Two years ago, I started interviewing people in the theater world about the problems within that community.
All the subjects of the interviews remained anonymous to encourage people to speak directly and plainly without worrying that there would be consequences down the line.
(Of course, even then, some people felt like outing themselves and getting in hot water, but we're going to leave that water under another bridge.)
When I decided it was time to bring the series to a close, it was partly because I thought it had run its course, and partly because I had a new topic I wanted to tackle.
While I've had my issues with theater and the people who do it, I've never felt like I didn't belong there, whereas from the moment I came out, I've never truly felt like a part of the gay community.
To be clear, that probably has way more to do with me than the community, but it's something I wanted to explore, and I knew how I wanted to do it.
The theater interviews were always conducted with people who didn't live anywhere near me, and there was a reason for that. We like to think that if we can attach a problem to someone we know, we can fix the problem, and I've never found that to be the case. Problems within systems are not caused by any one person, but the system itself. That's the case in theater, and I believe it's the same for the LGBTQ community.
So I picked a city far from my own, and I started reaching out to gay men in that city. I spent a few months following as many of them as I could on social media, and then I began asking if I could interview them. The goal was to see if we could address some of the issues of the modern gay community and get to the heart of those issues while hopefully find some solutions.
Today I'll be speaking with "Ben." He's been a sex worker for three years, but began telling his friends about his work shortly after the pandemic began. How the Community reacted is the subject of our conversation today.
Here's the interview:
ME: How did you start?
BEN: I had been working as a lawyer--I was working at a well-known firm in the area. I was your typical young professional.
ME: Because you're how old?
BEN: Now I'm twenty-nine. At the time, I was twenty-six.
ME: And how were you regarded in the community?
BEN: Without sounding arrogant, I would say that I was popular in the community. I got asked out on a lot of dates. I had two proposals.
ME: Wow.
BEN: (Laughs.) I know that people looked at me and my life and thought that I had it all going on. Back then, my average day was working out, going to work, working all day into the night, going out to a nice restaurant, and whenever I was off I would go on trips and post about all of it.
ME: Was it important for you that people know you had this amazing life?
BEN: Yes, but it wasn't an amazing life. That was the funny part. I wasn't happy. I was depressed. I was being medicated for depression. I couldn't hold down a relationship.
ME: Because of your work?
BEN: No, I don't think that was it, because when I would date, I would date guys who were working just as much as I was. I think it was that I was all about perfection. I wanted the perfect body. I wanted the perfect apartment. The perfect boyfriend. That meant nobody could measure up. I'd meet a guy who was the best looking guy you'd ever seen, but he didn't have the career. I'd meet a guy that had a great career, but he's not great at social media or he's not on social media at all. People thought I had it all and so I felt like I needed to have it all, and that's impossible.
ME: How does somebody who is that concerned with how people perceive them get involved in sex work which still has a lot of stigmas attached to it?
BEN: My lifestyle. I was living way beyond my means.
ME: That's becoming a running theme in these interviews.
BEN: I was making a good living, but when you want to live in a great apartment and not just a nice apartment, and you want to go on trips every time you have a weekend off, and not just a trip, but trips to Europe, trips to Brazil, and you have to eat at the best restaurants every single night, you run up debt, and you have to look for ways to pay that down. How do you do that? I can't take a part-time job. I'm already working all the time. A friend of mine told me that they were making money--and this was not a friend that--like you said, there is a stigma attached about who does this kind of work. This friend was another lawyer, even more, uh, further along in their career than I was, and, uh, they told me they were doing shows, on camera, online, and they were making good money from it. They were not showing their face. I laughed at first. I told them I wouldn't be comfortable doing that. But, uh, you know--They told me to try it. See how I did. I tried it, and I did very well, and I--I kept going.
ME: How much were you making?
BEN: Within a year, I was making more than what I was pulling in at my day job.
ME: Wow.
BEN: I was dedicating a lot of time to it, and I realized that it's because I was enjoying it. When I was doing shows or talking to clients, I was having a great time and I felt happy. Then I'd go to work, and I was even more miserable.
ME: So you quit?
