We've talked about Paper Heroes in the past.
The term came up in an early interview when the person I was talking to spoke about people in a community who, on paper, seem ideal to become leaders or influencers, but don't have the actual skill or expertise to take on that role.
At this particular moment, it seems important to be very clear who within a given community, even a theater one, is in a leadership position and make sure those people are actually qualified to serve in those roles.
Today, I spoke with someone in a unique position--a self-described paper hero who is trying very hard to give the spotlight to someone they feel would be better in the role.
Here's the interview:
ME: You and I were going to talk before this, but then it became clear that we needed to have a much different conversation.
THEM: But I'm glad we can have this conversation right now.
ME: I'm very grateful to have it right now.
THEM: I wish we didn't have to, but it does allow me to speak on some of this with, uh, more urgency.
ME: By the way, how are you doing?
THEM: Right! I've been better!
ME: We have to do that now.
THEM: It's very true. I've been better.
ME: So you identify yourself as a paper hero?
THEM: I didn't have the label for it until I read your interview about it.
ME: And you said--'That's me?'
THEM: (Laughs.) I did.
ME: I think it shows a lot of self-awareness that you heard this negative description and you thought--sounds like me.
THEM: I thought the--I think depending on how you--on whether you embrace that and go with it or reject it has a lot to do with whether it's the person you are or a position you're being put in.
ME: And you felt like you were being put in the position of a paper hero?
THEM: Yes.
ME: How long have you been working in the community you're currently in?
THEM: Three and a half years.
ME: Have you always felt like you were being asked to be in a leadership position?
THEM: From the day I got here.
ME: Why do you think that is?
THEM: I'm Latinx. I identify as non-binary. I have something interesting to say that people--that people might be interested to hear? I want to be heard. That doesn't mean I want to be a leader. There's a--there's a fine line between being a--you say paper hero, I say poster child. I don't want to be a poster child.
ME: And you think people in your area aren't good at finding that balance?
THEM: I know they're not. I'm--I'm very grateful to be welcomed so lovingly into the community I'm in. I love that I get to do my work and present it and that people are eager to hear my point of view. Where I start to take issue with it is--over the past three and a half years, I've been asked to go speak at, uh, all these events as--I don't know what. People have said--We want to hear your voice. Well, do you want my voice or do you want what I have to say?
ME: Do you think it's tokenism?
THEM: It--I don't like using that word in this case, because I think the intentions, for the most part, are good in a way where I don't think you can say that about tokenism, but I think there wasn't ever any thought given to whether I was the best person to speak at some of these events or in some these places or to these groups. I think I was highly visible because of my position in the arts community here, and so--I was just the go-to person, and I didn't like that.
ME: You wanted them to find people who were more comfortable--
THEM: More knowledgeable. I kept getting asked to speak about political matters. The political, uh, just how I exist politically in the world. I can speak to that personally. I can speak about my own person. But I'm being asked to speak for other people who identify the way I do, and I don't feel right doing that, but there are other people who do, or who are doing things for the community, who are out there, being activists, doing good work, and they're not being asked to come speak. One of them works at another theater in this area and they're never asked.
ME: Why do you think that is?
THEM: Because the theater I work at is bigger.
ME: So it's--
THEM: It's visibility. It's all visibility. I've been trying to shift that visibility, especially right now.
ME: Can you elaborate on that?
THEM: Yes. When all of this started, there was a discussion about how people need to hear from experts, but it's also useful to hear from people who look like you, who sound like you, who've had similar experiences to yours. This is an experience that is affecting everyone, but we all experience things differently. That's why we need to hear from a lot of different voices and we need to hear what those voices have to say, because right now, that could save lives. That could save livelihoods. It's really important.
ME: And were you called on to speak?
THEM: Right away.
ME: And what did you say?
THEM: I said I had no business speaking on this. For one thing, I have no interest in being at the front of the line to answer any questions about what's going on right now. I'm as clueless as anybody. I have no experience in any of the issues that are being discussed right now. Then it was said to me that I needed to get out there--I think they were trying to say that I have a responsibility to be a morale booster or something like that.
ME: Who is they?
THEM: Some people who work at my theater and some other artistic leaders in the community.
