Something that came up during the Wolf interviews are the consequences of treating a career in the theater like a game where there are winners, losers, and baskets you need to put all your eggs in.
This week's Them is someone who identifies as a person who is still actively trying to play the game even though it might be the thing driving them away from doing theater altogether.
Here's the interview:
ME: Before we start, let's just make it clear that you are not Canadian.
THEM: (Laughs.) I am not.
ME: But you said the part about what should happen to the supporters of the Wolf really struck you.
-- Need a refresher? Go to http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2019/07/an-update-on-theater-and-big-bad-wolf.html --
THEM: It did, because, um--I found it to be a little unfair.
ME: Unfair to who?
THEM: To the people who--who are trying to sort of--Okay, I guess I should say that what I found interesting about that whole series of interviews was that--there was this--I guess naivete?--That somehow there's a way around dealing with people like that. Like the Wolf. And that it's not all just part of the game, and so, um, so people who were siding with him, it's like, maybe they were just trying to do the best they could.
ME: To play the game?
THEM: Yes.
ME: So you think you just have to live with people like the Wolf?
THEM: I think you have to know how to, um, you know, maneuver around them. I'm not saying you should be forced to put up with, uh, how they are, but the fact is, we're talking about a lot of people in power, and, you know, if people look at that and decide they're best option is to, you know, keep your enemies closer, then I don't think we should judge them for that, you know? It's like--they're doing what they have to do.
ME: But it's not for survival, it's for advancement.
THEM: Maybe to them survival is advancement. These are people who might need to pay their bills and maybe the person standing in the way of them doing that is, uh, an abuser, right?
ME: But how do you interact with an abuser without tolerating the abuse or looking the other way when somebody else is being abused?
THEM: I think you get yourself to a higher position than they are and then you do something.
ME: Don't a lot of abusers--isn't that exactly what they're on the lookout for? To make sure nobody becomes more powerful than them?
THEM: I just think when you're talking about enablers and punishing enablers--are we talking about people who, like, gleefully enabled or people who felt like they had no other choice?
ME: You were telling me that you sort of--unapologetically play the game.
THEM: Um, yeah, I would say I do.
ME: And can we just talk about--you're saying the game as in--being an actor--a working actor--getting roles--getting gigs--you think there's a game element to all that?
THEM: Yes.
ME: And have you always felt that?
THEM: I didn't feel it so much when I was in school. I was enrolled in a university that had a very small theater department so there was, uh, plenty of wealth to go around. It wasn't until I moved to where I am now that I felt like, Oh, this is the rat race people are talking about. This is where it is. This is something you have to be smart about.
ME: Do you feel comfortable saying where you live now?
THEM: Uh. I'd rather not.
ME: That's okay.
THEM: But I'm sure it's not that much different from anywhere else. There are cliques. There are people who--every place has their favorites.
ME: There are warring factions?
THEM: (Laughs.) Oh yes.
ME: And you decided the best thing for you to do was to join one of them?
THEM: I don't know that I had a choice in the matter.
ME: Couldn't you just sort of float between the factions?
THEM: I guess I could have tried it. Have you ever done that?
ME: Yeah, I--Well for me, I never really wanted to be associated with only one theater. Or even two theaters. I wanted to just be this individual who traveled between different groups so I wouldn't get bored.
THEM: How did that work out?
ME: Uh, it went okay, and then I started my own theater, so I kind of had to go all-in on that.
THEM: Here, uh, where I'm living, if you're this sort of--individual who's trying to play all sides--
ME: It's not necessarily playing--
THEM: Playing all sides might not be--but that's how some people look at it, uh, and if it's perceived that that's what you're trying to do, you're going to have a hard time of it.
ME: What do you mean?
THEM: There are people in each group--who work at each group--who are owed roles, right? And they're owed those roles, because they've dedicated time, energy, you know, to those groups, and so if you're just coming in and out when you feel like it, you're never going to be able to rise up to a place where you can be in a position to, you know, really get a role you want.