BEN: I quit.
ME: Did you tell your friends you quit?
BEN: No.
ME: Why not?
BEN: Because I didn't want them asking me how I was making money after that.
ME: Were you nervous quitting your job?
BEN: At first, but right away, I was saving. I started making more and more. I didn't want to do anything in-person at first, but then I did it, and I had a group of guys I would see on a regular basis, and that became lucrative for me. Once I had a nest egg stashed away, I wasn't nervous anymore, and also, after that, I knew that it wasn't good for me to be in that environment.
ME: At the law firm?
BEN: Yeah. I knew even if this work dried up, I couldn't go back there. It was like--I saw the light.
ME: Did your mood improve once you started doing it?
BEN: Oh yeah.
ME: Did people notice?
BEN: Yes. I told them I was meditating.
ME: (Laughs.) Okay then.
BEN: I had people asking me for meditation suggestions because I--All of a sudden, I was calm. I was happy. I was glowing.
ME: Yeah, because you're rich.
BEN: (Laughs.) No!
ME: I'm joking.
BEN: The funny thing is, I started scaling back my life. I didn't want the apartment that was costing me a fortune. I didn't need to go away as much. I didn't even--I don't know. I felt like I didn't have anything to prove.
ME: Why do you think that is?
BEN: Because it was like The Matrix. I realized it was all bulls***. I woke up. I worked and worked and worked to have enough and I never had enough doing what I was told was respectable work, right? I'm doing this job, because this job makes me money and people respect money. But we don't respect this other kind of work that makes you so much more money and is so much more, uh--
ME: Fulfilling?
BEN: Yes.
ME: Would you say you've a very sexual person?
BEN: I like sex, but I wouldn't say I was a--a highly sexual person. No.
ME: You must have been spending a lot of time on this to make the kind of money you were making.
BEN: Yeah, I don't want to make it sound like it's easy. It's a job. It really is. We used to say, at the firm I worked at, you say 'career' not 'job.' This is a career. I take it that seriously.
ME: Do you have to work out more?
BEN: I work out less.
ME: Really?
BEN: Yeah. Because I noticed that people didn't care if I had abs or not. I think, for the people who were subscribing to my OnlyFans and buying me things, they want me to have a good body, but they don't care if I have a perfect body.
ME: I was saying to a friend recently that we put so much focus on good abs over everything else, and I wonder if it's because abs are the hardest thing to get?
BEN: That's what it is.
ME: It's about who's the best at working out. Because you can have the best arms, but if you don't have those rippling abs, it's like--Oh, do they really work out?
BEN: When I would go to the gym with my friends, guys would walk by us with the most incredible legs or shoulders, and everyone was focused on the guy with the six pack.
ME: So now you work out less?
BEN: Now I work out a normal number of times a week. It's not my whole life.
ME: What made you decide to come out to your friends as a sex worker?
BEN: When the pandemic hit, I felt that it was a necessity.
ME: Why?
BEN: Because I needed to promote what I do. I saw people doing well because they were on their main social media accounts, their main Twitter accounts, talking about doing this work and getting friends and people they know to sign up, whereas I had always kept everything separate.
ME: Why did you keep it separate?
BEN: I was worried people would judge me for it.
ME: Because you still had all the friends you had back when you were the top-tier elite gays of the community?
BEN: Yes.
ME: Did you ever hear anybody say anything about sex work that was derogatory?
BEN: All the time.
ME: What would you hear people say?
BEN: One of my friend friends, my good friends, stopped dating someone because they were posting too many, uh, inappropriate photos online.
ME: Like naked photos?
BEN: Not even naked. Just underwear photos.
ME: And he didn't want to date someone like that?
BEN: Yes. And this was someone who would always post shirtless gym selfies.
ME: So that's acceptable, but underwear photos aren't?
BEN: Yes. Context was important to him, I guess. I never pressed him on it.
ME: You never stood up for the other guy?
BEN: No, because I didn't want to out myself.
ME: What were other things they would say?
BEN: They couldn't understand how someone could ever do that. How someone who did that would never have a career. Never have a long-term relationship.