ME: What did you say to them?
THEM: I said that I am not emotionally or mentally in a place where I can be responsible for the morale of the community, and I thanked them for wanting to keep a diverse slate of people from our community out there talking to people at this time, but that I would recommend--and I recommended this other artist who, from what I could tell, was more at ease being in a leadership position, and I thought it was a great chance for this person--for them to--for people in the community to see the value of this person.
ME: Maybe get them more attention because they've been deserving of it even before now?
THEM: Yes.
ME: And what happened?
THEM: That was flatly rejected.
ME: Why?
THEM: Because they are not one of us. That's--
ME: What does that mean?
THEM: This is a person who is, uh, more polarizing than I am. Or that I've presented myself to be, and trust me, I will be examining that part of my personality when all this is over, because--I think part of why people keep trying to give me a megaphone is because they're not all that worried about what I'm going to do once I have it. This person is saying some important things that they don't want said, and they haven't--uh, nobody's signed off on them. They work at one of the fringe theaters. They weren't--and my idea of how this might help elevate them in this moment of crisis, but then hopefully keep them in the conversation after the crisis is over--that was something I--that I wasn't aware the people who work with me wouldn't want.
ME: You're saying they feel like--and if I get this wrong please tell me--
THEM: Go ahead.
ME: You're saying the people you work with and some of the other leaders in the community are saying--We didn't want to hear from this person before and we don't want to hear from them now and we especially don't want this to become an opportunity for them to advance their standing in this community.
THEM: Yes. I think it does make some sense that, uh, you want to be careful who gains some strength in what could be perceived as a power vacuum. But that's not what's going on. This is the person who should have the attention that I've been given. I just want to work and do theater and I miss doing it and until I get to do it again, I don't really feel like doing anything else. This other person--they are a theater artist, but they're also an advocate. If you say you want advocacy, go find an advocate.
ME: It sounds like elitism.
THEM: It is elitism. It's tribalism and there's this feeling that if your tribe has all kinds of colors and ages and backgrounds in it that you're a diverse tribe, but diversity isn't supposed to be that, uh, carefully constructed with an eye on 'No troublemakers. Everybody gets along.' If everybody gets along, why'd you even bother having diversity? Diversity is supposed to shake s*** up.
ME: So what have you been doing to move your light onto this person?
THEM: I keep sharing their posts. I keep sharing videos of updates they've been giving since all this has been going on. I reached out to them and told them about what went down.
ME: You told them that people were trying to ignore what they had to say?
THEM: Yes I did.
ME: How did that go over?
THEM: They--they weren't surprised. They had a feeling that had been going on. I think it led them to be even more polarizing, but now I'm backing them up.
ME: It's why I don't trust people who are 'beloved' in a given community. It's like--You like them because you're not threatened by them. As soon as someone speaks up and calls out bulls**** suddenly they lose their beloved status.
THEM: Aren't you beloved in your community?
ME: Not by the people at the, uh--
THEM: Oh, I'm getting some tea now.
ME: I would say the higher you go the less I'm liked.
THEM: Does it bother you?
ME: Some days it does, yeah.
THEM: See, I think of you as a leader in your community.
ME: I'm like you though--I don't know if I want to be a leader. I just want to be heard.
THEM: I think people hear you, Kevin.
ME: (Laughs.) Because I keep raising my voice.
THEM: You're very loud.
ME: Mhmm. How has the shifting of the spotlight been going?
THEM: It's--I think the audiences, the people who are within the sphere of influence that people in my position have, having been giving bigger platforms, those people also want me to be the person they hear from and they're a little, uh, they're not looking to meet new people and take advice from them, but I'm not really giving them a choice, because it's that or nothing. I'm not going to be your paper hero. I think we'll get there, and once theaters reopen, I'm excited to talk with the people I work with about how we're going to start creating work with some of these people we've been trying to keep out.
ME: How do you think that conversation is going to go?
THEM: We'll see when we get there, Kevin.
ME: (Laughs.) You going to talk to me again when it happens?
THEM: You'll be my first call.
ME: We love to hear it.
THEM: Take care, my friend.
ME: You too. Stay safe.
Them is an actor, writer, and hopefully not a paper hero for much longer.
