Theater and The Business Side: Pt. II

My last interview about theater pretty much…

...Exploded.

It got more views than all my other previous

interviews combined.

But I wasn’t entirely happy with how Them

came across, so I decided to go back

and interview them again along with some

questions some of you had.

Here’s the interview:

ME:  First thing’s first, can I make you
 a little less anonymous?

THEM:  Go right ahead.

ME:  You’re not a man.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  Correct. I am not a man.

ME:  Everyone thought you were a man.

THEM:  Well, I sounded like an asshole, 
so that makes sense.

ME:  So you weren’t surprised?

THEM:  I was more surprised by--people 
were very upset.

ME:  People basically hate you.

THEM:  I know, good thing you didn’t 
use my name.

ME:  And you told me to initially.

THEM:  I wanted you to.

ME:  Not anymore?

THEM:  (Laughs.)  No, not anymore.

ME:  I think the thing people had the most
 trouble with was you insinuating that--or
 rather just saying that--you don’t have any
 interest in the creative side of your 
organization.

THEM:  I didn’t say that.

ME:  That’s what they took from it.

THEM:  I said that I don’t have any input in
 the creative mission of the organization, 
and that’s--that’s not something--I wasn’t 
saying ‘And I’m THRILLED about that.’ 
 I was just speaking about how I feel.

ME:  So you would like creative input?

THEM:  I think anybody working at a theater 
would like to have a chance to, uh, steer the
 boat?  But, I don’t know if I’m entitled to that.

ME:  But you’re the top tier in terms of--of
--you know, you’re Executive Director.

THEM:  Which has a very clear--I have a
 very clear job.  Clear responsibilities.

ME:  The ‘keep the lights on’ mantra of yours--

THEM:  So much pushback.

ME:  Did you know people who read the interview?

THEM:  Oh yes.

ME:  Did anyone you work with think it was you?

THEM:  They don’t--I don’t speak that
 way at work.  I’m more--I watch what I say.

ME:  What were you hearing people say 
about the interview?

THEM:  Well like you brought up the ‘keep
 the lights on’--

ME:  Even I was surprised by the 
blowback from that.  I mean, I don’t begrudge
 you that. I think it’s logical to say ‘My job is
 to make sure we don’t close.’

THEM:  I can see how it came off as 
callous.  In retrospect, I can see that.

ME:  So have you changed your mind?

THEM:  No.

ME:  (Laughs.)  So we’re still where we were?

THEM:  I guess so.

ME:  Everyone where I live assumed 
you were from Rhode Island.

THEM:  I would never talk this freely if 
you were anywhere near me.

ME:  Yeah, I thought that would be pretty obvious.

THEM:  I guess not.

ME:  But since you’re NOT near me--

THEM:  But I’m...familiar--with your area.

ME:  Are you not fond of it?

THEM:  (Laughs.)  No, I just--Sorry.  This is
 so hard now that I know how things can 
be misconstrued.

ME:  Welcome to my entire life.

THEM:  Can we do a podcast where
 you warp my voice or something?

ME:  That’ll be part three.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  Great.

ME:  After we talked, did you feel any 
differently at work?

THEM:  Uh, I did...Well, I am in a lot of
 HR meetings.

ME:  (Laughs.)  That was the first thing 
you noticed?

THEM:  I was looking around, like, Wow, yeah,
 I spend way too much time in these meetings.

ME:  All HR?

THEM:  Not all HR, but--a lot of staffing stuff.  Donors.

ME:  What are your donors like?

THEM:  Um--this is where me being
 anonymous seems like--Not enough?

ME:  They can now narrow it down to women
 ED’s somewhere in America.

THEM:  Okay, right, well--our donors are more
 Conservative, which is not, um, I don’t think
 it’s unusual--I think most big donors at most
 theaters are.  And, uh, as a result, our board
--the board is a little more Conservative, 
and we’ve been--am I rambling now?

ME:  No, keep going, you’re about to spill some tea.

THEM:  As a result, I think we have a more 
Conservative audience base, but our--the
 artistic staff--that part of our organization--
would really like us to move more left, or even,
 you know, more to the center--and I sometimes 
feel that me--me and our AD--that we’re sort of--
the bridge between those two--those two opposing 
forces.  That’s what I didn’t get across last time. 
That there’s really a push and pull that’s happening
 all over the country in theaters like mine, and that,
 it’s not me just saying--I don’t want to do fun, artsy
 stuff or push boundaries. It’s about managing the
 expectations of everyone involved in the organization, 
and we are all over the map at mine--in terms of,
 uh, what people would like to see us do and explore.

ME:  Can I ask how you identify politically?

THEM:  I mean, you can ask.

ME:  How do you identify--

THEM:  I’m very liberal.  I would say I’m a
 progressive even.

ME:  So is this--what you’re doing then--
is it difficult for you at times?

THEM:  I, uh--I mean, the work we’re doing
 isn’t--it’s not promoting these Conservative
 ideals, I don’t think.  And I--I don’t even think 
the donors or board members that I described 
as--they’re not--they’re just looking for us to
 not alienate people.