ME: Why do you think they had these perceptions of that kind of work? Is it societal?
BEN: Some of it is societal. I think some of it is that a few of them would love to be that comfortable in their sexuality and in their body and, because they do have this idea that success is being more chaste and only showing people your body when you have a speedo on on a private yacht on vacation, then it's all about rules and breaking the rules. You have to make money, but you have to make money the way everyone tells you it's acceptable to make money. I think, for some of them, sex work was cutting the line or cheating. It's monetizing this thing that they know has value, but it loses value if you attach money to it.
ME: There are a lot of contradictions there.
BEN: That's why, once you get to the point where you go, this is stupid and I'm just going to do it, and I don't care--It's a big relief, because you don't have to deal with all those rules.
ME: What happened when you went public?
BEN: I lost every single friend but one.
ME: Are you kidding?
BEN: No.
ME: Did any of them talk to you about it?
BEN: One told I needed to get help.
ME: What kind of help?
BEN: Like mental health help.
ME: Wow.
BEN: I told them I was already in therapy and my therapist knows that I do sex work, and doesn't see anything wrong with it.
ME: What did they say?
BEN: They didn't say anything after that.
ME: That must have hurt. To lose all those people.
BEN: I'll be honest with you. One friend is more than I thought would stick around. I was pleasantly surprised that one of them stuck around.
ME: Do you know why that one person stuck around?
BEN: They were doing it too.
ME: (Laughs.) Really?
BEN: Yup. Privately. Not as much as I was doing it, but yeah.
ME: Were any of them just angry that you had lied to them about it?
BEN: No. Nobody pretended that was it. They were perfectly happy to let me know that it was about what I was doing.
ME: And they didn't want to be friends with someone doing that kind of work?
BEN: Yes.
ME: Did you receive any negativity online?
BEN: Yes.
ME: From people in the community?
BEN: Yes.
ME: People you knew?
BEN: Yes. It was all in everybody's DM's, but people would send me screenshots of what people were saying about how 'He acts like he's better than everybody else but look what he's doing.'
ME: I'm sorry.
BEN: You don't have to be sorry. I did act like I was better than everybody else. What I have a problem with is--Does sex work make me worse than other people? If you're saying that I acted like a snob when it comes to sex, and you think that makes me a hypocrite, that's fair. If you're mad that I didn't **** you and you told yourself it was because you weren't in my league and then you find out that I do sex work and you think that means I am in your league for the right price, then you're mistaken, because I don't just sleep with anybody. Sex workers are not people who will sleep with anybody for the right price. Most of the other people I know who do this work still have Do's and Don't's.
ME: Did anybody you know offer you money for sex after they found out what you do?
BEN: Yes.
ME: So when you say 'No' to those people, it's because--
BEN: It's because, uh, well, to be blunt about it, the people that get face time with me pay a lot for it, and the people I know who were messaging me can't afford that, but with some of them, I don't like them and I didn't like how they approached me when they found out what I did, and I know that if I did do that with someone here that they wouldn't even be paying for sex, they'd be paying for the privilege of going around and telling everybody they slept with me, and the way I look at it is, you can do that without booking me. You'll be lying, but go ahead. Some people will believe you. Don't waste your money. Just say what you want to say. Gay men do that all the time anyway.
ME: I feel like it's stating the obvious to say you must have experienced a lot of hypocrisy at the time?
BEN: Yes. I had people sending me unsolicited messages about how I was ruining any chance I would have of having a law career again, and those same people would turn around and sign up for my OnlyFans.
ME: And you didn't want a law career anymore.
BEN: That's right.
ME: What was harder--coming out as a sex worker or coming out as a gay man?
BEN: A sex worker.
ME: Really?
BEN: Yes. Because when you come out as a gay man, you have a--A community, right? When you come out as a sex worker, there is a community for it, but it's a community that, until recently I would say, is still in the shadows. When the pandemic hit, people started becoming more public about the work, and I think we're seeing a change in how people look at that kind of work, but we don't know the long-term repercussions of that. I still hear people saying they wouldn't hire someone at their place of business who posts photos that they think are not appropriate. I still see guys saying they wouldn't date guys who do sex work.
