If you're going to do an interview with someone about impostor syndrome as it relates to the arts, I recommend not doing it at 2am in the event that the two of you get punch-drunk and you spend the majority of the conversation laughing at each other, but it's still more pleasant than most of what you'll read on the Internet today, so why not?
Them is a colleague who does theater--and that's pretty much all you need to know.
Here's the interview:
ME: I should mention this is the fifth time I've tried to start this conversation because you keep laughing.
THEM: I'm so tired.
ME: Aren't you in tech?
THEM: I am.
ME: And you stayed up to do this?
THEM: You said we had to get it done by tonight!
ME: I did say that. I'm sorry.
THEM: (Laughs.) You're such an asshole.
ME: (Laughs.) I really am.
THEM: What do you want to know?
ME: You asked me to talk--to do one of these interviews--about impostor syndrome.
THEM: Yes.
ME: So.
THEM: So.
(We both start laughing and laugh for about two solid minutes.)
THEM: Nobody is going to read this.
ME: So we can do it. We can do it. We just have to focus.
THEM: I'm so tired. Can we talk about how tired I am?
ME: Sure.
THEM: Tech is--oh god.
ME: It's one of those brutal ones, huh?
THEM: I can no longer tell the difference between blue and red.
ME: The colors?
THEM: No, the f#*$-ing vegetables, you idiot.
ME: (Laughs.) It was a weird thing to--
THEM: Yes, the colors. I keep looking at this one light cue where it's blue and then where it's supposed to be red but it still looks blue.
ME: This is boring. We have to change the subject.
THEM: OKAY FINE.
ME: When do you feel like an impostor?
THEM: All the time.
ME: Right now?
THEM: ALL THE TIME.
ME: (Laughs.) Oh my god.
THEM: What about you?
ME: I feel like an impostor right now.
THEM: Only right now?
ME: No, it's all the time too.
THEM: When do you feel it the most?
ME: First day of anything.
THEM: So you think--Oh, I'm not an actor.
ME: It's not that as much as it's--
THEM: I'm not a good actor?
ME: Can you let me f#$-ing finish what I was--
THEM: (Laughs.) Sorry.
ME: (Laughs.) I was going to--oh god. I was going to say, that my biggest--I don't know if this is impostor syndrome or not, but--
THEM: I don't f#$&-ing know what it is.
ME: (Laughs.) Just shut up. I was going to say I don't know if it's this, but--that I keep thinking I have nothing unique to contribute.
THEM: Really?
ME: Yeah. Like what do I have to say that's new?
THEM: What does anyone have to say that's new?
ME: Isn't it amazing that we still have impostor syndrome even though everybody agrees that we all feel that way sometimes? That it's no comfort to know that?
THEM: It's a little bit of a comfort.
ME: It's no comfort to me.
THEM: (Laughs.) Well, screw you then.
ME: (Laughs.) It's just about needing to constantly feel like you're winning.
THEM: And not feeling that way.
ME: Barely ever feeling that way.
THEM: You barely ever feel that way?
ME: Barely ever.
THEM: Barely ever.
ME: Yes.
THEM: Okay.
(More laughing.)
ME: I mean, I have glimpses of feeling like 'Oh, I'm doing good' and then, like, a day goes by and it's all over. It's like the news cycle. My self-esteem and the news cycle are on the same clock.
THEM: Are people surprised when you tell them you feel this way?
ME: Are you surprised?
THEM: That you feel like s***? Not really. I read your emo monologues so--
ME: They're not all emo.
THEM: Some of them are very emo.
ME: It's really hard when you're directing.
THEM: You don't like directing.
ME: I hate it.
THEM: You don't want that pressure.
ME: Do you like it?
THEM: I do, but I feel like everybody knows I'm crying in my car after every rehearsal.
ME: Well, yeah, they see you in the parking lot.
THEM: I really do that, by the way.
ME: You cry in the car?
THEM: You don't?
ME: No, I turn into a zombie. I sit in the theater after rehearsal and just stare into space.
THEM: I should try that.
ME: (Laughs.) Do you think it goes away when you're older and you've got enough experience under your belt?
THEM: No, because when you get older--Okay, so we're not children.
ME: I'm twenty-four.
THEM: F#$& you, you're a thousand years old.
ME: True.
THEM: You get presented with new problems you don't know how to solve, so experience is--It's useful in some ways, but it's not the be-all end-all.
ME: Is that why some directors like directing the same shows over and over again?
THEM: Probably. Oh, I know how to solve this.
