Ever since my interview with someone involved with a production that opened in the midst of the pandemic (which you can read here https://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2020/07/theater-and-pandemic-players.html ) I've wanted to talk to an epidemiologist about how safe it is to do theater at the moment.
Surprisingly, a few that I spoke with were concerned about going public with their concerns, especially if it meant addressing specific productions and what they are or aren't doing correctly.
Luckily for me, I have a whole series of anonymous interviews where people can speak freely and hopefully with more candor than they would otherwise.
Once I offered someone the opportunity to do an interview anonymously, I found a pretty prominent specialist to sign up, and it was enlightening to say the least.
Here's the interview:
ME: Before we begin, obviously I can't say too much about your career without giving away who you are, but just quickly--you have been an epidemiologist for how long?
THEM: I've been working in my field for over twenty years.
ME: You're currently employed by a university that I find to be very impressive.
THEM: I would say that's fair. I think they're impressive as well.
ME: I want to thank you for making time to speak with me. Can I ask why you were hesitant to do a public interview?
THEM: One of my colleagues recently went on a major news network and did an interview and the next day, her inbox was flooded with hate mail. Another colleague who is local and did a local interview with a newspaper here had a brick thrown through her window.
ME: That's crazy.
THEM: There is an attack happening on science and scientists at the moment, and I know, for me, that's not what I signed up for when I chose this path. I'm not a politician. I'm not, uh, comfortable being considered a political figure or even a public figure. That's why I haven't made it a point to speak out, because--It's also because I don't think I have anything new to say that hasn't already been said.
ME: For the purposes of this interview, we're just going to focus on talking about safely reopening theaters.
THEM: I understand.
ME: Okay, so--what is your comfort level with having theaters open for indoor productions?
THEM: I looked at the information you sent me--
ME: I sent you a few examples of theaters that are trying to reopen, including the one that was the subject of my last interview about all this.
THEM: Yes. This is all going to my opinion, anonymous or not. I should say that first.
ME: But your opinion obviously weighs heavier than the average person's opinion.
THEM: Right, but I know in the case you sent me, the one from your interview, it seems like they had consulted with someone at their Department of Health about reopening, and--I don't want to come out against what someone else in this field may have advised.
ME: Okay.
THEM: But I think they were dead wrong.
ME: (Laughs.) For a second, I was nervous you were going to say something vague.
THEM: Telling people they can do indoor theater right now is--I don't know where this person got their degree, but it should be revoked.
ME: Why do you think they would say that?
THEM: I looked at what they said. They gave them guidelines. There's nothing wrong with giving people guidelines, but you're also putting your name--You're attaching your name to this reopening now. I wouldn't attach my name to anything reopening no matter what it was, because inevitably, somebody is going to get sick, and then you are the person who appears to have greenlit the entire thing.
ME: I want to talk about that word 'greenlit,' because almost all these theaters have talked about getting approval or getting a green light and you said something I found so interesting about that--
THEM: There are no green lights. Departments of Health--and I work with the DOH here in [Name of State] and I have--I've consulted with them throughout all of this and during previous, uh, times when i was asked for my assistance. The DOH in a given state, as far as I know, there could be one or two exceptions, they're not going to give greenlights or permits or anything like that. That's not what they do.
ME: But they can shut you down.
THEM: And you do see them shutting down one or two restaurants here and there. We see that happening. We also see a lot more restaurants that we know are not complying with guidelines and, quite simply, are not doing the right thing. Those places aren't being shut down. Now why is that? Because those departments--across this country--are overwhelmed. Overwhelmed is an understatement. They're under siege. And--I see many of them--honestly, including the one I work with here, taking the approach that if an outdoor concert or an art show or a gathering or dining--as long as guidelines are given to the owner or event organizer and there's a promise made to follow those guidelines--from that point on, you're on your own. That is not what we would consider to be a green light to go ahead with the blessing of anyone. That is not the same thing as a permit. DOH doesn't give out permits. What they're doing, in many cases, is standing back and watching, and if nothing happens, no harm no foul. If it does, you never had a real green light from DOH or the state government, and everyone involved knows that, and it's all going to fall on you. But the example of that musical you showed me where they said they had 'approval from the state' is so misleading, because--
ME: That was the subject of the interview.
THEM: The state isn't giving you approval. That's false. Just because they didn't say you couldn't do it--That is not the same thing as getting permission or approval. These companies are putting themselves at risk, because if something goes wrong, and the public turns to the state or DOH and asks about this permission that was given, they're going to be told that never happened.
ME: But many of these places are following guidelines and--What I thought was so interesting when we talked earlier before we went on the record was that you didn't make it sound like you thought these places were acting recklessly. You made it sound as though the very nature of what we think of as being 'safe' right now is different than what we're being led to believe?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Can you talk more about that?
THEM: Yes. If you do everything you need to do--and I'm talking about--We're talking about theater, but this could go for lots of businesses and events--If you do everything you need to do to keep people safe, you are not still not offering safety. You can't offer safety. This virus is still so new to us. We are learning things everyday. We are learning--We are learning that different people are affected differently. That some people seem to be more susceptible to contracting it than other people--and we don't entirely know why. We're still studying things like how long it lives on surfaces. How long it stays in the air. In addition to all of that, you can do everything you need to do, you the business or the--the theater--and you can't guarantee that the people you're inviting in--the customers, the ticket buyers--are going to do what they're supposed to do the entire time they're with you and with others. That is why I would not say you can promote doing something "safely." You can't.
ME: What argument is there though to be made that if we say that about theater, what about indoor dining or outdoor dining even--
THEM: I would never--I don't know many scientists right now who would say anything is totally safe.