The term came up in an early interview when the person I was talking to spoke about people in a community who, on paper, seem ideal to become leaders or influencers, but don't have the actual skill or expertise to take on that role.
At this particular moment, it seems important to be very clear who within a given community, even a theater one, is in a leadership position and make sure those people are actually qualified to serve in those roles.
Today, I spoke with someone in a unique position--a self-described paper hero who is trying very hard to give the spotlight to someone they feel would be better in the role.
Here's the interview:
ME: You and I were going to talk before this, but then it became clear that we needed to have a much different conversation.
THEM: But I'm glad we can have this conversation right now.
ME: I'm very grateful to have it right now.
THEM: I wish we didn't have to, but it does allow me to speak on some of this with, uh, more urgency.
ME: By the way, how are you doing?
THEM: Right! I've been better!
ME: We have to do that now.
THEM: It's very true. I've been better.
ME: So you identify yourself as a paper hero?
THEM: I didn't have the label for it until I read your interview about it.
ME: And you said--'That's me?'
THEM: (Laughs.) I did.
ME: I think it shows a lot of self-awareness that you heard this negative description and you thought--sounds like me.
THEM: I thought the--I think depending on how you--on whether you embrace that and go with it or reject it has a lot to do with whether it's the person you are or a position you're being put in.
ME: And you felt like you were being put in the position of a paper hero?
THEM: Yes.
ME: How long have you been working in the community you're currently in?
THEM: Three and a half years.
ME: Have you always felt like you were being asked to be in a leadership position?
THEM: From the day I got here.
ME: Why do you think that is?
THEM: I'm Latinx. I identify as non-binary. I have something interesting to say that people--that people might be interested to hear? I want to be heard. That doesn't mean I want to be a leader. There's a--there's a fine line between being a--you say paper hero, I say poster child. I don't want to be a poster child.
ME: And you think people in your area aren't good at finding that balance?
THEM: I know they're not. I'm--I'm very grateful to be welcomed so lovingly into the community I'm in. I love that I get to do my work and present it and that people are eager to hear my point of view. Where I start to take issue with it is--over the past three and a half years, I've been asked to go speak at, uh, all these events as--I don't know what. People have said--We want to hear your voice. Well, do you want my voice or do you want what I have to say?
ME: Do you think it's tokenism?
THEM: It--I don't like using that word in this case, because I think the intentions, for the most part, are good in a way where I don't think you can say that about tokenism, but I think there wasn't ever any thought given to whether I was the best person to speak at some of these events or in some these places or to these groups. I think I was highly visible because of my position in the arts community here, and so--I was just the go-to person, and I didn't like that.
ME: You wanted them to find people who were more comfortable--
THEM: More knowledgeable. I kept getting asked to speak about political matters. The political, uh, just how I exist politically in the world. I can speak to that personally. I can speak about my own person. But I'm being asked to speak for other people who identify the way I do, and I don't feel right doing that, but there are other people who do, or who are doing things for the community, who are out there, being activists, doing good work, and they're not being asked to come speak. One of them works at another theater in this area and they're never asked.
ME: Why do you think that is?
THEM: Because the theater I work at is bigger.
ME: So it's--
THEM: It's visibility. It's all visibility. I've been trying to shift that visibility, especially right now.
ME: Can you elaborate on that?
THEM: Yes. When all of this started, there was a discussion about how people need to hear from experts, but it's also useful to hear from people who look like you, who sound like you, who've had similar experiences to yours. This is an experience that is affecting everyone, but we all experience things differently. That's why we need to hear from a lot of different voices and we need to hear what those voices have to say, because right now, that could save lives. That could save livelihoods. It's really important.
ME: And were you called on to speak?
THEM: Right away.
ME: And what did you say?
THEM: I said I had no business speaking on this. For one thing, I have no interest in being at the front of the line to answer any questions about what's going on right now. I'm as clueless as anybody. I have no experience in any of the issues that are being discussed right now. Then it was said to me that I needed to get out there--I think they were trying to say that I have a responsibility to be a morale booster or something like that.
ME: Who is they?
THEM: Some people who work at my theater and some other artistic leaders in the community.
ME: What did you say to them?
