Two years ago, I started interviewing people in the theater world about the problems within that community.
All the subjects of the interviews remained anonymous to encourage people to speak directly and plainly without worrying that there would be consequences down the line.
(Of course, even then, some people felt like outing themselves and getting in hot water, but we're going to leave that water under another bridge.)
When I decided it was time to bring the series to a close, it was partly because I thought it had run its course, and partly because I had a new topic I wanted to tackle.
While I've had my issues with theater and the people who do it, I've never felt like I didn't belong there, whereas from the moment I came out, I've never truly felt like a part of the gay community.
To be clear, that probably has way more to do with me than the community, but it's something I wanted to explore, and I knew how I wanted to do it.
The theater interviews were always conducted with people who didn't live anywhere near me, and there was a reason for that. We like to think that if we can attach a problem to someone we know, we can fix the problem, and I've never found that to be the case. Problems within systems are not caused by any one person, but the system itself. That's the case in theater, and I believe it's the same for the LGBTQ community.
So I picked a city far from my own, and I started reaching out to gay men in that city. I spent a few months following as many of them as I could on social media, and then I began asking if I could interview them. The goal was to see if we could address some of the issues of the modern gay community and get to the heart of those issues while hopefully find some solutions.
This week is a follow-up from last week's interview with "Mark." If you haven't read that, click on this link http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-community-and-third-man.html
Today I'll be speaking with "Alex" and "Jacob." Usually I don't talk to more than one person at once, but this their request.
Here's the interview:
ME: Are you two in the same room?
JACOB: No, I'm on my laptop in the living room and he's in his office.
ALEX: Hi.
ME: Hi Alex.
JACOB: I didn't like the way it looked when we were on the same computer so--
ALEX: And I might have to jump off for a work call.
ME: Oh okay, I'll keep that in mind.
JACOB: He won't need to go. They can live without him for an hour. He's always working.
ALEX: I'm always at work.
ME: Now, the plan was not to interview you both at the same time.
JACOB: Yes, we know.
ME: What made you want to request that I speak to the two of you at the same time?
JACOB: We felt--after reading your conversation with Mark--and, um, we're both friends with you on Facebook--
ME: Yes.
JACOB: We were, quite frankly, taken aback by some of the judgment that was coming out of the--the response to that? I know, for me, it was triggering as someone who was bullied in school and has been bullied in my life to see people attacking me like that--
ME: Well, they don't know who you are.
JACOB: Yes, but they were talking about me personally and my life.
ME: You know, you always have the option to not read the comments.
JACOB: I--
ME: I actually have a big problem with you calling it bullying.
JACOB: Why?
ME: Because like a hundred percent of gay men, I've also been bullied at times growing up, and I don' think people saying mean things about you in a comments section is bullying.
JACOB: That's your opinion.
ME: Sweetie, I don't know what your bullying experience looked like, but when I was getting picked on as a kid--
JACOB: That's--
ME: Not finished. When I was getting picked on as a kid, there was no point where you could opt out of participating in the bullying. You couldn't close the laptop and walk away. Now, I know Twitter teaches people your age that people saying mean things about you online is bullying, but it's not, because you can log off. That's an option you have.
JACOB: So people should be allowed to say whatever they want about you online?
ME: No, but you do have a choice regarding how much you want to see what they have to say. I'll give you that it might be wrong, but I don't know if I'd call it bullying.
JACOB: I get how you would feel that way because I think you do a lot of bullying yourself.
ME: Again, not sure you're using that word correctly.
JACOB: I think I am.
ME: We can table the bullying discussion for now if you want.
JACOB: I was answering your question about why we wanted to--
ME: Who's we? Are you an adult?
JACOB: Yes, I'm an adult.
ME: Alex, you an adult? You breathing, babe? You're very quiet.
ALEX: I'm here.
ME: Okay, so you're two adults. You don't need to say 'we.' You're not the borg. You're individuals.
JACOB: That's how people in relationships talk.
ME: I have never said the word 'We' in my life when talking about myself and the person I was dating.
JACOB: Then you might not have been in healthy relationships.
ME: You can come to me in ten years if you and Alex are still together and tell me that, sweetie.
JACOB: We plan on being together a lot longer than ten years.
ME: And it's been how long now?
JACOB: Long enough for me to know that Alex is my soulmate.
ME: You know, Mark said you weren't confrontational, but I'm getting the feeling that's not the case.
JACOB: I've gotten a lot better at speaking up for myself.
ME: Good. Then this is going to be more fun than I thought.
ALEX: We wanted to talk to you together--
ME: Oh, he speaks.
ALEX: (Laughs.) Um, we wanted to talk to you together, because we wanted to feel good about how we're represented.
ME: You can't represent yourselves well individually?