ME:  But which people?  What people? People like them?

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  But eventually won’t you NEED to 
alienate people like them if you want a 
new audience?

THEM:  I hear that a lot.  A new audience. 
We’ve done things to try and attract that 
new audience.  The new audience is not--
uh--they’re not attracted to us.

ME:  I think they want to see you--I mean, 
I can’t speak for, like, the general audience 
where you are, but I know, for me, it’s not 
enough to see a theater just--Oh, here’s an
 innovative play--one of out five, and the 
rest are mainstream.  I want to see a real 
commitment to--

THEM:  Okay, and then, if you’re wrong--
what happens?  We lose everything.

ME:  You’re going to lose everything anyway.  
The audience you’ve been catering to if you’re 
programming is more mainstream is either 
dying out or abandoning you as soon as they
 don’t have extra money for theater tickets
 anymore.  You cannot rely on them.

THEM:  We’re--I know, for us--we’re looking
 for a new business model.

ME:  But see, you keep bringing these business
 terms into it, and to me, as someone in the 
demographic you’re trying to attract--THAT’S
 alienating.

THEM:  You’re not in my targeted demographic.

ME:  I’m not?

THEM:  No.

ME:  I’m in the age--

THEM:  But, see, you’re an artist, and, 
okay--can we do some real honesty now?

ME:  Sure.  Yes. I love honesty.

THEM:  Okay. So, the reality is, a theater the
 size of mine--we’re never going to please the
 artists in our community.

ME:  Why not?

THEM:  Well--see, if they’re not working with us?
  If they’re not getting a paycheck from us? Then, 
they don’t like us.  Plain and simple.

ME:  Oh, I was wondering when the large-sized 
equity theater ‘Haters Gonna Hate’ approach 
was going to kick in.

THEM:  It’s just how things are.  We could
 denuclearize the world and if we’re not putting 
you onstage, you’re going to be mad at us.  
That’s just--

ME:  That is--Okay, I’ll go with you, in a sense.  It’s
 true that, like, if your theater hasn’t been hiring me,
 or producing my plays, or benefitting me in some 
way, and you close, yeah, I’m probably not going 
door-to-door trying to help keep your doors open. 
 I am selfish in that way. Sure. I’ll meet you there.

THEM:  Okay.

ME:  But there’s also this, uh, approach--
again--that theaters your size have the artistic
 community where they operate that--that you
 don’t have to engage with the smaller groups
 where you are.  You just have to go after the 
‘theater lovers who don’t do theater’ community
 and that group is shrinking--it’s shrinking--because 
everybody wants to be up onstage now. It’s a--you
 talk about the culture.  It’s a performer culture now. 
 Nobody wants to just sit there show after show 
knowing they’re never going to have the chance to--

THEM:  But no theater can make a 
commitment to putting a million people onstage every--

ME:  Right, but you’ve put some people on 
your stage that aren’t very good.

THEM:  You want to go in that direction?

ME:  I would go in that direction.

THEM:  Do you always put people on your 
stage that are good?

ME:  Not always, no.  I’ll take that hit.

THEM:  So why do you do it?

ME:  I do it because I think people deserve the 
chance to get better, and they can’t get better 
unless they’re acting in shows, and theaters
 like yours won’t give them that opportunity
 because their dad didn’t help refurbish your
 dressing rooms.

THEM:  Whoa, okay.  Gloves off.

ME:  Gloves off.

THEM:  We don’t put people in shows because
 of donations.

ME:  You certainly aren’t putting them onstage
 because of how good they are--based on 
what I saw.

THEM:  So you’re the judge of what’s good and--

ME:  Have you ever stood out in your lobby--

THEM:  You saw what?  Three shows?

ME:  How many shows do I have to see 
before I see somebody who can act?

THEM:  Would you say you’re a good actor?

ME:  No, I would say I’m a great actor.

THEM:  Would you be mad if we didn’t
 hire you?

ME:  Yes, because why wouldn’t you want
 to hire a great actor?

THEM:  If you were one.

ME:  Sure, if I was one.

THEM:  Again, that’s the creative--

ME:  And you’re blaming the creative side again.

THEM:  It’s just a fact.  I do not cast people 
and when it comes to reaching out to the 
creative community--

ME:  So you don’t think that’s good business?  
To make sure your theater’s relationship to
 the surrounding theaters is--

THEM:  We get along very well with--

ME:  Because I--

THEM:  --Wait a minute--

ME:  I asked around.

THEM:  Oh, did you?

ME:  I did.  Have you ever seen a show that 
wasn’t being produced at your theater?

THEM:  I see theater all the time.

ME:  In New York.  Sometimes Boston.  I
 follow you on Facebook, I know these things.

THEM:  You things.  Yes, you do. You 
know everything.

ME:  What was the last show you saw in 
your area not at your theater?

THEM:  I do theater all day, Kevin, I don’t 
want to leave work and go do more work.

