Two years ago, I started interviewing people in the theater world about the problems within that community.
All the subjects of the interviews remained anonymous to encourage people to speak directly and plainly without worrying that there would be consequences down the line.
(Of course, even then, some people felt like outing themselves and getting in hot water, but we're going to leave that water under another bridge.)
When I decided it was time to bring the series to a close, it was partly because I thought it had run its course, and partly because I had a new topic I wanted to tackle.
While I've had my issues with theater and the people who do it, I've never felt like I didn't belong there, whereas from the moment I came out, I've never truly felt like a part of the gay community.
To be clear, that probably has way more to do with me than the community, but it's something I wanted to explore, and I knew how I wanted to do it.
The theater interviews were always conducted with people who didn't live anywhere near me, and there was a reason for that. We like to think that if we can attach a problem to someone we know, we can fix the problem, and I've never found that to be the case. Problems within systems are not caused by any one person, but the system itself. That's the case in theater, and I believe it's the same for the LGBTQ community.
So I picked a city far from my own, and I started reaching out to gay men in that city. I spent a few months following as many of them as I could on social media, and then I began asking if I could interview them. The goal was to see if we could address some of the issues of the modern gay community and get to the heart of those issues while hopefully find some solutions.
I wasn't sure what the first interview was going to be, and then, as I was starting to outline the direction I wanted the series to take, the community exploded.
One of its most high-profile members had gone on a trip to Florida and posted photos of themselves at a party with no mask on. There was instant backlash, and it revealed a lot about where the community was at a time when all its social spaces and opportunities had been dissolved. People took sides, and as of me writing this, there are still daily posts about it on various accounts.
Last week, I spoke with the person at the center of that fiasco, and they recommended I talk to their biggest critic. This is someone who has led the charge against them on social media. After going back and forth for a few days, they agreed to speak with me.
You can check out the first interview here:
http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2021/02/the-community-and-covid.html
Finally, all the interviews are edited (some heavily) so these are not direct transcripts, but the editing is for clarity and brevity, since these conversations often go on for one to two hours.
Here's the interview:
ME: Sorry, I just spilled coffee on me five minutes before we were going to start.
PORTER: You had to change?
ME: Yeah, I know we're not filming, but I wasn't going to just sit here covered in coffee.
PORTER: You've got me wanting coffee now.
ME: I used to do these interviews in a shirt and tie to come across like I was Leslie Stahl, and now I'm in a t-shirt and my hair looks like the lead singer of Hoobastank.
PORTER: Who?
ME: See, you're too young to get that reference.
PORTER: Is that a real band?
ME: Sadly, yes. How old are you?
PORTER: I'm twenty-eight.
ME: And how long have you lived in the community you're in?
PORTER: I moved here for college and then I got here and stayed.
ME: Were you already out when you got here?
PORTER: I came out--I think I came out my second or third week in college. I knew I was gay, but it--I came here, and, there were other gay people. I had never--I think there was one other gay person in the town I'm from.
ME: Are you from a small town?
PORTER: It's not a small town, but it's a conservative area.
ME: Religious?
PORTER: Yes.
ME: So you've been living in the community for ten years?
PORTER: It would be about ten, yes.
ME: And how well do you know Liam?
PORTER: We know each other a little bit.
ME: Do you remember how you met?
PORTER: We went out on a date I think--a couple of years ago?
ME: How'd the date go?
PORTER: I found him to be, I would say, too much for me.
ME: What do you mean by too much?
PORTER: You know those people who are always on their phones, and then they put down their phones, and they look at you like 'You're still here?' That was the vibe I got. I felt like I was boring him. He'd put the phone down, ask me a question, I would answer, and he'd go right back to the phone.
ME: So there was no second date?
PORTER: No.
ME: Did you guys hook up after the first date though?
PORTER: (Laughs.) It was a bad date.
ME: That's not what I asked.
PORTER: I'd rather not say.
ME: That means you hooked up.
PORTER: Oh my god.
ME: It's fine. Sometimes you have to salvage an evening however you can.