JACOB: We're representing--
ME: I wasn't asking you. Alex? Can you represent yourself as an individual?
ALEX: Yes.
ME: Good. Then let's start with you. Where did you first talk to Jacob?
ALEX: Where?
ME: Yes. Where. Mark said you told him Instagram?
ALEX: We talked on Instagram, yes.
ME: How long were you two talking before you asked Mark if you could invite him over?
ALEX: Only a few days. Mark and I had been exploring the idea of hanging out with other guys.
ME: For sex?
ALEX: Uh. Yes.
ME: Good. Use big boy language.
JACOB: You don't need to have a tone about it.
ME: You're the one who set the tone, Jacob.
JACOB: I was not--
ME: You set the tone, sweetie. I did not. Alex, how long after Jake came over did you start to think you wanted a relationship with him?
ALEX: He stayed. He didn't go home, so, I would say, I knew that we connected right away.
ME: Jacob, did you also connect with Mark?
JACOB: Oh, I can talk?
ME: Yes.
JACOB: Okay, great. I did connect with Mark but not in the same way I connected with Alex.
ME: Why was that?
JACOB: Some people you have a stronger connection with. I don't know why.
ME: Is it because Alex owned the house?
JACOB: (Laughs.) No.
ME: He makes more than Mark does though.
JACOB: I didn't know that.
ME: Yes, you did.
JACOB: I didn't.
ME: So in the conversation where he was asking you to come over, when he was talking about his relationship with Mark, he didn't say 'I'm the one who makes all the money?'
JACOB: I don't remember him saying that.
ME: I can send you screenshots if you want.
ALEX: How would you have screenshots?
ME: Alex, remember, you gave Mark your passwords and before you changed it, he went in and took screenshots of allllll your conversations with Jacob.
JACOB: Then that's stolen information.
ME: Call the FBI. But that's where we are. I have all your conversations. Now, let's start again. Where did you two start talking?
(Silence.)
ME: Okay, I'll answer--was it a website for men looking to be taken care of financially?
JACOB: I was on a website like that, but we became friends first on Instagram, then he--
ME: Alex.
JACOB: Alex saw me on that website and we talked on there and went back to Instagram.
ME: Alex, why would you be on a website talking to guys who need to be financially supported?
ALEX: I was looking around.
ME: I mean, to be clear, you weren't cheating. This isn't about cheating. You and Mark were open. Mark confirms that as well. It's more about--That website isn't where you would go if you wanted to just have a guy come over for the night. That's if you're looking for, I mean, pardon me, but--a sugar baby.
JACOB: Not really.
ME: There's a category called 'Sugar Babies.' Jacob, you were in that category.
JACOB: There are other reasons someone can have for being on there.
ME: Did you two work something out where you knew Jacob was going to stay longer than the one night?
ALEX: Jacob had been kicked out of his house when we were talking and he needed a place to stay.
ME: So you offered to let him stay with you past that first night?
ALEX: Yes.
ME: Did Mark know that was the plan?
(Silence.)
ME: No, he didn't. When did you two start talking about removing him from the relationship?
ALEX: I love Mark, but things weren't working.
ME: And so you talked to him about ending the relationship and moving forward with Jacob?
ALEX: I told him I was unhappy.
ME: And what did he say?
ALEX: That he wanted to go to therapy.
ME: And did you go to therapy?
ALEX: Um, Jake didn't want to go.
ME: Why would Jake go?
ALEX: Because we were already in a relationship at that point--the three of us.
ME: Jake, why didn't you want to go?
JACOB: I don't believe in therapy.
ME: Jesus take the wheel. Okay, so--because Jake didn't want to go, Alex, you and Mark didn't go?
ALEX: I didn't see how it would help.
ME: But you thought changing the locks on the your house would help?
ALEX: That was a decision because we were worried that Mark wouldn't leave if we asked him to.
ME: Why would he leave? It was his house.
JACOB: It's Alex's house.
ME: But Mark paid into the mortgage. It's just that his name wasn't on it.
JACOB: That's not true.
ME: Alex, do you want to tell Jacob if what I just said is true or not.
ALEX: Mark did pay into the mortgage.
JACOB: You didn't tell me that.
ALEX: I did tell you that.
JACOB: You've never told me that. That's the first I'm hearing about that.
ME: You know what else I bet you hadn't heard about? Alex, do you really make more money than Mark?
ALEX: I was for awhile, yes.
ME: Were you making more money than Mark when you started talking to Jacob?
ALEX: Not then, no. Mark had just gotten a raise.
ME: A big raise.
ALEX: Yes.
ME: And Mark used some of the money from the raise to pay off your car, didn't he?
ALEX: Yes.
ME: Jake, buddy, you bet on the wrong show pony.
JACOB: I don't see why it matters who made what.