ME: I saw a guy recently post that he wouldn't date anyone on OnlyFans.
BEN: Yes.
ME: That particular guy should worry more about how bad he is in bed, but I guess I think if he only hooks up with inexperienced bottoms, he'll never have to worry about it.
BEN: (Laughs.) Wow.
ME: He's a prick. Two biceps and a tailored suit and some guys think they're Ronan Farrow.
BEN: I knew lots of guys like that.
ME: Do you miss any of the friends you lost?
BEN: No.
ME: Do you still see them?
BEN: Not now, because we're not going out like we were, but I'm sure I will.
ME: What will you say if you see them?
BEN: I don't know. I haven't thought about it.
ME: How is your work going?
BEN: Better than ever. I'm very lucky.
ME: Do you think part of the negativity you and other sex workers face is that, at the end of the day, we're all men, and we all place this insane value on purity?
BEN: Purity and the idea that a guy you should want to be with is someone who everybody wants and nobody has had.
ME: Exactly.
BEN: You should see what happens when a new guy moves here. They're like gold. Because everybody wants to date the guy nobody else has dated or slept with.
ME: It's the same way here.
BEN: It must be everywhere.
ME: It's men doing to other men what straight men do to women except we're allowed to do it, because it's not considered sexist.
BEN: Look, I used to do it. I didn't want to date a guy if I knew my friend or my friends had hooked up with him.
ME: Same. I always say with these blogs that I'm not trying to say I'm better than any of the people I'm criticizing. I've done most of the things I'm talking about, and so this is kind of penance.
BEN: (Laughs.) Yes.
ME: Have you ever transcribed three hours of a conversation? There is no Hell hotter than that.
BEN: Have you ever paid for sex?
ME: No.
BEN: Would you?
ME: No, but not because I have a thing about it. It's--What I would always get out of sex was the 'Oh my god, this person wants to have sex with me!' If I know you're only there because I paid you, I get nothing out of it. It eliminates the self-esteem boost.
BEN: I get that. But should that be where you were getting your self-esteem from?
ME: No. It's wildly unhealthy. That's what I talk to my therapist about.
BEN: (Laughs.) Now would you have sex with someone for money?
ME: Who on earth would pay to have sex with me?
BEN: (Laughs.) That's sad. Don't say that.
ME: I look like the Young Sheldon version of Rivers Cuomo.
BEN: No, you look like Clark Kent.
ME: Notice how people always say Clark Kent, but never Superman.
BEN: You could look like Superman. Put on the suit.
ME: I have a photo of me in a Superman costume.
BEN: Can you send it to me?
ME: Maybe. How much is it worth to you?
BEN: (Laughs.) Well-played.
ME: Can I ask a really lame question that I can use for promotional purposes?
BEN: Sure.
ME: Do you have any famous clients?
BEN: Do you watch Queer Eye?
ME: Um. Yes.
(Silence.)
ME: Wait, old cast or new cast?
BEN: I can't say.
ME: Would you tell me about the...experience?
BEN: Can we talk about that on your blog?
ME: Uh. I don't know. We normally don't do NSFW stuff on here.
BEN: You need to start an OnlyFans.
ME: OnlyFans but for gossip.
BEN: (Laughs.) Yes.
ME: But you would talk about the experience as long as you didn't give away which one of the guys it was?
BEN: Yes, because I don't think you could guess who it was from what he was...into, and I haven't spoken to him since. It's been awhile.
ME: Okay, I will figure out a way to use this to my advantage.
BEN: See, you're already getting the hang of this.
ME: We can play twenty questions.
BEN: We'll have to negotiate the number of questions.
ME: Will you tell me who it is once I turn the recorder off?
BEN: Will you tell me the name of The Wolf?
ME: I didn't know you read that.
BEN: I did.
ME: I really can't tell you.
BEN: I respect that.
ME: We both have to stick to our principles.
BEN: I know. It can't all be fun.
Ben is currently spending time with a new group of friends and he's been dating the same guy for the past four months.
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