PORTER: That's one way to look at it.
ME: How have you been doing during the pandemic?
PORTER: It's been hard. I've been working from home and I like being able to do that, but I haven't been able to see friends, see my family. That's been hard.
ME: So when you saw the photo that Liam posted from his trip, it really upset you?
PORTER: Yes. I was--Honestly, I was really mad.
ME: Were you surprised?
PORTER: That he did that? No.
ME: Why not?
PORTER: Because he doesn't have much of a personality. His personality is all online. In person, there's nothing there.
ME: What would that have to do with him going to a party without a mask on?
PORTER: Because I think all he's about is looking cute and going on trips to look like he's got such a great life. He's just a very empty person, I would say.
ME: It sounds like you don't like him?
PORTER: I didn't really think anything of him until all this started.
ME: And what do you think now?
PORTER: Oh, I think now I would say he's a bad person.
ME: What's made you go from 'He's empty' to 'He's a bad person?'
PORTER: Because people are telling him--
ME: Online?
PORTER: Online, yes. I don't know if people are telling him in person either. Clearly he doesn't have a problem with seeing people in person. I know that online people have been telling him how bad this was for him to do and, uh, he won't apologize. He won't--
ME: He did apologize.
PORTER: He apologized after he saw how much s*** he was getting for it. The first few people--and I was one of them--who said something to him about it, he got defensive.
ME: What did he say when he got defensive?
PORTER: That he followed guidelines, he got tested, all that s***. When people were saying it doesn't matter if you got tested if you're going to walk around a party with no masks on, then he started getting mean and telling all of us off, because it's his life and he can do what he wants. He acted like a child.
ME: So he doubled down?
PORTER: Yes.
ME: Did you read the interview I did with him?
PORTER: Yes, I did.
ME: What did you think about his assertion that some of the people coming after him online are just jealous of him?
PORTER: I know I'm not jealous of him.
ME: But what did you think about him saying that?
PORTER: I think he's vain. I think when all somebody has going for them is how they look then that's usually what they use against other people because in the gay community, you can get away with a lot more if you're cute. I also don't think he is all that cute, by the way. Just to put that out there.
ME: You don't think there is an element of an attractive person messing up and all the people who want to hook up with that person and can't coming after them?
PORTER: Who are you talking about?
ME: I'm saying, in general, that does happen.
PORTER: I don't know. I mean, if I think somebody's attractive and I want to hook up with them, that's usually what happens, so I have no reason to go after somebody for that reason.
ME: Everyone you've ever wanted to sleep with you've slept with?
PORTER: I've just never been in the situation you described.
ME: Okay, so that wasn't behind why you went after him so hard on the--
PORTER: I wouldn't say I went after him. My first comment was--I think it was an emoji. It wasn't even a sentence.
ME: What made you want to comment?
PORTER: I was angry.
ME: Have you commented on everyone who's done something outside of the COVID guidelines?
PORTER: Not everyone. I don't see everyone who breaks the rules.
ME: It's not really breaking the rules.
PORTER: Yes, it is.
ME: A rule would be a law. There's no law saying you can't go to Florida and go to a circuit party. If there were, there'd be no flights and no circuit parties.
PORTER: You don't think what he did was bad?
ME: I think it's very all or nothing? I think we've all done stuff that we probably shouldn't have done. So I don't think there's any point in focusing on somebody doing the right thing or the wrong thing in respect to COVID, I'm more interested in how this one particular incident is revealing other things about gay me and how we behave.
PORTER: What do you mean?
ME: Well, in his case, it was about why we feel like we have to post everything we do. In your case, it's about why we like to tear each other down online.
PORTER: I wasn't tearing him down.
ME: Okay, so I actually have screenshots of most of that conversation.
PORTER: Okay.
ME: The first couple of comments--The first one is the eyeroll emoji a few times.
PORTER: Yes.
ME: Then when he asks you if you have a problem--
PORTER: Provoking me.
ME: Well, sweetie, you dove into that--
PORTER: Don't call me, sweetie.
