Theater and Cashing the Check

I think it's normal when you're interviewing people and then heavily editing those interviews that you, the interviewer, would err on the side of making yourself look good.

The truth is, even if you go out of your way to not do that, just by owning the platform, you automatically gain audience support.

My reason for pointing this out is that I almost didn't put this interview out there.  I'm quick to anger, and it's something I've dealt with for a long time.  When I blow up, it's not good, and even though I've gotten heated during these exchanges, I can't say I've ever really, truly lost it on someone.

I had a much nicer interview that I could have ran instead this week that was constructive and interesting and you'll see that next week, but I can't justify burying this particular interview, and looking at it now, ten days from when it was had, I still stand by most of what I said even if I wish I could have said some of it in a better way.

Them is an actor I've known since I was in my early twenties. They're someone I would call a friend, and we're still friends now.  I checked with them before I put this out there to see if they would prefer I not put this interview out there, but they agreed that there's no point hiding the ugly stuff now.

Here's the interview:

ME:  This started from a call-out.

THEM:  You called me out.

ME:  I did.

THEM:  I go 'Put me in an interview. Let's do one of your interviews.'

ME:  Have you read these interviews before?

THEM:  I read the Wolf one.

ME:  I think that's the only one anybody read.

THEM:  I know people who read all of them.

ME:  Oh, that's nice.

THEM:  My friends--I have some friends who love them.

ME:  Why don't you read them?  We're friends.

THEM:  Because I would want to know who the people are in them.

ME:  The anonymity ruins it for you?

THEM:  It would just bother me.  I need to picture the people.

ME:  Fair enough.  Let's talk about when I called you out.

THEM:  Let's do it.

ME:  You posted a status about a theater you worked at where you felt they were not doing enough to diversify.

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  Oh, wait, okay, so--because this is anonymous.  It's weird to have to say this, but I need to make a note for the recording.  You're white.

THEM:  I am.

ME:  I just feel like that might be important for later.

THEM:  Yeah, that's fine.

ME:  So we are two white people about to have the conversation we're about to have.

THEM:  Okay.

ME:  One of the things that came up in the conversations I've had the past few weeks is--Have you talked to another white person about some of this?  So that's part of why I said we could do this.

THEM:  Okay.

ME:  So you posted about this theater and how you weren't happy with how they were doing in terms of their support for Black Lives Matter and just--

THEM:  How they could do better.

ME:  Right.  And I commented that you're currently a Resident Artist at a place that I feel is doing much worse than the theater you called out.

THEM:  You called me out on my call out.

ME:  I did.

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  So let's go from there.

THEM:  Where would you like to go?

ME:  Did you think I was being unfair?

THEM:  Uhhhhhh yes.

ME:  Why?

THEM:  Because I don't think you get to police who I criticize on my own page.

ME:  Your Facebook page.

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  But do you think I was wrong?

THEM:  About [Name of Theater] doing worse than [Name of Other Theater]?

ME:  Yes.

THEM:  I--I know about the work that's going on at the theater I'm working at.  I don't know what the work is that's going on at that other theater.  I wanted to show that I was willing to call out one group that I had worked with.  I didn't say 'Every other theater I've worked with is perfect.'  I was just showing that I could hold one place that I had worked with, uh--

ME:  But you hadn't worked there in years, and I--Can I talk about how you had a falling out with them?

THEM:  I don't think the problem I had with them is relevant though.

ME:  I won't talk about the--I just want to point out that long before this issue came up, you had no interest in working there again.  Is that true?

THEM:  I wouldn't be interested in working there again for issues like this--

ME:  It's not about this issue.  That's bulls___.  Come on.

THEM:  I've had an issue with them on this--

ME:  Have you had the same issue with the theater you're currently getting a check from?

THEM:  Yes, I have.  I've voiced those issues, Kevin.

ME:  Not publicly.

THEM:  That doesn't mean I haven't had the issues.

ME:  But why did you call out another theater that you haven't worked at and don't want to work at again instead of saying 'I want to call out the theater where I am currently employed?'

THEM:  That sounds like a question where--Do you want me to say because I'm scared of not working there again?

ME:  Could that be part of it?

THEM:  I don't know that they wouldn't hire me anymore.

ME:  When we finish this interview, will you commit to going online and calling them out?

THEM:  I know what they're doing, Kevin.  They are doing some work on this.

ME:  It's been ten days since the first major protest.  They have no--

THEM:  Kevin.

ME:  --They have a statement that is a paragraph long that is a bunch of buzzwords and no action plan.  Ten days.  Dolly Parton wrote "Jolene" and "I Will Always Love You" in one night.

THEM:  You probably know that theaters have a lot going on right now.

ME:  Bull.  S___.

THEM:  Okay.

ME:  There IS no theater right now.  We're all going to Zoom meetings twice a day.  Other than that--no theater.  So what are you busy with?

