resistance to that.
ME: Do you want to say the name of the play?
THEM: I'd better not.
ME: Okay.
THEM: But I just--I remember mentioning it--it was very informal--at this board meeting. The meeting had already been adjourned, and we're just conversing, a few of us, and I mention that I'm thinking of this show to open the season with, and there's this very icy reception from the person I was speaking to, and then I received an email from that same person later that night, saying that I should reconsider. I hadn't made anything official, but they were very--It seems as though I upset them or I--They didn't like the idea of us doing that show and they asked me to think of something else and they tried to make it sound as though it wouldn't be worth even having the show be thought of to open our season.
ME: What was your response?
THEM: I--I didn't know how to respond at first, because it caught me by surprise. I said that I was looking at a lot of titles and that was one of the ones I was excited about, but that a lot could happen between the beginning of a selection process and choosing the season.
ME: Were you planning on pushing back to get that show in the season?
THEM: I was prepared--I pick my battles very wisely. I wasn't going to get upset over one possible show. But when I started--I started putting together more titles and more ideas for what I thought would shape up to be a season, I learned that there was very little interest in the kind of change I had been told the theater was interested in.
ME: There's a lot of talk now about the position a new Artistic Director is in when they join a company with longevity. Do you feel like you've been given a fair shot?
THEM: I think that I was brought on because on paper I'm what the theater wanted to present itself as.
ME: And what's that? Because we talk a lot in these interviews about paper heroes.
THEM: I know, but I don't think you've ever had somebody label themselves a paper hero, right?
ME: No, that's true.
THEM: I--I am an artist of color, okay? I'm a queer artist of color. This is a theater that had a few dust-ups over the years and got itself into some trouble--
ME: I'm getting nervous for you, because you're still employed by them.
THEM: You said anonymous--
ME: (Laughs.) Even anonymously it's like--
THEM: I'm not saying anything that you can't look up. I--I pointed out all this. I said 'I am very much in my own body and experience.' That is to say--You are not going to bring me in and have me produce, uh, The Little Mermaid. You're just not. There's nothing wrong with that story. But that's not my story and I don't know how to tell that story or program that story into a season, because I don't know how that works in conjunction with other stories. I said, 'If that's the story you want to tell, I'm not your guy.' They said I was their guy.
ME: Then where was the disconnect?
THEM: Well, Kevin, there's a pretty big spectrum, right? Between The Little Mermaid and the kinds of shows I want to do. That I want to work on. That I want to see presented at a theater where I'm in charge of shepherding a vision and, uh, putting forward our mission. The question very early on became--Can we meet in the middle? But even then you have a problem because your middle and my middle are going to be very different.
ME: Do you think your values as an individual matched the values of this theater?
THEM: That's a good question.
(Pause.)
THEM: You know. That's a good question. I don't know. I get a good feeling from the people here. I still do. You know, I'm not a young guy. I've seen a lot. I've lived through a lot of things. I don't know if I would expect everybody to view the world the way I do. I just know that what I felt I had to do was tell a story. I understand that telling a story involves making sure you have a theater to tell it in. I understand that I need to make sure the rent gets paid. I understand all that. My job title, however, is not Guy Who Keeps the Lights On. I'm the Artistic Director. If the art is bad, I'm bad at my job. I have no intention of being bad at my job. That's why I said, 'We need to come to an understanding and arrive at a decision about this season that you feel good about and I feel good about.'
ME: How was that received?
THEM: I was told 'This is your season.' I was given a list of shows. 'This is your season. Pick five.'
ME: They told you to pick five off a list?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Where did they get this list?
THEM: F*** if I know.
ME: (Laughs.) Did they just go to BuildaSeason.com?
THEM: It wasn't a season. You hand me a list of plays that have nothing in common other than that you think they'll make you money--there's no season in there. You could never arrive at a season if that's your, uh, your starting point. You can't do it.
ME: What made them think that the list they gave you was going to be a list that the audience was going to respond to?
THEM: They called them 'popular titles.'
ME: Even popular titles can flop.
THEM: Yes, they can.
ME: Is this how things were done before you got there?
THEM: With my predecessor?
ME: Yes.
THEM: Not to my knowledge.
