First off, if you haven't read the first two parts of this series, I would suggest you do that now, by clicking on these two links:
ME: No, you brought the hammer. I just opened the toolbox.
Over the weekend, I received a text from the person I interviewed in the first piece letting me know that as a result of the two interviews, the "Wolf" had been asked to resign from the two boards he serves on in their area and that an investigation was underway regarding his past actions.
I asked my anonymous friend from the first interview if they could call me so we could talk about this update, and this was the conversation that transpired.
ME: This is really incredible news.
THEM: I'm shaking. I haven't stopped shaking.
ME: So how did you find out all this was happening?
THEM: There wasn't a big announcement, you know. This is all being done behind the scenes, and uh, you know, I'm sure it's not a coincidence that they took these actions over a weekend--right after a holiday weekend--
THEM: There wasn't a big announcement, you know. This is all being done behind the scenes, and uh, you know, I'm sure it's not a coincidence that they took these actions over a weekend--right after a holiday weekend--
ME: You think they were trying to bury it?
THEM: I do.
THEM: I do.
ME: I have some experience with that lately.
THEM: With burying things?
ME: I mean, yes, but also with having things be buried.
ME: I mean, yes, but also with having things be buried.
THEM: Isn't it weird that it still kind of works?
ME: It didn't work here.
ME: It didn't work here.
THEM: No, I mean, I found out because someone on the board of one of these theaters reached out to me to tell me what was going on, and then, all of a sudden, it just exploded on social media. Everybody was talking about it.
ME: Were the details coming from all over or from your one source?
THEM: I think theater people like to gossip, and so, once it became clear how much attention you could get from, uh, having information about this, I think people were willing to talk, you know. There were a lot of parties and summer gatherings over the weekend, and it's all anybody was talking about, and so, if you had something to offer, you wouldn't want to hang back and not speak up about it.
THEM: I think theater people like to gossip, and so, once it became clear how much attention you could get from, uh, having information about this, I think people were willing to talk, you know. There were a lot of parties and summer gatherings over the weekend, and it's all anybody was talking about, and so, if you had something to offer, you wouldn't want to hang back and not speak up about it.
ME: Are people still defending him?
THEM: Oh yes. The person from your interview for example.
THEM: Oh yes. The person from your interview for example.
ME: (Laughs.) Still hanging on.
THEM: I mean, after that, it's like--what are you going to do? Just change your mind?
ME: You can. You can just say you're wrong.
ME: You can. You can just say you're wrong.
THEM: Does anybody say they're wrong anymore?
ME: I don't, but--
ME: I don't, but--
THEM: (Laughs.) There are some people who are trying to flip. I shouldn't make it sound like there aren't.
ME: What do you mean by flip?
THEM: So. They're people who...have worked with this person before, and, uh, you know, maybe weren't very vocal about defending him, but weren't coming out against him either, and were sort of--waiting to see how things would shake out, and, uh, now they're reaching out to everybody saying, Oh, I was against him all along.
THEM: So. They're people who...have worked with this person before, and, uh, you know, maybe weren't very vocal about defending him, but weren't coming out against him either, and were sort of--waiting to see how things would shake out, and, uh, now they're reaching out to everybody saying, Oh, I was against him all along.
ME: So, cowards, basically?
THEM: Uh, that's harsh, but, um, not wrong.
THEM: Uh, that's harsh, but, um, not wrong.
ME: (Laughs.) Who are they reaching out to? You?
THEM: Me, but also, you know, I talked about those other theaters that he vilified or dismissed and how, um, nobody who was on his team would work there, and they would make it clear that they thought less of those places, and now, uh, it's hard for them, or it's going to be hard, because in addition to him being--being cast out of these theaters--you know, his favorites are going to have to be to, or that's what they're thinking anyway--
THEM: Me, but also, you know, I talked about those other theaters that he vilified or dismissed and how, um, nobody who was on his team would work there, and they would make it clear that they thought less of those places, and now, uh, it's hard for them, or it's going to be hard, because in addition to him being--being cast out of these theaters--you know, his favorites are going to have to be to, or that's what they're thinking anyway--
ME: Because they're complicit?
THEM: Right. And, uh, I think they're trying to cover their bases, and uh, they're reaching out to some of those companies that were on his no-fly list and say 'Ohhh, I've ALWAYS wanted to work with you.'