ME: But even those people--the ones who are loyal or dedicated--that doesn't always pan out for them either?
THEM: Right, but I think you just have to hope it does, because what's the alternative? I don't want to start my own company. I don't like the idea of producing or creating my own content or--So I rely on other people to give me roles, give me projects, that kind of thing, so I have to do what I think is smart in order to, uh, get those roles and those projects.
ME: Like the people in the Wolf interviews who we were talking about--who sort of put all their eggs in his basket.
THEM: I've done that. Not with someone who, uh, was abusive or malicious to that extent, but I've definitely hitched my star to a few people over the years. And not all of them were the nicest of people.
ME: And did it work out?
THEM: In one case, it is currently working out, yeah. I feel very fulfilled.
ME: And would you say you're completely devoted to this person?
THEM: I--I have a good working relationship with them.
ME: So they've done a lot for you?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Would they have done as much if you weren't as dedicated?
THEM: You mean if I wasn't as loyal? I would hope not.
ME: Not loyal, necessarily, but--if you weren't all in with them, so to speak.
THEM: I think that is loyalty though. It's--look, if you're rehearsing with me, and I know that you just worked with another theater, and maybe I want to crack a joke about that theater, am I going to look over at you and wonder if that's going to make you uncomfortable? I don't want to have to worry about stuff like that, you know? People want to be able to speak freely.
ME: But it sounds like--you're making it sound like free speech--it's really about wanting to trash another theater in a rehearsal and feeling like that's okay because everyone there is on your team.
THEM: And see, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
ME: You don't?
THEM: No.
ME: So let's say what happened to the guy in Canada happened to this guy you're aligning yourself with now--where would you be?
THEM: I think...I think it would be very difficult for me.
ME: Have you done things that were out-of-line against other people or other theaters as a way of endearing yourself to this person?
THEM: I've talked some trash, yeah. Everybody does that.
ME: And so you'd really be in tough shape.
THEM: That's why I reached out to you. I--I think it's unfair to punish--Listen, the people at the top, who take advantage and act like they can get away with it? Drag them all you want. Have fun. But the person--and this has come up before in your interviews--this is a system. And we're all trying to do our best within the system. So to say--Well, now the system is changing and let's punish ALL the people who did well in the previous system just by virtue of the fact that they did well in it--that doesn't seem fair to me.
ME: But in this case, you're doing well because you're--I know you said your--that the person you have that relationship with isn't an abuser, but--you're engaging in behavior that might be hurting other people to--again, to advance yourself. I don't see why it would be unfair to--if everything turned around--to say, 'Well, now you have to pay for it.'
THEM: Because I was acting in the reality that I was given, Kevin. I am not in charge of the rules. And I don't see what's wrong with saying 'I played by the rules and I did well because I knew how to do that.' I won't mind playing by new rules once they get here, but that--what came up in that interview you said was basically--that I shouldn't even be given a chance.
ME: I can't speak for the person I interviewed, but for me, it's more about--all these people who didn't want to play by those rules--don't you think they should get first crack at it?
THEM: Because they've been acting all high and mighty sitting off to the side--
ME: Because they've been kept down--
THEM: Not all of them.
ME: Isn't it--don't you think the argument you're trying to use about--I was just going with the flow--that's the same argument abusers use. They say, 'Oh, you used to be able to grab your secretary's ass and it was fine. I didn't know that was the wrong thing to do.'
THEM: This isn't as cut and dry as that.
ME: We need some concrete examples here, I think.
THEM: Like what?
ME: Let's just--I just want to illustrate, if possible, how ridiculous things can get when you're treating participating in the arts like a game of chess.
THEM: Okay.
ME: Because the person I interviewed--and I know this is a different place than where you're from, but--I'm curious--have you ever avoided working somewhere because it was someplace the person you're--your guy--it's somewhere he doesn't approve of?