ME: So why did they feel like it was okay to take this responsibility away from you?
THEM: They said that--Well, let me back up. I submitted a shortlist of proposed titles. They flatly rejected that list. This was a list that my team and I had worked on. My team which had been working at the theater under my predecessor--some of them for years and years. They were very excited about these titles as was I. This was not a list that I compiled on my own. I submit the shortlist which wasn't even that short. There were lots of great titles on there that we could have ran with and been happy with, and some of them were shows that I believe had excellent box office potential--many of them were shows that I think were financially a very safe bet, and the list was rejected.
ME: How was it rejected?
THEM: I was told that it was unacceptable.
ME: Told by who?
THEM: The board.
ME: At a board meeting?
THEM: Yes.
ME: And what did you do?
THEM: I asked for a break. We took a break. We came back in. I started to explain how some of the shows wound up on our list in the first place--my list and the team's list--I thought if I gave more background, but I was stopped a few minutes in and told these titles wouldn't work because they were too avant garde. That was the first phrase that was used. I said that none of these titles--I know what avant garde theater is, and I know enough not to suggest that [Name of Theater] should be producing avant garde titles. I will say that my predecessor, as part of their farewell season, produced Exit the King although maybe they didn't realize it was avant garde when they were producing it.
ME: Or it was a double standard.
THEM: Or that. Yes.
ME: What made you think you couldn't put anything avant garde on your list if they had done Exit the King the year--
THEM: I knew that I wasn't going to be given the kind of flexibility that the person before me had. I knew that.
ME: Was your list--the list that you presented that you and your team came up with--would you have said there were compromises on there?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Shows you wouldn't have picked but you thought it might make the board happy?
THEM: Yes.
ME: So when they reject it...?
THEM: Yes?
ME: How does that feel?
THEM: It doesn't feel good. (Laughs.) I don't remember a lot of what else happened at that meeting.
ME: Were you surprised?
THEM: Yes.
ME: What happened after that?
THEM: The meeting was adjourned after some more business--I don't remember a lot of it, but I remember thinking 'Should I resign here and now?' I didn't see a way to move forward. That night I went home, I had dinner with my husband, we talked about what had happened, and he let me know that he would support me in whatever I decided to do. This was--a job that I really wanted. This was an opportunity that I did not want to let go of without a fight. I came into the theater the next day--went to my office--and I wrote the board a letter--a real letter now, I printed it out and everything. (Laughs.) I had my assistant send it to them by mail.
ME: What did the letter say?
THEM: It let them know what our next season would be.
ME: Wow.
THEM: Yes.
ME: Why did you do the whole mailing thing?
THEM: (Laughs.) I wanted a lot of decorum. I wanted to be as...appropriate and official with my actions as I could be.
ME: So you weren't just being as extra as possible?
THEM: You know it might have been a little of that.
ME: (Laughs.) Imagine getting that letter.
THEM: I tell you, I'd love to see it.
ME: So what was in the season? Things from the list you and your team--
THEM: No, I said 'F*** it' at that point. There were--I called my team in, before I wrote that letter, and I let them know what was happening, and they pledged to stand by me. That was very important to me that they said--We stand by you. There were a few shows--a little more than five--that we had wanted but left off the list because we did feel that they wouldn't get past the board. We believed in them, but we didn't think we could get--we thought we could get the theater excited about them, but not the board--so they never made it to our shortlist. I said, 'We're going to do those five shows' and they said 'Yes, we are' and I sat down to write the letter letting the board know our decision.
ME: Our decision.
THEM: Our decision--that's right.
ME: Had you ever had a problem with a board at other places you'd worked?
THEM: No, but as a show of respect to the men and women I've worked under, I've also never been in a--in a place where I would have had to have a problem with a board.
ME: So when the mail arrived--
THEM: (Laughs.) That's good.
ME: When the mail arrived, what happened?
THEM: My phone started to ring.
ME: I'm sure it did.
THEM: I got a few emails.
ME: I'm sure you did.
THEM: I didn't get any mail back though.
ME: (Laughs.) I need to come work for you.
THEM: I hope there's still somewhere to work by the time this comes out. Or someone to work for I should say.
ME: I just don't get how they didn't toss you out there and then.