ME: And yet we see things reopening--
THEM: We think, right now, that some things--outdoor events--are safer--for the most part. Here's the thing. When I say, 'for the most part,' what I'm implying is that you could stay--or you could keep most people--mostly safe. The other side of that, if you follow the logic, is that you can't keep everybody safe or you can't keep yourself entirely safe. That it's not out of the question that you could still be putting yourself at risk. What really concerns me, when I look at all the materials you sent me, is that...there's no mention of that in any of these materials. No mention of the risk attending these events.
ME: Do you think that's irresponsible?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Do you think there's an argument to be made that leaving the house in and of itself is a risk?
THEM: Yes. A bus could hit you. Sure. Depending on who you are--if you're someone who would end up on a ventilator--you'd be praying for the bus. That's what I'll say. There's a risk, but people have to go to the grocery store. I get that. I don't want to sound insensitive, but as we've been saying for months, you do not need to go to a concert. You don't need to--I'm sorry, but you don't need to go to the theater.
ME: You don't have to apologize. I'm with you on that one.
THEM: I think we can have another conversation about helping artists financially, but in-person anything is a risk, and if you feel you can do it and have 99.9% of the people you serve food to or do a show for stay safe, I would say to you--What about the .1% that could die and that would be on your head? Or become ill and suffer effects from that illness for the rest of their life? What I said back in March and what I'm still saying now is that someone can't get sick going to an event if the event doesn't happen. They can't get sick going to a bar if the bar isn't open. By making something available to people, you are putting it on the public to avoid the risk, and we've seen that that won't happen. Now if someone wants to put themselves at risk, that's one thing. But we know that while this is attacking our ability to gather together, it is, in addition to that, taking advantage of the fact that we are not able to isolate ourselves from each other. You opening a theater and letting people come into your theater is allowing the people that come into your theater to possibly do the wrong thing and then make the people in their lives pay for that mistake.
ME: I have to admit that I kind of found it--relieving, when everything was put on hold, and obviously I say that as someone who doesn't make my living from having a theater stay open, so I don't want to sound insensitive to those who do, but I think in terms of--People feeling like they're always competing with other theaters, it was nice to have that not be a factor for awhile, and I worry that once one or two theaters start reopening, you're going to see everybody trying to--
THEM: Yes, and the problem with that is, even if one is doing everything correctly, and we've gone over how that isn't enough, how do you ensure that every other place that's inspired to try it is also doing everything correctly? We know that most places--small businesses--don't have the resources to do it the correct way, and some of them are still trying it anyway, because they don't want to be left behind. It goes back to--We are all indirectly responsible for each other in this crisis. If I open my bait and tackle shop and I get people patting me on the back for persevering and then the guy down the street thinks he has to open up because he can't let me have all the glory, but he does it wrong, and a hundred people get sick, you can't say I'm not partly responsible, because I would have had to know that that was going to be the logical next step in any economy. So you're right; in some ways, we were better off when it was a forced freeze, and the forced freeze should have been more expansive, lasted longer, and then we wouldn't be here at all.
ME: When you talk about other experts who have put their names on projects like the musical I talked about, why do you think they're doing that? I mean, that's going to lend a lot of credibility towards making people feel like they are safe.
THEM: I think scientists want to create solutions, right? That's what we strive to do. I didn't mean to be flippant earlier, because wanting to help and knowing that if you don't help, somebody who's not as thorough as you might step in and try to do it--that's an honorable thing to do.
ME: But you wouldn't do it?
THEM: No, I wouldn't, and if you put a gun to my head and made me do it, I would be sure that the wording in the marketing materials did not mention me and that it was made clear that we were still asking people to accept a risk, not only to them, but to them and the people in their lives, if they attended the event. That's the responsible way to do it if you're going to do it. I feel.
ME: Do you have faith in the contact tracing these businesses have to do? You can answer that for theaters or for businesses in general?
THEM: In general, no.
ME: Why not?
THEM: Because if a business finds out that someone who has been at their business has contracted COVID, you are asking that business to take a gun, and shoot themselves in the foot to do the right thing. When these owners know that the person who contracted it--and we've heard--I've heard from the Department of Health in my state--this resistance from people who have been informed that someone who has recently come to their place of business has tested positive, that they don't want to do what they're supposed to do in terms of reaching out to people, because they'll be closed down. There will be a long stigma attached to them. They won't be able to come back from it. And how do they know that person didn't contract it somewhere else? All of that is understandable, right? We're asking people to do something honorable, and forgive me, but I don't want to hope that a business that needs to stay open and make money is going to do the honorable thing. They also have no experience, most of them, all of them, in contact tracing. We have to hope they're doing it correctly. I'm not comfortable counting on them for that. I'm not comfortable with it.
ME: When would you tell a theater it could safely resume in-person programming?
THEM: I know it is anxiety-inducing to have to wait for the government to get its act together on this. I l live with it every day. But there is no other answer. There is no other solution. Theaters and restaurants and places like these--They are not equipped to maneuver their way through a pandemic. I think it is heroic that they are doing everything they can--
ME: Some of them.
THEM: --Some of them, yes, to try and do the right thing, but we are not far enough away--We're barely far away--from where we were in March, and we could be somewhere worse than that very easily if we push it on matters like these. If you want to do something--If you want to have a backyard barbecue, some friends over--What I would say to you is--Would you have done that in March? If the answer is 'No' then you shouldn't do it. It's that simple.
ME: Even in places like Rhode Island that have done so well?
THEM: The line between doing well and hospitals overflowing is a thin, thin line. Anyone worth their salt will tell you that. You shouldn't push it.
ME: Thank you again. I appreciate this so much.
THEM: Your welcome. Be well.
Them is an epidemiologist and a published author.
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