ME:  Imagine if everybody else who does
 theater in your area felt that way though.

THEM:  They’re welcome to feel that way.  
We’re not asking them to come support us.

ME:  You don’t want that support?

THEM:  I don’t expect them to--

ME:  Can we just go back?  So you don’t
 want to support theaters in your area because
 you do theater all day long but getting on a 
bus or a plane or whatever and seeing theater 
NOT in your area is not work?

THEM:  I’m not going to litigate like in your
 other interviews--I know you keep track of
 this stuff.

ME:  What stuff?

THEM:  Who sees what.  It’s my business 
what I see.

ME:  It’s bad business that I saw three shows 
at your theater when I was visiting you and you 
came to visit me and saw nothing at mine.  
You got a train, went to New York, and saw 
stuff there instead. That’s f***ing rude is what it is.

THEM:  How is it rude?

ME:  If you open a burger joint, and I come to
 visit you, and you see me across the street 
at Burger King--that’s not rude?

THEM:  That might be how you perceive it.  
That’s not how I see it.

ME:  This isn’t even what we--

THEM:  I know, we’re talking about what I do 
as it relates to--

ME:  Because people objected to you making it 
sound like you sit in some tower, counting your 
money like Ebeneezer f***ing Scrooge and every 
so often, check in with the plebes doing theater
 to see how they’re feeling.

THEM:  And that’s not accurate.

ME:  Here’s a question for you--did your theater
 even take money from someone who donated 
to the President?

--There’s a pause.--

THEM:  I’m not sure what you--

ME:  Do you have supporters of the President
 on your board or on your donor list?  Or just 
your big donor list?

THEM:  I wouldn’t know that.  We don’t ask our
 board or our donors who they support politically.

ME:  Is it possible some of them are very vocal 
about who it is they support--so much so that it
 would be hard for you not to know?

THEM:  I don’t really like where this is going now.  
This feels more like an attack.

ME:  We can stop if you want to stop.

THEM:  Are you saying people who support the 
President aren’t allowed to be involved in theater?

ME:  I’m saying if someone who supports the
 President gives you a six-figure check, how willing are you going to be to present work at your theater critical of either the President or what his political platform is?

THEM:  We don’t let those two things overlap.

ME:  So you would feel comfortable, right 
now, doing a play that was critical of the
 President?

THEM:  We have done plays critical of 
the President?

ME:  Like, outwardly critical or just sort of 
vague-critical?  Like, you did The Seagull 
but Nina is America and Arkadina is the
 President or--?

THEM:  We’ve been doing work that lines
 up with our mission.

ME:  But you said last time you didn’t even
 know what your mission was.

THEM:  I said that I felt it was unclear.

ME:  So how can you follow it?

THEM:  We feel we are.

ME:  What is this ‘we?’  You’re talking like
 Hal from 2001.  This is the talking points thing again.

THEM:  I’m used to speaking on behalf of 
my organization.  You do the same thing.

ME:  But it’s just you and me talking now.

THEM:  I guess you have an easier time
 turning it off than I do.

ME:  I just want to have a frank conversation.

THEM:  It feels like you want to make a point.

ME:  I do.  Would you do a show right now
 that took a pro-choice stance?

THEM:  It would depend on the show.

ME:  What does that mean?

THEM:  It means it would depend on 
whether or not it was a good show.

ME:  But would a show with that kind of
 message fit with your mission?

THEM:  Our mission is to do good shows.

ME:  That can’t possibly be your mission.

THEM:  It’s--it should be--the mission of 
every theater.

ME:  But the thing is--okay I don’t want to do a 
whole sermon--

THEM:  You don’t?  Really?

ME:  But you have very little control over whether a 
show turns out good or not--there’s a lot of magic in 
there that happens even if everything else is done 
correctly--that’s why you’re also supposed to have 
a belief system in place--

THEM:  We’re not a church, Kevin.

ME:  You should be closer to a church than a
 corporation.

THEM:  Says the atheist.

ME:  You’d get me in a church before you’d get
 me in a boardroom.

THEM:  And that’s why I’m running the theater
 I’m running and you’re running the theater 
you’re running.

ME:  And that’s why you might not have a 
theater in five years.

THEM:  And do you think you will?

ME:  Probably not, but it’ll only be because at
 that point we’ll all be underwater and robots 
will be running the world.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  Honestly that sounds more
 fun than how this conversation is going.

ME:  I don’t drink, but I need a drink.

THEM:  I’ll drink for both of us.  Can we stop here
 before you end up calling me a bitch?

ME:  I wouldn’t call you a bitch.

THEM:  And you only mansplained theater to me 
a few times, so you’re better than most of the guys
 I work with.

ME:  Did I really?  Oh god.

THEM:  You should have let them keep thinking I 
was a guy, then nobody would care.

ME:  I’ve made so many mistakes.

THEM:  Haven’t we all?

Them is an Executive Director and there
 probably won’t be a Part Three.