Well, here we go again.
Two years ago, I started interviewing people in the theater world about the problems within that community.
All the subjects of the interviews remained anonymous to encourage people to speak directly and plainly without worrying that there would be consequences down the line.
(Of course, even then, some people felt like outing themselves and getting in hot water, but we're going to leave that water under another bridge.)
When I decided it was time to bring the series to a close, it was partly because I thought it had run its course, and partly because I had a new topic I wanted to tackle.
While I've had my issues with theater and the people who do it, I've never felt like I didn't belong there, whereas from the moment I came out, I've never truly felt like a part of the gay community.
To be clear, that probably has way more to do with me than the community, but it's something I wanted to explore, and I knew how I wanted to do it.
The theater interviews were always conducted with people who didn't live anywhere near me, and there was a reason for that. We like to think that if we can attach a problem to someone we know, we can fix the problem, and I've never found that to be the case. Problems within systems are not caused by any one person, but the system itself. That's the case in theater, and I believe it's the same for the LGBTQ community.
So I picked a city far from my own, and I started reaching out to gay men in that city. I spent a few months following as many of them as I could on social media, and then I began asking if I could interview them. The goal was to see if we could address some of the issues of the modern gay community and get to the heart of those issues while hopefully find some solutions.
I wasn't sure what the first interview was going to be, and then, as I was starting to outline the direction I wanted the series to take, the community exploded.
One of its most high-profile members had gone on a trip to Florida and posted photos of themselves at a party with no mask on. There was instant backlash, and it revealed a lot about where the community was at a time when all its social spaces and opportunities had been dissolved. People took sides, and as of me writing this, there are still daily posts about it on various accounts.
I wanted to talk to the man at the center of all that as my first interview in a series I'm calling "The Community." In the previous series, I used "Them" as much as possible when addressing people, but for this, it's going to be necessary for me to attach names to each person. Please be advised that I will not be using anyone's real name or anything close to it.
Also, all the interviews are edited (some heavily) so these are not direct transcripts, but the editing is for clarity and brevity, since these conversations often go on for one to two hours.
Here's the interview:
ME: I'm going to call you Liam.
LIAM: I'll be Liam.
ME: Liam, how old are you?
LIAM: I am twenty-seven years-old.
ME: And how long have you lived in (Name of City)?
LIAM: My whole life.
ME: How long have you been out?
LIAM: I came out when I was nineteen.
ME: And would you say you're pretty active in the community where you live?
LIAM: Very. Well, I was.
ME: Until COVID?
LIAM: Until COVID and then there wasn't a way to be as active as I was, um, previous to COVID, and then, everything that happened with me and the bullying online.
ME: Right, I'll get to that.
LIAM: Okay.
ME: Would you say you were a respected member of the community?
LIAM: Um, I don't know.
ME: Are there respected members of your community?
LIAM: Yes, but it depends on who you ask. I have people I think are, um, who do really good things for the community, but it could be different depending on who you ask.
ME: Do you think anybody would say you--
LIAM: I've done a lot for charity here. I'm always--I'm friendly and I try to welcome new people to the community if they're new to it, and, yeah, I would say people respect me. I thought so, I guess.
ME: Now you're not sure?
LIAM: Yes.
ME: How often did you travel prior to COVID?
LIAM: I love to travel. I'm always going places. I work for (Name of Company) and I have to travel for work, that's part of my job, but even without that, I like going all over.
ME: So was it difficult for you when COVID prevented you from doing that?
LIAM: Very. I--as soon as we realized that things like--even traveling from state-to-state wasn't something we could do anymore, because of restrictions, I felt--It was like claustrophobic is the best way to describe it. It was like, Wow, I'm going to be staying inside my apartment now for I don't know how long and I knew right away mental health was going to be a problem, because a lot of how I keep my mental health in shape is by taking trips with friends, seeing new places, that kind of thing.
ME: But you understood it was dangerous to do that?
LIAM: I did. I have to say, I said this online too, that I did not leave my apartment, when I tell you, the first three months, I didn't go anywhere. I went to the grocery store and I went--I went to, um, the drugstore, and that was it. To see my parents once, I stood outside their house. I was being really, really responsible. The trip that I--Do you want me to--
ME: Yeah, you can--
LIAM: The trip that I took I took--we're--what? Almost a year into this. I went on the trip two weeks ago.
ME: To Florida.
LIAM: Yes.
ME: How did the trip come about?