THEM: Uh. I'd like to think if I really wanted to work somewhere--
ME: So have you ever really wanted to work somewhere, but didn't, because you knew it wouldn't go over well with someone you wanted to impress?
THEM: Yes.
ME: How did you feel about that?
THEM: I felt--I didn't feel anything about it.
ME: Did it bother you that you had to make that choice?
THEM: I--like I said, I didn't really think about it.
ME: Why would it have bothered the person or people you wanted to impress if you worked there?
THEM: Because that place is a place that's considered to, uh, put out stuff of lower quality.
ME: Maybe you could have raised the quality?
THEM: Maybe.
ME: And who determines quality?
THEM: It's a matter of taste, I guess.
ME: Because we've also talked about gatekeepers in these interviews.
THEM: Yeah, that could be a gatekeeper thing.
ME: And are you only judged for working at these places or if you see things there as well?
THEM: I don't think you're judged as harshly just for seeing things, but, um, nobody's telling you that you should go see things at some of these places either, and there's, uh, expected attendance at the places or--at the things--where the people you want to impress are.
ME: I can't wait until I post this interview and people in Rhode Island act surprised and horrified to hear all this.
THEM: Does it happen there too?
ME: Oh yes.
THEM: Have you ever participated in it?
ME: Uh, yes.
THEM: Do you still?
ME: I don't care as much. It's--it's honestly exhausting.
THEM: It is.
ME: To try and juggle where you should be, who you should work with--
THEM: It's what makes me want to walk away.
ME: You've thought about quitting?
THEM: All the time.
ME: What if you just said 'To hell with it, I'm not doing this anymore' and just--followed your own path? Worked with who you want, did projects with--
THEM: Because I do take this seriously--not just as a craft, but as a profession--and so, I don't know why I should feel like this should be any different in terms of--what you have to do as part of a profession to get ahead.
ME: Not every profession is like that.
THEM: Professions where there's this much competition?
ME: But is the competition good for the art?
THEM: That's--I think that's a legitimate question, but, you know, the reality of it--
ME: Is saying 'the reality of it' a way of brushing these kinds of questions aside?
THEM: I'm not trying to--
ME: No, I know you're not trying to, but is it a way of--
THEM: Look, these things have to co-exist. How we are as artists versus how we are as people moving around inside an industry and a business--you can't separate one from the other.
ME: And is that what you think is burning so many people out? Having to juggle both those things?
THEM: Probably. It's a factor in me burning out, but I--I don't know how else to be. I don't know how to not want to, um, impress people who are in positions to help me get further in my career. I feel like you'd be crazy not to want to impress those people--and some of them are nice and respectable and they're people you SHOULD want to impress, but yeah, some aren't, and either way, you can't just forget about them. You can't ignore them.
ME: And by aligning yourself with them, you're risking throwing it all away anyway.
THEM: It's all risk. So much of it is risk, yeah, and I think--that's why I recoiled when I read the person you were talking to say--talk about consequences, because--I was like, 'Wow, that could be me.'
ME: Did you feel bad hearing her talk about the effects it had on her having people play these kinds of games? Tearing other people down to create this idea of exclusivity?
THEM: It did. Yeah, it did.
ME: Did it stop you from doing it?
THEM: No, it didn't. We don't--where I'm from--we don't have one wolf. We have a lot of little wolves, and in a way, I think that's almost worse, because--it wouldn't be the case where we would take down one person and everything changes like magic. It would need to be a much more complicated conversation about making little adjustments here and there, and the problem is, the people at the top have really gotten a lot out of having things be the way they are, so why would they want to change the rules, you know? That wouldn't make any sense for them.
ME: And what about everybody else?
THEM: There's always that fear that if you--if you strike out--if you take your shot, and you miss? You're done. So--anybody trying to change things--that's taking the shot. And I don't know if anybody's got the guts to really do that knowing it might mean they never come back from it.
ME: So instead you just keep playing the game?
THEM: What else can we do, you know? It's like--what else is there to do?