THEM:  You want an action plan and we don't even have a reopening plan yet.

ME:  Well I don't know why you think you deserve to reopen if you're demonstrating that you're going to be the same theater company you were before you closed.

THEM:  That's not cool, dude.  No.

ME:  You can't cite--there is nothing happening at any theater right now.  There is no programming.  This is the perfect time to work on this, because there's nothing else going on.

THEM:  You don't know that.

ME:  What are you doing?  Cold-calling donors to see if they can prop you up for another year so you can do 42nd Street for the third time?

THEM:  I'm not getting into what we're working on.  You do your work.  You worry about your own work.

ME:  But you came after another theater.

THEM:  I didn't come after your theater.

ME:  I don't care that it wasn't--

THEM:  You don't even like the theater I came after.

ME:  You're right.  I don't, but that has nothing to do with it.

THEM:  How do you figure that?

ME:  Because this is--okay, so two weeks ago, every theater person in America became an activist--

THEM:  Including you.

ME:  Yup, me.  Mr. Late-to-the-Party.  Yes.  Can I continue?

THEM:  I was not late to the party either, but you go ahead.

ME:  Well what you were was selectively choosing which theaters you wanted to snap at and which ones you wanted to gas up based on how much you did or didn't want to work there.  That's not--

THEM:  No.

ME:  That's now how that can work.  You can't base--

THEM:  Kevin, no.

ME:  I'm sorry that the people who sign your checks are doing worse than the people you don't like, but that's just how the cookie crumbles in this case.

THEM:  So you're woke is I guess what you're--

ME:  Who said that?  I didn't say that.

THEM:  Because you're--

ME:  I called you out because you're being selective, and you're--

THEM:  What does selective even mean in this--

ME:  It means you're one of those people--and we have a lot of them where I'm from--who put getting work and getting roles first and everything else second, and now they're trying to integrate their newly adopted value system into their subscription packages, and I don't see how that works.

THEM:  You're so convoluted right now, dude.

ME:  Don't call me, dude.  I'm not your f___ing dude.

THEM:  Okay.

ME:  Because you're not going to bro me like you bro the straight boys that run that piece of s___ testosterone complex you work at.

THEM:  F___ you, Kevin.  That's a low blow.

ME:  Angels with an all-straight cast.  F___ me?  F___ you.

THEM:  What does that have to do with what we're talking about?

ME:  It has to do with your place of business--

THEM:  I'm not the person in charge there.

ME:  But you're not opening your mouth either.

THEM:  That's--

ME:  It has to do with your place of business, that pays you, sucking on presenting work that speaks to anybody who doesn't look like you and the line out the door of people who won't say anything, because they want one of those checks too.

THEM:  People gotta eat.

ME:  You can eat or you can speak up.  I don't know if you can do both anymore.  Seems like--

THEM:  Easy for you to say.

ME:  Easy for me to say?  You think I don't want to eat?

THEM:  I think you aren't sitting where I'm sitting.

ME:  You could also choose not to try and create this persona of 'Oh, I care as long' when it's really about 'Oh, I care as long as it doesn't jeopardize me getting cast.'  That's what that is.  It's fake.

THEM:  It's fake.  Okay.

ME:  It's fake.

THEM:  I think you're fake.

ME:  I am fake.  I'm--

THEM:  You're--

ME:  I am the fakest person you will ever meet and yet I was not the one coming after a theater I worked at ten years ago trying to make myself look good while all the while--

THEM:  [Name] directed that Angels by the way.

ME:  Why is that important?

THEM:  He's gay.

ME:  Old gay directors are the most homophobic people on earth.  Are you kidding me?

THEM:  He was the one who cast--

ME:  Oh my god.

THEM:  He did.

ME:  They literally get their rocks off casting straight boys so they can watch them make out with each other.  Where have you been?

THEM:  You don't know--to go back--you don't know that I'm not calling out people privately, and if I call people out publicly, and the people in charge of [Name of Theater] stop listening to me, what good am I doing then?  I can't help make any change then.

ME:  You've been trying to make change since you got there and nothing has happened.  You were the one calling for more women directors, you tried to get more plays done written by LGBTQ writers, you tried all this stuff, and nothing happened.  So you want to keep trying the same thing over and over again?  Why?

THEM:  I think you have this philosophy--and I'm sorry for calling you fake.  I didn't mean that.

ME:  I meant it.  I'm fake.  Go ahead.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  No, but I'm serious.

ME:  I'm being deadly serious.  You think this me that you're talking to is like, me me?  You're incorrect, but I won't get into that.  Go ahead.

THEM:  You have this philosophy--and this is about being fake or not being fake--that everybody on social media does everything with a--you say strategy.  With a strategy in mind.

ME:  When it comes to theater people?  Absolutely.

THEM:  You really think that?

ME:  I do.  I see--Just in the past week, I've seen individual theater artists saying 'We need to see this' and then a smaller theater that they don't want to work at--

THEM:  Yours?