LIAM: I had a friend ask me if I wanted to go with him to, he was like me, he was having a hard time, with depression, that's a big thing, I think, at the beginning of the year, you're in, you know, the holidays are hard for some people, and he wanted to get away for, um, a weekend. Tops. So he asked if I wanted to go and I said 'Yes.' I needed to get away as well, is how I felt about it.
ME: Did you know you'd be going to this party?
LIAM: I did not. Not until we got there and we saw that someone was having a party literally five minutes from where we were staying.
ME: How did you find out about it?
LIAM: The friend I was with was looking online and saw it.
ME: So you were looking for a party to go to?
LIAM: No, I was not looking. He was.
ME: And when he asked you to go, you said 'Yes?'
LIAM: At first I said 'No,' because to be honest with you, I was not comfortable with it. Um, I let him go alone at first, and I was going to stay in the room, and then, I just--I mean, I'll be honest with you, I got bored, and I said, 'F___ it' and I went. That's how it happened, and I do take responsibility for going, but I will also say that I had gotten a COVID test before we went on the trip and so had my friend.
ME: Before we go any further, I just want to say that I know I haven't been perfect during COVID as far as quarantining and not seeing people and all of that, so this isn't about me being some holier-than-thou person coming to shame you.
LIAM: Okay, thank you.
ME: I just want to ask some of these questions, because I know right now there's a lot of noise online, and I want to give you the chance to answer those questions in a way that lets you be honest about what happened, but I think how that has to happen is you're going to have to take some accountability for--
LIAM: And I am happy to do that, yes. That's why I'm saying I do take responsibility for going.
ME: You're saying you got tested before you went there?
LIAM: Yes.
ME: But the recommendation if you're traveling is to spend time quarantining after you get wherever it is you're going, right?
LIAM: It depends where you go, I think. I don't know. You hear so many different things. I know that--I guess I would say I don't know what the point of going away is if you're going to quarantine in your hotel the whole time you're there, because we were only going to be there for a weekend.
ME: And so, some people might say 'You shouldn't be traveling at all.'
LIAM: Okay, then shut down the airlines. Or, shut them down for, um, people going on vacation. Only make it for emergencies. Shut down hotels. That's how I feel about it. You can't tell people 'Follow the law' and then they do, and you say 'There's this other law you have to follow too.'
ME: Courtesy.
LIAM: What?
ME: I think some people would say there's law and there's courtesy. So, for example, you don't have to cover your mouth when you cough or sneeze, but you do, because it's courteous.
LIAM: Yes. I get that, but I was not treated when I came back like I was not being courteous, I was being treated like a criminal.
ME: Because we're at this weird point where normally being discourteous doesn't resort in somebody else dying, so, I'll say, I agree with you. If you don't want people going on vacation, shut down the airlines and the hotels, and then they can't go on vacation, and we avoid the whole problem. I agree we're getting mixed signals, especially when you're talking about states like Florida that want to pretend COVID isn't even a thing.
LIAM: Yes.
ME: Did you know that this was the kind of party that--I should say, it was at a club, indoors.
LIAM: Yes.
ME: Was it a circuit party?
LIAM: It--Yes. I wouldn't say--That's the best way to describe it. I'll just say yes.
ME: It was a circuit party indoors and did you know that people weren't going to be wearing masks?
LIAM: I didn't know that, and actually, I brought my mask with me to the party.
ME: But you would've known there wasn't going to be social distancing at least.
LIAM: I didn't think there would be, yes.
ME: And when you got there, you have your mask on, does somebody tell you to take it off or do you take it off yourself?
LIAM: You get in there, and it's so hot. I don't know if the air was broken or what, but it was so hot, and, um, I couldn't breathe. I'll be honest with you. I could not breathe with the mask on, and usually I don't have a problem with that.
ME: How long were you there before you took it off?
LIAM: I kept it on for the first hour and then I took it off.
ME: Did you ever put it back on?
LIAM: No.
ME: How long were you at the party?
LIAM: We were there all night.
ME: I'm going to ask the next question, and you don't have to answer, but I'm not asking it to get you in trouble. I just want to get a sense of your mental state at the time.
LIAM: Okay.
ME: Were you doing any drugs or drinking at the party?
LIAM: I had a lot to drink and I will say that I took something while I was there that my friend had given me.
ME: Okay. So were you then feeling kind of invincible or--?
LIAM: Is that why I didn't wear the mask you mean?
ME: The mask is one thing, I'm thinking more about the photos you took and posted.
LIAM: I actually took those photos that night, but--Well, no, I didn't take the photos. My friend had somebody else there take the photos of us, because we're both in the photos, and they were on my friend's camera, and then the next day--
ME: Sorry to stop you. Is from friend from (Name of City) too?