Them is currently playing the game, but thinking about walking away.
This week's Them is someone who identifies as a person who is still actively trying to play the game even though it might be the thing driving them away from doing theater altogether.
Here's the interview:
ME: Before we start, let's just make it clear that you are not Canadian.
THEM: (Laughs.) I am not.
ME: But you said the part about what should happen to the supporters of the Wolf really struck you.
-- Need a refresher? Go to http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2019/07/an-update-on-theater-and-big-bad-wolf.html --
THEM: It did, because, um--I found it to be a little unfair.
ME: Unfair to who?
THEM: To the people who--who are trying to sort of--Okay, I guess I should say that what I found interesting about that whole series of interviews was that--there was this--I guess naivete?--That somehow there's a way around dealing with people like that. Like the Wolf. And that it's not all just part of the game, and so, um, so people who were siding with him, it's like, maybe they were just trying to do the best they could.
ME: To play the game?
THEM: Yes.
ME: So you think you just have to live with people like the Wolf?
THEM: I think you have to know how to, um, you know, maneuver around them. I'm not saying you should be forced to put up with, uh, how they are, but the fact is, we're talking about a lot of people in power, and, you know, if people look at that and decide they're best option is to, you know, keep your enemies closer, then I don't think we should judge them for that, you know? It's like--they're doing what they have to do.
ME: But it's not for survival, it's for advancement.
THEM: Maybe to them survival is advancement. These are people who might need to pay their bills and maybe the person standing in the way of them doing that is, uh, an abuser, right?
ME: But how do you interact with an abuser without tolerating the abuse or looking the other way when somebody else is being abused?
THEM: I think you get yourself to a higher position than they are and then you do something.
ME: Don't a lot of abusers--isn't that exactly what they're on the lookout for? To make sure nobody becomes more powerful than them?
THEM: I just think when you're talking about enablers and punishing enablers--are we talking about people who, like, gleefully enabled or people who felt like they had no other choice?
ME: You were telling me that you sort of--unapologetically play the game.
THEM: Um, yeah, I would say I do.
ME: And can we just talk about--you're saying the game as in--being an actor--a working actor--getting roles--getting gigs--you think there's a game element to all that?
THEM: Yes.
ME: And have you always felt that?
THEM: I didn't feel it so much when I was in school. I was enrolled in a university that had a very small theater department so there was, uh, plenty of wealth to go around. It wasn't until I moved to where I am now that I felt like, Oh, this is the rat race people are talking about. This is where it is. This is something you have to be smart about.
ME: Do you feel comfortable saying where you live now?
THEM: Uh. I'd rather not.
ME: That's okay.
THEM: But I'm sure it's not that much different from anywhere else. There are cliques. There are people who--every place has their favorites.
ME: There are warring factions?
THEM: (Laughs.) Oh yes.
ME: And you decided the best thing for you to do was to join one of them?
THEM: I don't know that I had a choice in the matter.
ME: Couldn't you just sort of float between the factions?
THEM: I guess I could have tried it. Have you ever done that?
ME: Yeah, I--Well for me, I never really wanted to be associated with only one theater. Or even two theaters. I wanted to just be this individual who traveled between different groups so I wouldn't get bored.
THEM: How did that work out?
ME: Uh, it went okay, and then I started my own theater, so I kind of had to go all-in on that.
THEM: Here, uh, where I'm living, if you're this sort of--individual who's trying to play all sides--
ME: It's not necessarily playing--
THEM: Playing all sides might not be--but that's how some people look at it, uh, and if it's perceived that that's what you're trying to do, you're going to have a hard time of it.
ME: What do you mean?
THEM: There are people in each group--who work at each group--who are owed roles, right? And they're owed those roles, because they've dedicated time, energy, you know, to those groups, and so if you're just coming in and out when you feel like it, you're never going to be able to rise up to a place where you can be in a position to, you know, really get a role you want.