ME:  Not necessarily mine.  I've seen a lot of smaller theaters really stepping up this week.  And I've seen those individual artists, who were saying 'We need to see this' ignoring it, because they want to vaguely put it out there that they'd really like the big organizations they've either worked at or want to work at change, and they really don't care if change happens at the independent or fringe level, because they don't want to work at those places, so they think it doesn't matter.

THEM:  I don't think so.

ME:  I think they want change to happen at the cool kids table, because that's where they want to sit.

THEM:  You really hate theater people, huh?

ME:  I--

THEM:  For someone who runs a theater.

ME:  I think theater people--like everybody--have a lot of work to do on themselves in regards to issues of race, and class, and wanting to play on winning teams rather than be a part of creating a winning team.  I do have a lot to say about all that, but to get back to--

THEM:  You don't like playing for winning teams?

ME:  What does mean though?  Let's talk about what that means.  Because historically, at least where I'm from, the winning team has been the team that all the straight white guys are on--where they work--and the captain is usually a very attractive, younger, straight white guy, and there's usually room on the team for one person who is not that.  Maybe two spots on the bench if you're lucky.

THEM:  You think that best describes the place I work at?

ME:  Yes.  You don't?

THEM:  I don't.

ME:  The numbers are right there.  Look at the numbers.

THEM:  I know what the--

ME:  Look at the numbers and you tell me--

THEM:  You don't think they want to change?

ME:  Why would somebody or a theater that has achieved the goal of looking like the winning team want to change the definition of what winning means?  Why would they do that?  It wouldn't make any sense.

THEM:  That's what I'm trying to say--You're asking people to work against their own best interest.

ME:  I think that's why you're not seeing tangible action plans from these theaters.  Because it all boils down to--Pick plays written by people who are nothing like you, cast people in those plays who are nothing like you, hire directors who might not be your friends because maybe you don't have any Black directors as friends, and then work on creating an audience that wants to see those shows.

THEM:  But you know--everybody wants to act and direct, and everybody wants to see their plays produced and--

ME:  Those are the coveted spots.  I talked about this with the friend who helped me write up our statement for Epic.  Yes, those are the coveted spots.  But why would you say--'We can't give you the coveted spots.  Don't you understand everybody wants those spots?'  Then what good is it if your plan is--We'll let you fold donor envelopes in the development office.  We'll send you out to do skits about racism in elementary schools.  We'll let you run the summer camp.  Oh, but you can't be onstage here.  That's a coveted spot.  We have to protect that spot.

THEM:  I don't know what the answer is.

ME:  I just told you the answer.

THEM:  Do you want me to walk into the theater the next time we're allowed in there and say 'Don't cast me anymore. Cast other people?'  Would that make you happy?

ME:  There's a reason the expression is 'Build a bigger table.'  It's not about not including you, it's about including way more people than we're already including.

THEM:  I--

ME:  And it also might be about not including you.  Or me.  And, you know what, frankly, I think we've both had a good run.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  I'm not done with my run.

ME:  When you create opportunities for other people, especially people who have never had those opportunities before, that is, in and of itself, creating an opportunity for you.  You then are taking on--I think that is--if there's anything noble in the arts, it's that.  It's putting yourself in a position to create those opportunities.

THEM:  I've never done that before.

ME:  I know.

THEM:  Not because I didn't want to--

ME:  But you are in the door, right?  You're in the door.  You just said you can walk into the theater when it reopens and you're not sure what to say.  Maybe instead of saying something, bring somebody in that door with you.  Bring in an actor, or a designer, or somebody and say--They're great.  Give them a shot.

THEM:  You know how SNL they tell you not to do that with Lorne because he'll get pissed.

ME:  We can't worry about making the guy at the top mad anymore.  You're talking about a place you've worked at for ten years and you still have to walk on eggshells?  Honestly, why work there?  Seriously?

THEM:  I don't have that many choices, Kevin.

ME:  Make your own choices.  I don't know what to tell you.  I know it's not easy.  I think we're looking for pre-existing answers to new questions, and I don't think they're there yet, but we have time to find them.

THEM:  Do you want me to call them out?

ME:  Yes.

THEM:  You really want me to do that.

ME:  I think if you do it, other people will do it.

THEM:  I'll think about it.

ME:  Do you want me to call out Epic?

THEM:  You RUN Epic.

ME:  I will call out myself.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  But see, you've already burned every bridge, that's why it doesn't matter.

ME:  (Laughs.)  F___ you, but yes, that's true.

THEM:  Can we--I want to declare our love for each other like you do in the nice interviews.

ME:  And the not nice ones.

THEM:  We have to do that.  This got really dark.

ME:  I do love you.

THEM:  I love you too.

ME:  Go call them out.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  I'm going to call you out.

ME:  Jesus, get in line.

Them is an actor and director.