ME: Because so far we found two things you didn't know about your new boyfriend.
JACOB: Fiance.
ME: Fiance? You're engaged?
JACOB: We got engaged this past weekend.
ME: In a panini? Great decision. Right up there with 'I should go to grad school.'
JACOB: Thank you.
ME: Just a great time to be making big life decisions. You two should move to L.A. while you're at it and when the adrenaline from the ongoing trauma wears off, we can do another interview and see where you're at.
JACOB: We do plan on moving. We're very excited to start a life together.
ME: How much of this relationship is love and how much of it is just physical infatuation?
JACOB: I think that's a really rude question.
ME: Ruder than changing the locks on a house someone else paid for?
JACOB: Alex paid for it too.
ME: But you, Jacob, didn't pay for any of it.
JACOB: It was Alex's decision to change the locks.
ALEX: That's not true.
JACOB: You're saying I wanted to change the locks?
ME: Ruh roh.
ALEX: You needed to change the locks because you were afraid of what Mark would do if he found out we were going to break up with him.
JACOB: That's not true.
ME: So Alex is lying?
JACOB: He's not lying, but that's not why we decided to change the locks.
ME: Then why did you?
JACOB: Because Alex was scared of Mark.
ME: Alex, are you scared of Mark?
ALEX: No.
ME: Well, this is awkward.
JACOB: It was a crazy time. We might have been--There was a lot going on.
ME: Perfect time to lock somebody out of their house.
JACOB: As someone who has been in an abusive relationship, I will say that I was worried about what Mark would do if we all found ourselves in a high pressure situation.
ME: You thought Mark would become violent?
JACOB: I don't know. I think anyone can become violent.
ME: So that was your reasoning?
JACOB: Alex might have seen how nervous I was an interpreted that as needing to take action.
ME: Is that what happened Alex?
ALEX: Not exactly like that no.
ME: Jacob, were you living with someone when you met Mark and Alex?
JACOB: I was, yes.
ME: How long had you been living with them?
JACOB: A year.
ME: And you were living with someone who was financially supporting you?
JACOB: He was helping me. Because he wanted to.
ME: When did that stop?
JACOB: When I moved out.
ME: His name was [Name of Man], right?
JACOB: Right.
ME: Right, I spoke with him.
(Silence.)
ME: How's my tone? Does it sound okay?
JACOB: I don't want to talk about past relationships.
ME: Well, unfortunately, this is my party, and I get to pick the snacks. So, I spoke with [Name of Jacob's Ex] and he told me that when you left his house the night you went to Mark and Alex's house, you told him that your mom was sick, and that you needed to go see her. You told him she lived in another state, a few hours away, which did not turn out to be true. He said you called him everyday for two weeks telling him that you were taking care of your mother. During those two weeks, he paid three separate bills that he had been paying--He made payments on your student loans, your cell phone, and a credit card bill. After the two weeks, you stopped calling and you stopped returning his phone calls. You blocked him on social media. To this day, he says he's never spoken with you about any of this. The only reason he didn't call the police and file a missing person's report was because a mutual friend sent him a photo of you and Alex together. Is all that accurate?
JACOB: He was emotionally very abusive to me and that's why I had to leave.
ME: In what way was he emotionally abusing you?
JACOB: Controlling me?
ME: How?
JACOB: He would pay for everything and if I wanted to do anything I had to ask his permission because he had control over all of the--like, my bills and everything.
ME: Does Alex pay your bills now?
JACOB: Alex pays some of them.
ME: Alex, do you pay some of them or all of them?
JACOB: He pays some of them.
ME: Let Alex answer.
ALEX: I pay most of them.
ME: So all of them. Great. So Alex really isn't that different from the last guy?
JACOB: He's very different.
ME: Did Alex tell you that you couldn't hang out with your friends [Name] and [Name] anymore?
JACOB: Alex and I both felt that they were not supportive of our relationship.
ME: Or they're two, hot, rich guys in a couple and Alex didn't want history repeating itself.
JACOB: False.
ME: Got it. Alex, is this love or physical infatuation?
ALEX: It's love.
ME: Jacob's only the second person you've been in a serious relationship with.
ALEX: Yes.
ME: And would you say he's the first guy you had a fulfilling sexual relationship with?
ALEX: Um.
ME: Why does talking about sex make you uncomfortable?
ALEX: It doesn't.
ME: So answer the question.
ALEX: I wouldn't say he's the first one that was, um, that--
ME: Fulfilling.
ALEX: I wouldn't say that, but, it was easier with him?
ME: Because you and Mark both like the same things, which can make sex more difficult.
ALEX: Yes.
ME: You know, the first time you're able to check every box with someone sexually, it's really easy to mistake that satisfaction for an emotional connection.