LIAM: No, he's from (Another City). We met at Pride a few years ago in my city. He was visiting and we kept in touch.
ME: Sorry. So he had the photos on his phone?
LIAM: He had the photos of his phone, and he had posted one, and all these people were commenting, 'You guys look so cute. So hot.' Nothing bad to say.
ME: From his friends?
LIAM: From his friends, yeah. Or the people he's friends with on Instagram and Snapchat, and, um, I think that made me think it wasn't that big a deal.
ME: That you were in the photos, indoors, at a club, with no mask on?
LIAM: Yeah.
ME: With a lot of people around you?
LIAM: Yes.
ME: So then, did you--
LIAM: I asked him to send me the photos. He sent me five. I posted two.
ME: And right away--
LIAM: Everybody started in on me.
ME: The people that you know.
LIAM: Yeah, and, that was the part I still find so funny, like, he didn't get any--He still hasn't had anybody coming for him, and meanwhile, I do the exact same thing, and everybody is mad. It's like, 'F___, I should just move.'
ME: Did you think people were overreacting or do you think that maybe the people he's friends with are just doing the same thing so they're not going to be phased by it?
LIAM: Doing the same thing like--
ME: Going to parties, doing--
LIAM: I know people who go to parties too. I don't think that's it.
ME: Do you know anyone who went to parties during COVID or--
LIAM: I know people who went to restaurants. Over the summer I know people who were having outdoor parties, and that's why I was like--I'm not saying I'm doing the right thing, but this is, um, a little bit worse than doing all that. You're not supposed to be doing any of that, but none of those people are getting yelled at or attacked, and I'm the worst person in the world.
ME: But did you think that was a possibility when you posted the photo?
LIAM: I thought that a few people might say something. Not everybody I've ever met in my life.
ME: Do you think people were just mad at you for what you did or was it something else?
LIAM: I think some of it is jealousy, because a lot of the people commenting are people who, um, do not get along with me in the community regardless of this. There are people who are--
ME: But when you say jealous--?
LIAM: Jealous of, because, um--
ME: Listen, it's anonymous, so just say whatever you want to say.
LIAM: Okay, well, I think for some people, it's because of how I look.
ME: You consider yourself to be a good-looking guy?
LIAM: Yes. You don't?
ME: No, you're very attractive.
LIAM: Thank you. I think that when a person who is--who looks like me makes a mistake, you have more people--more gay people--wanting to come after them, because of jealousy, yes. I think there were a lot of people attacking me who have also, in the past, tried to ask me out, tried to sleep with me, and I've said 'No' and now they have a reason to come after me, when really they're just bitter, I do think that. Yes.
ME: So you think they had ulterior motives?
LIAM: Yes.
ME: Can I ask though, and it's why I wanted to ask about the state you were in when you posted the photo--
LIAM: Yes.
ME: You had to have known that if you didn't post the photo, it's very unlikely anybody would have known you went to the party, or that you even posted that you were on vacation.
LIAM: No, they would've known, because I had posted that I was going away.
ME: How many posts did you make about the trip?
LIAM: Um, a lot. I always do.
ME: Why?
LIAM: Because--I don't know. That's what I do.
ME: Under normal circumstances, you just post a lot when you go away.
LIAM: Yes.
ME: But in these circumstances, wouldn't it have been smarter to just not say anything at all?
LIAM: But why? It wasn't illegal for me to go away.
ME: But you had to know that you could probably keep the whole thing a secret--
LIAM: But why keep it a secret? I wasn't breaking the law. I didn't steal the plane ticket.
ME: Okay, so what about from the perspective of--If I just don't say anything, it'll be one less headache I have to deal with if this gets out and people get mad, because you had to know, people have been getting really angry about this kind of thing?
LIAM: I didn't feel like I had anything to be ashamed about.
ME: Then let's talk specifically about posting a photo of you with no mask on, because you had to know, if nothing else, that photo was going to get a lot of backlash?
LIAM: Yes, and I regret posting that one photo, and I have since taken it down.
ME: But why put it up in the first place?
LIAM: Like I said, I didn't think it would get the kind of response it got.
ME: Can I ask you--almost as a side question, because I want to talk more about this in other interviews--Would you go on a vacation, theoretically, if you couldn't post about it at all?
LIAM: I don't know, why?
ME: I wonder if the new idea behind gay vacations is--If we can't post about it, it didn't happen?
LIAM: (Laughs.) Um, I like to take photos of--when I'm having a good time. Lots of people do that. Straight people do it too.