ME: Would feeling like an impostor ever make you quit?
THEM: I quit all the time, but then I come back.
ME: Why?
THEM: Because I'm not good at anything else.
ME: But you think you're not good at this either.
THEM: I think I might not be good at this, but I know I'm terrible at everything else.
ME: (Laughs.) That's inspirational.
THEM: There are times where you feel like you're nailing it, and I think those times are so--They get you through a lot more than you'd think.
ME: Because you remember.
THEM: Are you your worst critic?
ME: By a long shot, yes. Although some critics have, uh, given me a run for my money.
THEM: (Laughs.) I'm learning to not be so hard on myself.
ME: And, like, what's the definition of a good director--actor--whatever--anyway?
THEM: Some people are just bad, Kevin.
ME: Who? Who's bad?
THEM: You. There's you.
ME: (Laughs.) Anyone else?
THEM: (Pause.) No, just you.
ME: (Laughs.) Okay, okay. No more laughing.
(I laugh for another solid minute.)
ME: Have you ever experienced a success you thought you didn't deserve?
THEM: Yes. My first paid acting gig. I got all these great reviews and I thought I was horrendous.
ME: Why did you think that?
THEM: Because the director kept making me feel that way.
ME: Do you think that was their intention?
THEM: Uh...I think they wanted to play the role and I was not doing a good enough impersonation of them playing the role.
ME: We've talked about that in these interviews, I think.
THEM: It's demoralizing. A bad director can really break you in a way that nobody else can.
ME: And so when the good reviews came out--
THEM: He, uh--He actually took me aside and told me they were wrong.
ME: He did not.
THEM: He did. He said I was doing it wrong and so they were responding to the wrong things and even though it was positive I was ruining all these reviews because my co-stars in the cast didn't get good reviews and the show got a lukewarm review--
ME: And that was all your fault.
THEM: Yes.
ME: Wow.
THEM: And I believed him.
ME: That's nuts.
THEM: But, you know, uh--We need someone to tell us we're good that isn't us. And we only need--We can have a million people telling us we're good, but when you believe you're bad, it only takes one person to say it, and you're like, Oh yeah, that's true. I agree with that.
ME: But then--so are you happy when he says it? No, right?
THEM: I wasn't happy, but it was--I felt like--Okay, so I should just give it up.
ME: But you didn't.
THEM: This other project came along and that director was a friend who really needed me and I had a nice time and then I just kept going from there, and it's never....It's never been as bad as that guy who was terrible to me, but there are highs and lows--
ME: Lows where you feel like a fraud?
THEM: And highs where you feel like a fraud. And it's not--we say feel, but--again, there are people--especially now--who just come out and say it to you.
ME: That you're not good.
THEM: They case it as--You're not good in this particular project. But if you feel like you're doing in this project what you've always done--
ME: It's like--Why do you hate me now?
THEM: Right. Not that you're playing the same character every time, but sometimes they'll bring up something and you'll go, Have I been doing that? And that's bad? And why didn't anybody tell me I was doing that? And that I'm bad?
ME: It's a spiral.
THEM: It's a spiral--yeah.
ME: Can we talk more about--I want to talk more about guys like that director.
THEM: The Big Bad Wolf.
ME: Is that what you called him?
THEM: Yup.
ME: I might use that.
THEM: Feel free.
ME: Do you think that what you've achieved is the result of luck or chance?
THEM: Yes--sometimes. But I know I work hard. I know that if I didn't work hard there are things I wouldn't have in my life.
ME: I think I work as hard as I do to--to make it look like I'm successful even when I don't feel successful. So people can look at me and say, Oh he works so hard.
THEM: And that's success.
ME: Yup.
THEM: Do you think you have something to prove?
ME: Constantly.
THEM: What is that thing you need to prove?
ME: I--that I'm--That I have value.
THEM: So you don't believe you do.
ME: No, I believe I do, I just other people to see that I do.
THEM: I see that.
ME: I need everybody to see it.
THEM: Everybody, everybody?
ME: Friends, enemies, people who think I suck--
THEM: Are you working on that?
ME: I am working on that, yes.
THEM: It's tough.
ME: It's really tough.
THEM: You know what else is tough? Keeping my eyes open right now.
ME: I'll call you next week and we can talk about the Big Bad Wolf.
THEM: If you want someone to talk to about him, I can give you a really good person to talk to.
ME: Oooooh, my first 'To Be Continued.'
THEM: Just prepare yourself. It's, uh, it's a lot.