THEM: This was all very recent, Kevin.
ME: So you could still be fired?
THEM: I don't know if the plan is to--Well, that really shocked them, what I did. They think it was me playing hardball and some of them came back to me telling me, Now we're listening. Why weren't you listening before? Were you playing with me before? I don't do all that. Don't waste my time. I'm not here to negotiate. I'm here to collaborate. I'm here to create. This isn't about me bargaining with you over what I want. We have a job to do. That didn't sit well with me.
ME: I can tell.
THEM: They wanted to go back to the shortlist and look at some of the titles I talked about before that were safer.
ME: Were you willing to do that?
THEM: At that time, no I was not. I said 'I picked my season.'
ME: So you were pretty set--you are pretty set.
THEM: I am.
ME: They're not backing down either?
THEM: As far as I know, they're not.
ME: Then this is a standoff.
THEM: (Laughs.) Yes.
ME: I've never heard of something like this before.
THEM: Neither have I.
ME: What happens now?
THEM: We're going to have another meeting where I will tell them that it's this season and me or their season and whoever they can find to produce it.
ME: Do you think they'll back down?
THEM: I think they're very worried about how it would look for this group of men--all men, all straight, all white--
ME: Really?
THEM: Really. I think they're worried--and they should be--about how it would look--if it looks as though they've driven me out.
ME: Why don't they just let you do your season? Do they think you'll end up bankrupting the place?
THEM: They have financial concerns and I have assured them that I kept that in mind when looking at titles and the story we should be telling. Our mission--it says right in the mission--and I read that interview with the person you did who didn't know the mission, shame on them--the mission talks about ground-breaking theater. That's a tall order. You want me to do ground-breaking theater and you want me to do American Buffalo? I don't know how to do that. I know how to do American Buffalo which was ground-breaking, as a lot of great work is, for it's time. But it's not going to break any ground now. I said this to them and they said 'You can't take the mission statement so literally.' How else can I take it? It's a mission statement. You want me to think of some other mission in my head? I'm afraid I won't be doing that.
ME: Would you walk if they won't budge?
THEM: I'm the one that would have to budge. This is not the board's call--to choose a season. I have looked at the organization bylaws. I have looked at what my responsibilities are. I would have to budge. I'm not budging.
ME: Why do you think they felt empowered to tell you 'No?'
THEM: I would like to believe it has nothing to do with thinking of me as a troublemaker that needed to be controlled, but I really don't know.
ME: You don't think it's just that they hate the season?
THEM: But as you said, Kevin--Why did they feel like they could put their foot down about this?
ME: Because they have a responsibility to the theater? I'm just playing devil's advocate.
THEM: That's--I understand. They hired me. They knew what they were getting. We have a lot of boards all across this country right now who want a face for the poster and a puppet at the desk. Do you know what I mean by that?
ME: I think I do.
THEM: They want to say that I'm the guy running the show while they run the show. That's not going to happen.
ME: Do you think there's any damage that can be done if there's a power struggle like this--
THEM: I'll stop you there. I'm not looking for power. I'm looking to--I came into this hoping to be reasonable. I won't be the reasonable one being told that I need to be more reasonable because other people refuse to be reasonable at all.
ME: I'm going to get that tattooed on my forehead.
THEM: You go ahead and do that.
ME: I love that, because that happens to me all the time.
THEM: That you get spoken to about being reasonable?
ME: Yes, because I'm the one who will 'see reason.'
THEM: Don't you hate that?
ME: I've decided to just get crazier since that's what seems to work.
THEM: I'm just sticking to my principles. I'm going to do my job.
ME: Do you think anybody on the board might walk?
THEM: You know, I hope they don't. I really wouldn't want that. I'd love to have them stay and try to support me and what I'm trying to do. I don't mind conflict. I don't hold grudges. I think great things can come out of adversity. We've butt heads, now let's come together and--still pushing each other, still giving and taking--but let's put all that energy towards making good work.
ME: I hope it works out.
THEM: So do I, Kevin.
ME: And I hope you get your season.
THEM: I'm going to get it. Don't you worry about that. I'm already onto the next thing. I have other things to worry about.
Them is an Artistic Director.
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