ME: Right, but I'm wondering if posting disease might be a real thing.
LIAM: I don't think it's a disease.
ME: Or an addiction.
LIAM: I don't think it's that either.
ME: But--you're a smart person, right?
LIAM: I think so.
ME: I just can't believe you wouldn't know, intellectually, that posting that photo was really stupid of you, but that you looked really good in it, your friend was getting all this validation from it from his followers, and you wanted in on that?
LIAM: I liked the photo and I wanted to post it.
ME: But let's say we could go back in time and I could say to you 'You're going to do this whole trip over, but this time, you can't post anything. Make all the mistakes you want, because you're never going to post about any of it, and nobody is ever going to know.' Would you still want to go on the trip? Honestly?
LIAM: That trip? No. Because I didn't ultimately have a good time.
ME: But if I let you post about it, you'd still go?
LIAM: Yes.
ME: Why?
LIAM: Because then I got something out of it.
ME: What?
LIAM: Memories. Fun memories.
ME: But you just said you didn't have fun.
LIAM: I didn't have fun but I made fun memories.
ME: I'm so confused. How do you make fun memories when you're not having fun?
LIAM: Because you film yourself getting ready. You film yourself getting dressed. You get photos on the plane. Photos at the club.
ME: But those aren't memories. Those are photos.
LIAM: But that's how I remember the trip. If you're not going to let me take photos or videos then I only remember what I remember about not having any fun.
ME: So then when you say traveling is good for your mental health--
LIAM: Yes.
ME: Is it the traveling itself, the meeting new people, seeing new places, or is it the documentation of all of that?
LIAM: Um.
ME: And the validation that comes from the documentation?
LIAM: I do have fun on some of the trips I take.
ME: Most of them?
LIAM: Um. Some of them. It's a lot of work because you have to pack and do the airport and security so it's not like you just magically go somewhere. There's getting there and then there's being there, and my friend on this trip got really drunk and I had to take care of him for the rest of the time we were there, and when things like that happen, it's hard to have fun.
ME: So if I took away any ability you had to take photos or videos when you're traveling, would you travel as much?
LIAM: No.
ME: All right.
LIAM: (Laughter.) But I would also just die probably.
ME: Really?
LIAM: Yes, because that's what I love.
ME: You love the documenting.
LIAM: Yes.
ME: And who is the documenting for?
LIAM: For me.
ME: But that's not true.
LIAM: It is.
ME: It's not though, because, and I'm guilty of this too, don't get me wrong, but if I were to say 'Me taking a bathroom mirror selfie where I look good is for me' that's only true if I take that photo and keep it in my phone where nobody else can see it. When I put it online, it's for someone else.
LIAM: No, it's still for me.
ME: Because people tell you that you look good and--
LIAM: And that's nice. It feels good.
ME: But when you take a photo of a hotel room you're staying in, who is that for? Because you're not going to feel like somebody's paying you a compliment if they like the photo?
LIAM: I don't know what you mean.
ME: You talked about jealousy earlier. When you go on these vacations, and you document all of it, and how it looks like you're having so much fun, even if you're not, is it to make other people jealous?
(Silence.)
LIAM: Um, I'm sure that might be part of it.
ME: So then if you're right and people are attacking you because they're jealous of you, for whatever reason, couldn't it also be that you tried to make them jealous by presenting to them this version of your life, and so they're just behaving exactly the way you wanted them to in the first place?
LIAM: I would not want--I wouldn't make somebody attack me.
ME: But if you succeed, and you make people jealous, jealous people don't tend to just cry and privately sob in their bedrooms feeling bad about themselves, jealousy makes you angry. You get angry.
LIAM: I can't help it if people get angry.
ME: But you were trying to make them angry.
LIAM: No, I wasn't.
ME: So you wanted them to be jealous and sad, not jealous and angry?
LIAM: I can't control how anybody feels.
ME: But you're trying to?
LIAM: Not really.
ME: At any point, when people were explaining to you how that photo made them angry, and it didn't look like all of it was jealousy, some people were just upset, because they haven't left their apartments in almost a year, and I'm not saying that's me, but I think there were people on some of the threads I saw, who were just upset and frustrated, and you weren't apologizing to those people.
LIAM: I was apologizing.
ME: You were saying 'I'm sorry, but--'
LIAM: I was explaining what had happened.
ME What happened was you made a bunch of bad decisions and then you outed yourself make those decisions. I mean, there's not a lot of nuance there.
LIAM: It was nothing illegal.