ME: Well, I have a week to prepare.
THEM: Trust me, Kevin, it's a lot.
Them fell asleep shortly after this interview.
Them is a colleague who does theater--and that's pretty much all you need to know.
Here's the interview:
ME: I should mention this is the fifth time I've tried to start this conversation because you keep laughing.
THEM: I'm so tired.
ME: Aren't you in tech?
THEM: I am.
ME: And you stayed up to do this?
THEM: You said we had to get it done by tonight!
ME: I did say that. I'm sorry.
THEM: (Laughs.) You're such an asshole.
ME: (Laughs.) I really am.
THEM: What do you want to know?
ME: You asked me to talk--to do one of these interviews--about impostor syndrome.
THEM: Yes.
ME: So.
THEM: So.
(We both start laughing and laugh for about two solid minutes.)
THEM: Nobody is going to read this.
ME: So we can do it. We can do it. We just have to focus.
THEM: I'm so tired. Can we talk about how tired I am?
ME: Sure.
THEM: Tech is--oh god.
ME: It's one of those brutal ones, huh?
THEM: I can no longer tell the difference between blue and red.
ME: The colors?
THEM: No, the f#*$-ing vegetables, you idiot.
ME: (Laughs.) It was a weird thing to--
THEM: Yes, the colors. I keep looking at this one light cue where it's blue and then where it's supposed to be red but it still looks blue.
ME: This is boring. We have to change the subject.
THEM: OKAY FINE.
ME: When do you feel like an impostor?
THEM: All the time.
ME: Right now?
THEM: ALL THE TIME.
ME: (Laughs.) Oh my god.
THEM: What about you?
ME: I feel like an impostor right now.
THEM: Only right now?
ME: No, it's all the time too.
THEM: When do you feel it the most?
ME: First day of anything.
THEM: So you think--Oh, I'm not an actor.
ME: It's not that as much as it's--
THEM: I'm not a good actor?
ME: Can you let me f#$-ing finish what I was--
THEM: (Laughs.) Sorry.
ME: (Laughs.) I was going to--oh god. I was going to say, that my biggest--I don't know if this is impostor syndrome or not, but--
THEM: I don't f#$&-ing know what it is.
ME: (Laughs.) Just shut up. I was going to say I don't know if it's this, but--that I keep thinking I have nothing unique to contribute.
THEM: Really?
ME: Yeah. Like what do I have to say that's new?
THEM: What does anyone have to say that's new?
ME: Isn't it amazing that we still have impostor syndrome even though everybody agrees that we all feel that way sometimes? That it's no comfort to know that?
THEM: It's a little bit of a comfort.
ME: It's no comfort to me.
THEM: (Laughs.) Well, screw you then.
ME: (Laughs.) It's just about needing to constantly feel like you're winning.
THEM: And not feeling that way.
ME: Barely ever feeling that way.
THEM: You barely ever feel that way?
ME: Barely ever.
THEM: Barely ever.
ME: Yes.
THEM: Okay.
(More laughing.)
ME: I mean, I have glimpses of feeling like 'Oh, I'm doing good' and then, like, a day goes by and it's all over. It's like the news cycle. My self-esteem and the news cycle are on the same clock.
THEM: Are people surprised when you tell them you feel this way?
ME: Are you surprised?
THEM: That you feel like s***? Not really. I read your emo monologues so--
ME: They're not all emo.
THEM: Some of them are very emo.
ME: It's really hard when you're directing.
THEM: You don't like directing.
ME: I hate it.
THEM: You don't want that pressure.
ME: Do you like it?
THEM: I do, but I feel like everybody knows I'm crying in my car after every rehearsal.
ME: Well, yeah, they see you in the parking lot.
THEM: I really do that, by the way.
ME: You cry in the car?
THEM: You don't?
ME: No, I turn into a zombie. I sit in the theater after rehearsal and just stare into space.
THEM: I should try that.
ME: (Laughs.) Do you think it goes away when you're older and you've got enough experience under your belt?
THEM: No, because when you get older--Okay, so we're not children.
ME: I'm twenty-four.
THEM: F#$& you, you're a thousand years old.
ME: True.
THEM: You get presented with new problems you don't know how to solve, so experience is--It's useful in some ways, but it's not the be-all end-all.
ME: Is that why some directors like directing the same shows over and over again?
THEM: Probably. Oh, I know how to solve this.
ME: Would feeling like an impostor ever make you quit?
THEM: I quit all the time, but then I come back.
ME: Why?