ME: I can call you something else if you want, but I think you'll like 'sweetie' better.
PORTER: I don't know why you want to defend--
ME: I'm not defending anyone. It's stupid to go to a party with no mask on during COVID. I do believe that. But I've done it. I haven't gone to a circuit party, but I have been indoors, with people, with no mask, since this started. So I can't really sit in judgment of anyone as far as not following guidelines goes--
PORTER: So you're as bad as him?
ME: I'm really going to need you to take that tone down by a lot.
PORTER: I'm not using a tone.
ME: You should know, I'm from Providence, so you don't want to try it.
PORTER: I said I wasn't--
ME: Sweetie, I have thrown twinks down staircases. I am not Liam. I do not put up with somebody speaking to me in a way I do not like. So I would suggest you really watch yourself.
PORTER: Okay.
ME: We can have a civilized conversation, or we can go ham. It really doesn't matter to me aside from the fact when I'm done going ham, you'll have a snake in your mailbox every day for a month.
PORTER: Is this how you talked with your other interviews?
ME: You can't talk to theater people like this. They cry too much. But you and I are from the same tribe. We speak the same language, right?
PORTER: If you say so.
ME: Great. So let's recalibrate. I'm not here to judge anybody for what they did. We've all done stupid things, whether it be COVID-related or otherwise. I'm here to talk about how we behave in the comments section as opposed to in real life.
PORTER: Okay.
ME: Because I don't think you would take the opportunity, in real life, to walk up to someone you went on a date with years ago, and tell them off the way you did in that comments section.
PORTER: That's not a gay thing. Everybody does that.
ME: See, where I think it's interesting is--If you look at other marginalized groups, it's actually way less common to see them fighting, in public, online, before they take it to private messaging, because the idea is that they don't want people from outside that community watching people inside the community tearing each other apart.
PORTER: I will say that once we--
ME: You and Liam?
PORTER: Once Liam and I were into it, and it had been going on for hours, all day, I did wish that I had sent him a message instead of commenting.
ME: But did you ever try to take it out of the comments section and into his DM's?
PORTER: No.
ME: Did you ever delete any of your comments once you felt like things had gone on for too long?
PORTER: He took the whole post down. The photo. I couldn't delete any comments after that.
ME: Would you have deleted them if he hadn't taken the post down?
PORTER: I don't know.
ME: The fourth comment you posted, after you and he had gone back and forth--
PORTER: I would like to say that some people were commenting a lot more than I was, and I--
ME: Right, and you were passive aggressively liking those comments, like a coward.
PORTER: Excuse me?
ME: That's a cowardly thing to do. Believe me, I know. I've done it. It's a '**** you' to the person.
PORTER: How is it a '**** you?'
ME: Because it's saying 'I don't really want to get into this with you, but I want you to know that I'm egging this other person on.'
PORTER: That's not how I saw it, but okay.
ME: After you posted that lameass emoji comment.
PORTER: It could've stopped there. Liam's the one who had more to say.
ME: He asked you if you had something to say.
PORTER: And I did.
ME: And you did. But by the fourth comment, you're not even talking about COVID anymore.
PORTER: I don't know what you mean by that, because I can't go back and look at the conversation.
ME: Previous to the fourth comment, Liam says 'If you don't want to go to a party, you don't have to go to a party. If I want to, that's my right.' Your response is 'You go to a party, catch COVID, bring it back here, and try hitting me up. Nice.'
PORTER: He did.
ME: But why bring that up?
PORTER: Because he was putting me at risk.
ME: He'd only be putting you at risk if you agreed to hang out with him.
PORTER: That wasn't why I said that.
ME: No, because you mentioned four other times in that thread all these times he's tried to hook up with you.
PORTER: He has.
ME: But why is that relevant to this argument?
PORTER: Because he's trying to act like he thinks I'm a dick and meanwhile he's always trying to get me to go over to his place.
ME: He can think you're a dick and still want to have sex with you. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
PORTER: If you're a slut, yeah.
ME: Ohhhhhhhh Porter. Don't do that.