ME: But even those people--the ones who are loyal or dedicated--that doesn't always pan out for them either?
THEM: Right, but I think you just have to hope it does, because what's the alternative? I don't want to start my own company. I don't like the idea of producing or creating my own content or--So I rely on other people to give me roles, give me projects, that kind of thing, so I have to do what I think is smart in order to, uh, get those roles and those projects.
ME: Like the people in the Wolf interviews who we were talking about--who sort of put all their eggs in his basket.
THEM: I've done that. Not with someone who, uh, was abusive or malicious to that extent, but I've definitely hitched my star to a few people over the years. And not all of them were the nicest of people.
ME: And did it work out?
THEM: In one case, it is currently working out, yeah. I feel very fulfilled.
ME: And would you say you're completely devoted to this person?
THEM: I--I have a good working relationship with them.
ME: So they've done a lot for you?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Would they have done as much if you weren't as dedicated?
THEM: You mean if I wasn't as loyal? I would hope not.
ME: Not loyal, necessarily, but--if you weren't all in with them, so to speak.
THEM: I think that is loyalty though. It's--look, if you're rehearsing with me, and I know that you just worked with another theater, and maybe I want to crack a joke about that theater, am I going to look over at you and wonder if that's going to make you uncomfortable? I don't want to have to worry about stuff like that, you know? People want to be able to speak freely.
ME: But it sounds like--you're making it sound like free speech--it's really about wanting to trash another theater in a rehearsal and feeling like that's okay because everyone there is on your team.
THEM: And see, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
ME: You don't?
THEM: No.
ME: So let's say what happened to the guy in Canada happened to this guy you're aligning yourself with now--where would you be?
THEM: I think...I think it would be very difficult for me.
ME: Have you done things that were out-of-line against other people or other theaters as a way of endearing yourself to this person?
THEM: I've talked some trash, yeah. Everybody does that.
ME: And so you'd really be in tough shape.
THEM: That's why I reached out to you. I--I think it's unfair to punish--Listen, the people at the top, who take advantage and act like they can get away with it? Drag them all you want. Have fun. But the person--and this has come up before in your interviews--this is a system. And we're all trying to do our best within the system. So to say--Well, now the system is changing and let's punish ALL the people who did well in the previous system just by virtue of the fact that they did well in it--that doesn't seem fair to me.
ME: But in this case, you're doing well because you're--I know you said your--that the person you have that relationship with isn't an abuser, but--you're engaging in behavior that might be hurting other people to--again, to advance yourself. I don't see why it would be unfair to--if everything turned around--to say, 'Well, now you have to pay for it.'
THEM: Because I was acting in the reality that I was given, Kevin. I am not in charge of the rules. And I don't see what's wrong with saying 'I played by the rules and I did well because I knew how to do that.' I won't mind playing by new rules once they get here, but that--what came up in that interview you said was basically--that I shouldn't even be given a chance.
ME: I can't speak for the person I interviewed, but for me, it's more about--all these people who didn't want to play by those rules--don't you think they should get first crack at it?
THEM: Because they've been acting all high and mighty sitting off to the side--
ME: Because they've been kept down--
THEM: Not all of them.
ME: Isn't it--don't you think the argument you're trying to use about--I was just going with the flow--that's the same argument abusers use. They say, 'Oh, you used to be able to grab your secretary's ass and it was fine. I didn't know that was the wrong thing to do.'
THEM: This isn't as cut and dry as that.
ME: We need some concrete examples here, I think.
THEM: Like what?
ME: Let's just--I just want to illustrate, if possible, how ridiculous things can get when you're treating participating in the arts like a game of chess.
THEM: Okay.
ME: Because the person I interviewed--and I know this is a different place than where you're from, but--I'm curious--have you ever avoided working somewhere because it was someplace the person you're--your guy--it's somewhere he doesn't approve of?
THEM: Uh. I'd like to think if I really wanted to work somewhere--
ME: So have you ever really wanted to work somewhere, but didn't, because you knew it wouldn't go over well with someone you wanted to impress?