ME: But there's a lot of grey area between 'Legal' and 'The Right Thing to Do.'
LIAM: Like how you went to a restaurant and posted about it?
ME: Yes, wrong of me. Totally.
LIAM: I don't think so.
ME: I think--probably so.
LIAM: Because you did what you were allowed to do?
ME: Because I didn't have to. I never have to post about anything and yet I constantly do because my life is a never-ending quest for validation. I'm asking if that might also be true of you?
LIAM: No, because I don't need other people to validate me.
ME: Would you delete your Instagram?
LIAM: I have.
ME: Then why have you looked at your phone ten times since we started talking?
LIAM: I have other things on my phone.
ME: Like what?
LIAM: I have other stuff to look at.
ME: Do you have an alternate Instagram account?
LIAM: No.
ME: You sure?
LIAM: I have an old one that I check sometimes, but that's it.
ME: Have you looked at that account since we started talking?
LIAM: Once.
ME: And you still have Twitter and Snapchat?
LIAM: Yes.
ME: And Facebook?
LIAM: I'm getting rid of my Facebook.
ME: When?
LIAM: Um. I don't know.
ME: Did you quarantine after you got home?
LIAM: Yes.
ME: Did you get tested after you got home?
LIAM: Yes.
ME: Did your friend quarantine and get tested?
LIAM: I don't know. He's not my boyfriend. We're just friends.
ME: Did you ask him if he did?
LIAM: No. We haven't talked, because I'm mad at him.
ME: For what?
LIAM: For getting drunk and making me take care of him.
ME: Back to what I was saying, do you think you could apologize and just say--'I was wrong. Point blank. No further explanation.'
LIAM: But I want people to know the whole story.
ME: But even when you hear the whole story, there's nothing in there that makes you look less bad.
LIAM: I didn't throw the party.
ME: No, I mean, there are people in the world-at-large who are doing worse things than you, but we're not talking about them, we're talking about you.
LIAM: Yes, I'm getting punished because I agreed to talk to people about this, when a lot of people are doing the wrong thing and they're like 'I don't care what you have to say. Bye.'
ME: Yes, you're right, those people do exist.
LIAM: Yes.
ME: But you don't want to emulate those people, right?
LIAM: Do I want to what?
ME: Emulate them?
LIAM: No, but I feel like they must have an easier life.
ME: Why do you think that?
LIAM: Because they just don't care.
ME: Or they've put themselves in a bubble with other people who enable them and don't hold them accountable?
LIAM: They might. I don't know.
ME: How much did you pay to get into the party?
LIAM: It was--The cover was ninety-eight I think.
ME: Ninety-eight dollars?
LIAM: Yeah. Ninety-eight or ninety, I don't remember. It was more if you bought at the door.
ME: So you didn't buy at the door?
LIAM: No.
ME: You bought in advance?
LIAM: I--I bought online.
ME: In advance?
LIAM: Before getting there, yes, I bought because I didn't want to get there and have it be sold out.
ME: So you bought that night?
LIAM: No, I bought a ticket the day before.
ME: But wasn't the party the first night you got there?
LIAM: It was the night of, but not the day of.
ME: Right, but Liam, you said--your story was that you got there, your friend is on the computer, he sees the party, he buys a ticket, he goes, and you decide last minute to go.
LIAM: I got the ticket ahead of time, but I didn't decide to go until the last minute.
ME: But you knew about the party.
LIAM: He told me about it and then I bought the ticket.
ME: Prior to you both even getting there though.
LIAM: I don't remember. Everything was really last minute.
ME: So you're saying you don't remember buying a ticket to this party before you even left to go on the trip?
LIAM: I must have, but I don't remember. Are we almost done?
ME: Yeah, I think we're done.
LIAM: Okay. Thank you for talking to me. I hope this goes well for you.
ME: Yeah, I'm going to be talking to a lot more people from (Name of City) so I'm sure we'll have a chance to talk again.
LIAM: We could, but I'm really busy with all these things I have going on, so I don't know.
ME: Before I let you go though, do you have anybody you think I should talk to next?
LIAM: You could talk to--I think, honestly, you should talk to Porter. He's the one who's been harassing me the most online and I would just like to know how he justifies that.
ME: Porter?
LIAM: Yes.
ME: I've seen him on the threads.
LIAM: He's a very big--I'll let you talk to him, but I think you'll see that he's a very big liar, judgmental, like you said--Holier than thou. That's how he is. You should talk to him.
ME: I'll give it my best shot. Thank you.
LIAM: Thank you.
Liam has still not deleted his Facebook account.
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