PORTER: I mean--
ME: Porter.
PORTER: I don't have sex with people I don't like. I don't know why you would do that.
ME: You don't need to know why. I guarantee you people who don't like you have had sex with you.
PORTER: Why do you guarantee that?
ME: Because I can't see that many people being fond of you.
PORTER: I can't see many people being fond of you.
ME: Many aren't, and I'm not that attractive, and when I was in college, I hooked up with one of the Power Rangers, so all sorts of crazy things can happen, and it doesn't make anybody a slut. We don't say slut here. This is a no shaming zone.
PORTER: He can say anything he wants about me and you defend him, but I can't say anything back.
ME: You can defend yourself. Fight as hard as you want. But the fight was about COVID. The fight wasn't about somebody wanting to sleep with you or you not wanting to sleep with them. That's not something you can score points. Somebody at one point wanting to get you in bed has nothing to do with anything other than them wanting to get you in bed. It's not a secret weapon you can use in a comments section argument.
PORTER: I was heated. I said things I don't feel good about. People do that.
ME: Yes, they do. The point was you thought him being at a party without masks was irresponsible, right?
PORTER: Yes.
ME: But circling back, why did you attack him specifically?
PORTER: I didn't. On that day, I saw his photos--
ME: You haven't seen anyone else behaving that way?
PORTER: No.
ME: We're both friends with ________ on Instagram I noticed.
PORTER: I know ______, yeah.
ME: Small world, right?
PORTER: Yes.
ME: I notice you liked his photo on the beach in Cancun.
PORTER: And?
ME: Annnnnd he's not wearing a mask in that photo.
PORTER: He's not at a party.
ME: He's not in America.
PORTER: So?
ME: So I'm assuming he had to get on a plane to go to Cancun. Or do you think he walked there?
PORTER: He took a plane. So what?
ME: So you commented on the thread with Liam, saying 'I can't believe you even got on a plane.'
PORTER: I guess I didn't think it was a big deal that ________ did it and I did think it was that Liam did it when you add going to a party and not wearing a mask to it, but if you're trying to say I'm a hypocrite, say that. People are allowed to feel different things on different days.
ME: You know, that kind of inconsistency can be really dangerous during a pandemic.
PORTER: Oh my god.
ME: Have you ever slept with ______?
PORTER: Why would I answer that?
ME: It's okay, I asked him. You haven't.
PORTER: He lives in _______, I live in _______.
ME: You think geography is the only reason? Okay then. My point is, I think you've slept with Liam and you haven't slept with _____ so you're more likely to be nicer to the guy you want to sleep with but haven't then the guy you have slept with and don't want to sleep with again.
PORTER: That's a lot of work you put into that.
ME: Oh, wait'll you see my next trick. You're saying you're okay with _____'s photo because he's outside?
PORTER: Outside. Not at a party.
ME: So indoor parties with no masks? Inexcusable?
PORTER: Yes.
ME: Are you sure?
PORTER: Yes.
ME: By the way, when I say 'Are you sure?' that's my way of letting you know I know more than you think. Now, should I ask the question again?
PORTER: I gave you my answer.
ME: What'd you do on New Year's Eve?
PORTER: I watched a movie.
ME: Alone?
PORTER: I had a friend over and we wore masks.
ME: A friend?
PORTER: I had my friend Noah over and his boyfriend.
ME: So two friends?
PORTER: Yes.
ME: That's it?
PORTER: Yes.
ME: Masks on the whole time?
PORTER: Yes.
ME: Okay, I'm going to text you a photo. You can tell me if this is your house.
I then sent Porter a photo I had gotten from the Instagram accounts of someone who was at his house on New Year's Eve.
PORTER: I'm not sure what this is.
ME: Is that your house?
PORTER: Yes, but I've never seen this photo.
ME: That might be because you didn't even know the person who took this. They were at your house on New Year's Eve along with what looks like at least thirty other people.
PORTER: There were not that many.
ME: There were more than three.
PORTER: I can see that.
ME: And I don't see any masks.