JACOB: We have an emotional connection.
ME: Jacob, I'm going to ask you something, and I want you to answer me honestly, okay? If Alex lost his job tomorrow, and somehow all his money just evaporated, would you still stick around?
JACOB: How would I stick around?
ME: Like, would you still be with him?
JACOB: Until he found another job?
ME: No, I mean, you're in love, so--Theoretically, he's homeless. Are you living on the street with him?
JACOB: I don't want to live on the street.
ME: Well, technically, nobody wants to--
JACOB: I can't do that. I'm not able to do that.
ME: But if it were the reality for the two of you--
JACOB: It wouldn't be the reality for me.
ME: But what about Alex?
JACOB: Alex has to take care of himself. I love him, but I know how to take care of myself.
ME: But you don't take care of yourself. He takes care of you.
JACOB: And that's why I love him.
ME: So if he couldn't take care of you, you wouldn't love him?
JACOB: I wouldn't know how to love someone if they couldn't take care of me. To me, that's an expression of love.
ME: Alex, how do you feel hearing that?
ALEX: Um. It hurts my feelings.
JACOB: I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but you know that I have a fear of all that. I have a fear of being homeless. I have a fear of not having any money.
ME: But that fear doesn't translate into love. If somebody is protecting you from something, you might love the protection, but that doesn't mean you love the person.
JACOB: In that case, I would say I love the protection.
ME: But what about Alex?
JACOB: He's the one giving me the protection.
ME: Okay.
(Silence.)
JACOB: And I do love him for that.
ALEX: I love you too.
ME: Alex, grow a #$%^-ing spine, please.
ALEX: I do have--
ME: That's pathetic.
ALEX: I heard what he said. I'm trying to deal with it.
ME: Do you want my honest appraisal of what went on here?
ALEX: Yes.
ME: Your boyfriend started making more money than you, and you felt out of control, because up to that point, you could control things based on what you were bringing to the table financially, so you went out and found someone--
ALEX: That's--
ME: Not finished. You found someone that would need you way more than Mark did, and you moved him in, and, as an added bonus, you got to have good sex, which you could have been having all along if you felt comfortable asking for what it is you want. I believe you want good sex, but I think, more than that, you really want to be in control, but you don't want it to look that way, because when people recognize you as someone in control, it requires you to actually step up and stand by your decisions. It's a lot easier to date somebody like Jake who can play guard dog and have everybody think he's running the show, when we all know, that's not what's going on here.
JACOB: We are fifty-fifty in this relationship.
ME: Jacob, I'm going to tell you something--When I was your age, I was dating a guy, and essentially living with him, and he was a great guy, nothing bad to say about him, but I found out later that he had some issues that I wasn't able to recognize. So one day, I come home--to the place I think of as home--and he tells me that it's not working out and I need to leave. Now, the night before, we watched a movie, we kissed, said 'I love you,' I woke up, went to work, came home, and it was all over and I had to leave. I put my stuff in a box, and I drove to my mom's house because I had nowhere else to go. And let me tell you something, that was the worst I have ever felt in my life. Not because I lost him, because, you know, break-ups happen and you get over it, but because my entire life was disrupted by him. I had given someone else the power to disrupt my entire life. And I remember, sleeping on my mom's couch, and thinking 'I will never give anybody this much power again. Whatever that means. If it means paying my own bills, putting things in only my name--whatever. I will never let somebody disrupt my life this way again.' You need to think about that, because tomorrow, some other guy could slip into Alex's DM's, and they could be cuter than you and younger than you, and if Alex wants you out of that house, there is nothing you can do about it.
JACOB: I would find someone else.
ME: Find yourself. That's what I'm saying to you.
JACOB: That's--Yes, I hear that. You act like that's easy.
ME: I know it's not easy. Listen to me, I know it's not. But if you're going down the wrong road, you don't keep going. You turn around.
ALEX: He doesn't need to go anywhere. I'm not going to kick him out.
ME: Is that what you would have said about Mark too?
ALEX: Mark is a good person and this was all for the best.
ME: Mark wanted me to ask you, Alex, if it didn't work with him when you two clearly loved each other very much but physically there were issues, why would it work with Jacob if physically there aren't issues, but you built this thing on a lie, you're still lying to each other, and there's no equity here. I'm paraphrasing his question, because he didn't know everything I know.
ALEX: I think that Jacob and I understand each other better than Mark and I did.
ME: All right. Jacob, will you give some thought to what I said, please?
JACOB: Yes. But I feel good about where I am, thank you.
ME: Okay. So when's the wedding?
JACOB: We want to get married once all this is over, so we might wait awhile.
ME: That sounds like a great idea.
Alex and Jacob sent an email asking to that certain parts of this interview be omitted. That request was not granted.
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