THEM: Yes.
ME: How did you feel about that?
THEM: I felt--I didn't feel anything about it.
ME: Did it bother you that you had to make that choice?
THEM: I--like I said, I didn't really think about it.
ME: Why would it have bothered the person or people you wanted to impress if you worked there?
THEM: Because that place is a place that's considered to, uh, put out stuff of lower quality.
ME: Maybe you could have raised the quality?
THEM: Maybe.
ME: And who determines quality?
THEM: It's a matter of taste, I guess.
ME: Because we've also talked about gatekeepers in these interviews.
THEM: Yeah, that could be a gatekeeper thing.
ME: And are you only judged for working at these places or if you see things there as well?
THEM: I don't think you're judged as harshly just for seeing things, but, um, nobody's telling you that you should go see things at some of these places either, and there's, uh, expected attendance at the places or--at the things--where the people you want to impress are.
ME: I can't wait until I post this interview and people in Rhode Island act surprised and horrified to hear all this.
THEM: Does it happen there too?
ME: Oh yes.
THEM: Have you ever participated in it?
ME: Uh, yes.
THEM: Do you still?
ME: I don't care as much. It's--it's honestly exhausting.
THEM: It is.
ME: To try and juggle where you should be, who you should work with--
THEM: It's what makes me want to walk away.
ME: You've thought about quitting?
THEM: All the time.
ME: What if you just said 'To hell with it, I'm not doing this anymore' and just--followed your own path? Worked with who you want, did projects with--
THEM: Because I do take this seriously--not just as a craft, but as a profession--and so, I don't know why I should feel like this should be any different in terms of--what you have to do as part of a profession to get ahead.
ME: Not every profession is like that.
THEM: Professions where there's this much competition?
ME: But is the competition good for the art?
THEM: That's--I think that's a legitimate question, but, you know, the reality of it--
ME: Is saying 'the reality of it' a way of brushing these kinds of questions aside?
THEM: I'm not trying to--
ME: No, I know you're not trying to, but is it a way of--
THEM: Look, these things have to co-exist. How we are as artists versus how we are as people moving around inside an industry and a business--you can't separate one from the other.
ME: And is that what you think is burning so many people out? Having to juggle both those things?
THEM: Probably. It's a factor in me burning out, but I--I don't know how else to be. I don't know how to not want to, um, impress people who are in positions to help me get further in my career. I feel like you'd be crazy not to want to impress those people--and some of them are nice and respectable and they're people you SHOULD want to impress, but yeah, some aren't, and either way, you can't just forget about them. You can't ignore them.
ME: And by aligning yourself with them, you're risking throwing it all away anyway.
THEM: It's all risk. So much of it is risk, yeah, and I think--that's why I recoiled when I read the person you were talking to say--talk about consequences, because--I was like, 'Wow, that could be me.'
ME: Did you feel bad hearing her talk about the effects it had on her having people play these kinds of games? Tearing other people down to create this idea of exclusivity?
THEM: It did. Yeah, it did.
ME: Did it stop you from doing it?
THEM: No, it didn't. We don't--where I'm from--we don't have one wolf. We have a lot of little wolves, and in a way, I think that's almost worse, because--it wouldn't be the case where we would take down one person and everything changes like magic. It would need to be a much more complicated conversation about making little adjustments here and there, and the problem is, the people at the top have really gotten a lot out of having things be the way they are, so why would they want to change the rules, you know? That wouldn't make any sense for them.
ME: And what about everybody else?
THEM: There's always that fear that if you--if you strike out--if you take your shot, and you miss? You're done. So--anybody trying to change things--that's taking the shot. And I don't know if anybody's got the guts to really do that knowing it might mean they never come back from it.
ME: So instead you just keep playing the game?
THEM: What else can we do, you know? It's like--what else is there to do?
Them is currently playing the game, but thinking about walking away.
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