PORTER: I did have people show up unannounced to my house that night, yes.
ME: And you kicked them out?
PORTER: I did.
ME: After how long?
PORTER: It was--We watched the ball drop and then everybody went home.
ME: Why wasn't anybody wearing masks?
PORTER: I thought everybody was, but some people were drinking and you can't drink with a mask on.
ME: Can't drink with a mask on at a circuit party either.
PORTER: I think it's a little different.
ME: Oh, it's very different. You didn't even get on a plane. You held a superspreader right in your own living room.
PORTER: Everyone who came to my house that night got tested beforehand.
ME: Everyone who was invited got tested?
PORTER: Yes.
ME: What about the party crashers?
PORTER: I made sure to ask them if they had been tested.
ME: But you don't know for sure?
PORTER: I don't know why anybody would lie about that.
ME: So you had your own little Kardashian birthday party going on?
PORTER: Nobody that night was sick and nobody has since gotten sick.
ME: Liam never got sick either.
PORTER: I really think this is unfair, because I did not know photos were taken that night.
ME: You say 'unfair,' I say 'delightful.'
PORTER: I'm not saying I feel good about that night, but I did not post anything from it.
ME: Right, and in that way, I do think you don't have the same compulsion that Liam does, but I do think for you to get on a high horse in his comments section is--to use an earlier word of yours--hypocritical.
PORTER: I don't think one party should be held against me when I'm sure Liam has been to more than one.
ME: You don't know that.
PORTER: I doubt I'm wrong.
ME: So now we're talking quantity not quality?
PORTER: I don't--Yeah, I don't know.
ME: Was any of that back-and-forth with him based on the fact that you just--don't like him?
PORTER: I don't like him. I said that.
ME: Because I feel like one way to make this situation worse is to hold different people to different standards based on whether or not they're people we like. I think you either have to hold everybody to the same standard, or just not say anything. Gay people are the only ones getting dragged anytime we do anything that breaks COVID. Straight people having parties too. Thousands of straight people just crammed themselves inside a stadium for the Super Bowl and there was a tenth of the outrage you saw after Fire Island on the 4th of July. I just wonder how much of it is this enjoyment we get out of tearing each other down.
PORTER: I mean you threatened me a second ago and this entire interview is to make me look bad. I think you should look at yourself.
ME: I'd rather not, but you're right. I'm contributing it to it. But do you agree it's a problem?
PORTER: Yes, I do.
ME: Did you go after him because you really cared that much about his trip when you had just thrown that party on New Year's Eve or did you just see an opportunity to drag him and you took it?
PORTER: It was not about him personally.
ME: This is all anonymous. You can be honest.
PORTER: I. Wow.
ME: Just be honest.
PORTER: I don't like him and I think--If he were someone else, I might not have said anything. I wouldn't have, like, cheered him on? But I don't know if I would have said something.
ME: So your intent was to tear him down, because you saw an opening to do it?
PORTER: Yes.
ME: Didn't it worry you that somebody like me--or somebody at your party--could have called you out?
PORTER: I didn't think that would happen. I don't remember there being any photos of the party.
ME: But somebody could have--
PORTER: None of the people at my party like Liam either. Noah and Elijah were the only two I invited and they invited everybody else. They wouldn't have invited people who like Liam. He's in a different circle.
ME: You do realize you're almost thirty, right?
PORTER: And?
ME: I--Never mind. Who do you think I should talk to next for this series?
PORTER: You can talk to Noah and Elijah if you want.
ME: Are they prominent members of your community?
PORTER: Um. You could say that.
ME: I get the feeling there's more to it.
PORTER: You should ask them about their engagement.
ME: They're engaged?
PORTER: They just got engaged.
ME: Oh, congratulations to them.
PORTER: Um. Sure.
ME: Is there something about the engagement that was unusual.
PORTER: You should ask them about it.
ME: That sounds like code for 'Buckle Up.'
PORTER: Oh, definitely 'Buckle Up.'
Porter does not currently have a snake in his mailbox.
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