THEM: I said that I am not emotionally or mentally in a place where I can be responsible for the morale of the community, and I thanked them for wanting to keep a diverse slate of people from our community out there talking to people at this time, but that I would recommend--and I recommended this other artist who, from what I could tell, was more at ease being in a leadership position, and I thought it was a great chance for this person--for them to--for people in the community to see the value of this person.
ME: Maybe get them more attention because they've been deserving of it even before now?
THEM: Yes.
ME: And what happened?
THEM: That was flatly rejected.
ME: Why?
THEM: Because they are not one of us. That's--
ME: What does that mean?
THEM: This is a person who is, uh, more polarizing than I am. Or that I've presented myself to be, and trust me, I will be examining that part of my personality when all this is over, because--I think part of why people keep trying to give me a megaphone is because they're not all that worried about what I'm going to do once I have it. This person is saying some important things that they don't want said, and they haven't--uh, nobody's signed off on them. They work at one of the fringe theaters. They weren't--and my idea of how this might help elevate them in this moment of crisis, but then hopefully keep them in the conversation after the crisis is over--that was something I--that I wasn't aware the people who work with me wouldn't want.
ME: You're saying they feel like--and if I get this wrong please tell me--
THEM: Go ahead.
ME: You're saying the people you work with and some of the other leaders in the community are saying--We didn't want to hear from this person before and we don't want to hear from them now and we especially don't want this to become an opportunity for them to advance their standing in this community.
THEM: Yes. I think it does make some sense that, uh, you want to be careful who gains some strength in what could be perceived as a power vacuum. But that's not what's going on. This is the person who should have the attention that I've been given. I just want to work and do theater and I miss doing it and until I get to do it again, I don't really feel like doing anything else. This other person--they are a theater artist, but they're also an advocate. If you say you want advocacy, go find an advocate.
ME: It sounds like elitism.
THEM: It is elitism. It's tribalism and there's this feeling that if your tribe has all kinds of colors and ages and backgrounds in it that you're a diverse tribe, but diversity isn't supposed to be that, uh, carefully constructed with an eye on 'No troublemakers. Everybody gets along.' If everybody gets along, why'd you even bother having diversity? Diversity is supposed to shake s*** up.
ME: So what have you been doing to move your light onto this person?
THEM: I keep sharing their posts. I keep sharing videos of updates they've been giving since all this has been going on. I reached out to them and told them about what went down.
ME: You told them that people were trying to ignore what they had to say?
THEM: Yes I did.
ME: How did that go over?
THEM: They--they weren't surprised. They had a feeling that had been going on. I think it led them to be even more polarizing, but now I'm backing them up.
ME: It's why I don't trust people who are 'beloved' in a given community. It's like--You like them because you're not threatened by them. As soon as someone speaks up and calls out bulls**** suddenly they lose their beloved status.
THEM: Aren't you beloved in your community?
ME: Not by the people at the, uh--
THEM: Oh, I'm getting some tea now.
ME: I would say the higher you go the less I'm liked.
THEM: Does it bother you?
ME: Some days it does, yeah.
THEM: See, I think of you as a leader in your community.
ME: I'm like you though--I don't know if I want to be a leader. I just want to be heard.
THEM: I think people hear you, Kevin.
ME: (Laughs.) Because I keep raising my voice.
THEM: You're very loud.
ME: Mhmm. How has the shifting of the spotlight been going?
THEM: It's--I think the audiences, the people who are within the sphere of influence that people in my position have, having been giving bigger platforms, those people also want me to be the person they hear from and they're a little, uh, they're not looking to meet new people and take advice from them, but I'm not really giving them a choice, because it's that or nothing. I'm not going to be your paper hero. I think we'll get there, and once theaters reopen, I'm excited to talk with the people I work with about how we're going to start creating work with some of these people we've been trying to keep out.
ME: How do you think that conversation is going to go?
THEM: We'll see when we get there, Kevin.
ME: (Laughs.) You going to talk to me again when it happens?
THEM: You'll be my first call.
ME: We love to hear it.
THEM: Take care, my friend.
ME: You too. Stay safe.
Them is an actor, writer, and hopefully not a paper hero for much longer.
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