THEM: Because I'm not good at anything else.
ME: But you think you're not good at this either.
THEM: I think I might not be good at this, but I know I'm terrible at everything else.
ME: (Laughs.) That's inspirational.
THEM: There are times where you feel like you're nailing it, and I think those times are so--They get you through a lot more than you'd think.
ME: Because you remember.
THEM: Are you your worst critic?
ME: By a long shot, yes. Although some critics have, uh, given me a run for my money.
THEM: (Laughs.) I'm learning to not be so hard on myself.
ME: And, like, what's the definition of a good director--actor--whatever--anyway?
THEM: Some people are just bad, Kevin.
ME: Who? Who's bad?
THEM: You. There's you.
ME: (Laughs.) Anyone else?
THEM: (Pause.) No, just you.
ME: (Laughs.) Okay, okay. No more laughing.
(I laugh for another solid minute.)
ME: Have you ever experienced a success you thought you didn't deserve?
THEM: Yes. My first paid acting gig. I got all these great reviews and I thought I was horrendous.
ME: Why did you think that?
THEM: Because the director kept making me feel that way.
ME: Do you think that was their intention?
THEM: Uh...I think they wanted to play the role and I was not doing a good enough impersonation of them playing the role.
ME: We've talked about that in these interviews, I think.
THEM: It's demoralizing. A bad director can really break you in a way that nobody else can.
ME: And so when the good reviews came out--
THEM: He, uh--He actually took me aside and told me they were wrong.
ME: He did not.
THEM: He did. He said I was doing it wrong and so they were responding to the wrong things and even though it was positive I was ruining all these reviews because my co-stars in the cast didn't get good reviews and the show got a lukewarm review--
ME: And that was all your fault.
THEM: Yes.
ME: Wow.
THEM: And I believed him.
ME: That's nuts.
THEM: But, you know, uh--We need someone to tell us we're good that isn't us. And we only need--We can have a million people telling us we're good, but when you believe you're bad, it only takes one person to say it, and you're like, Oh yeah, that's true. I agree with that.
ME: But then--so are you happy when he says it? No, right?
THEM: I wasn't happy, but it was--I felt like--Okay, so I should just give it up.
ME: But you didn't.
THEM: This other project came along and that director was a friend who really needed me and I had a nice time and then I just kept going from there, and it's never....It's never been as bad as that guy who was terrible to me, but there are highs and lows--
ME: Lows where you feel like a fraud?
THEM: And highs where you feel like a fraud. And it's not--we say feel, but--again, there are people--especially now--who just come out and say it to you.
ME: That you're not good.
THEM: They case it as--You're not good in this particular project. But if you feel like you're doing in this project what you've always done--
ME: It's like--Why do you hate me now?
THEM: Right. Not that you're playing the same character every time, but sometimes they'll bring up something and you'll go, Have I been doing that? And that's bad? And why didn't anybody tell me I was doing that? And that I'm bad?
ME: It's a spiral.
THEM: It's a spiral--yeah.
ME: Can we talk more about--I want to talk more about guys like that director.
THEM: The Big Bad Wolf.
ME: Is that what you called him?
THEM: Yup.
ME: I might use that.
THEM: Feel free.
ME: Do you think that what you've achieved is the result of luck or chance?
THEM: Yes--sometimes. But I know I work hard. I know that if I didn't work hard there are things I wouldn't have in my life.
ME: I think I work as hard as I do to--to make it look like I'm successful even when I don't feel successful. So people can look at me and say, Oh he works so hard.
THEM: And that's success.
ME: Yup.
THEM: Do you think you have something to prove?
ME: Constantly.
THEM: What is that thing you need to prove?
ME: I--that I'm--That I have value.
THEM: So you don't believe you do.
ME: No, I believe I do, I just other people to see that I do.
THEM: I see that.
ME: I need everybody to see it.
THEM: Everybody, everybody?
ME: Friends, enemies, people who think I suck--
THEM: Are you working on that?
ME: I am working on that, yes.
THEM: It's tough.
ME: It's really tough.
THEM: You know what else is tough? Keeping my eyes open right now.
ME: I'll call you next week and we can talk about the Big Bad Wolf.
THEM: If you want someone to talk to about him, I can give you a really good person to talk to.
ME: Oooooh, my first 'To Be Continued.'
THEM: Just prepare yourself. It's, uh, it's a lot.
ME: Well, I have a week to prepare.
THEM: Trust me, Kevin, it's a lot.
Them fell asleep shortly after this interview.
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