THEM: Right. And, uh, I think they're trying to cover their bases, and uh, they're reaching out to some of those companies that were on his no-fly list and say 'Ohhh, I've ALWAYS wanted to work with you.'
ME: People are shameless.
THEM: Aren't they?
ME: That would be Rhode Island too.
ME: That would be Rhode Island too.
THEM: Really?
ME: Oh yeah, we have a lot of game-players in Rhode Island too.
ME: Oh yeah, we have a lot of game-players in Rhode Island too.
THEM: Yeah, I saw in the comments section of the links you posted that you were kind of calling some people out.
ME: I mean, not by name, but it was funny to see these people in my comments going 'Oh, this guy sounds awful' and I want to be like 'Uh, the last person that directed you was just as bad, but sure, let's play O' Distant Villain, Shame on Thee.'
THEM: (Laughs.) So there's a Wolf in your community too?
ME: I'd say there are at least three, but that's okay--
ME: I'd say there are at least three, but that's okay--
THEM: Broccoli's coming.
ME: (Laughs.) He's got a new hankering for justice and too much time on his hands.
THEM: You have no time on your hands.
ME: I really don't.
THEM: But I'm so happy you did this. It's--Kevin, this, um--I'm sorry.
ME: Don't you make me cry. You're going to ruin my brand.
THEM: I--um--I really did not think this was possible. And I--I was so scared to talk to you, that first time--I was really sick about it, and this--this is just amazing. It really is.
ME: Why do you think his supporters shared the interview in the first place? If they hadn't done that--
THEM: I know. It would never have gone the way it did.
ME: So why--
THEM: I think they thought they could get in front of it. I really do. And I think--I think he thought that too, and I'm sure he was encouraging them to come out for him. He still hasn't made any kind of statement or addressed it at all.
ME: Really?
THEM: Not at all.
THEM: Not at all.
ME: So he's not stupid.
THEM: No, he's, uh...He's a lot of things, but he's not stupid. Not in that way, anyway.
ME: It's just kind of poetic that by trying to defend him, they were his undoing.
THEM: I won't say I didn't enjoy that.
ME: And you said people have been calling you about the interview?
THEM: Once they--once this all started coming out over the weekend--I had people reaching out to me who I have not spoken to in years.
THEM: Once they--once this all started coming out over the weekend--I had people reaching out to me who I have not spoken to in years.
ME: And what were they saying?
THEM: That...That they didn't know how--what a big, um, thing this was for me. How upset by it I was. Some people were trading war stories.
THEM: That...That they didn't know how--what a big, um, thing this was for me. How upset by it I was. Some people were trading war stories.
ME: Other victims?
THEM: Yes, although, I don't like 'victim' but--
THEM: Yes, although, I don't like 'victim' but--
ME: I'm sorry.
THEM: No, it's okay, but yeah, people who--went through similar situations.
ME: I've had that happen with me too. People who live here coming to me talking about things they've gone through.
THEM: And you've gone through it too, I know.
ME: I have, yeah. Nobody ever threw a chair at me, but--
THEM: Give it time.
ME: My actors might. I'm in tech right now.
THEM: Has doing this made you nicer?
ME: During tech or in general?
THEM: Either.
ME: During tech or in general?
THEM: Either.
ME: Definitely...not in general.
THEM: (Laughs.) But tech at least?
ME: Maybe during tech. Ask me on Thursday. Or ask my actors.
ME: Maybe during tech. Ask me on Thursday. Or ask my actors.
THEM: You know what I always wanted to ask, um, him--the Wolf?
ME: What?
THEM: Do you like us?
ME: What?
THEM: Do you like us?
ME: Us being--
THEM: The people you're working with. That you're screaming at. That you're--I, it's like, I can't imagine that...that he thought--that he even thought he respected us. But--I wonder if he thought he liked us. Or that it came across--or if it didn't matter--whether or not he did.
ME: Did you need him to like you?
(Pause.)
THEM: I guess...I wanted him to. Yes. Maybe that's why I put up with it for so--I wanted him approval. I wanted--I wanted to be good enough that he wouldn't feel the need to behave that way with me.
(Pause.)
THEM: I guess...I wanted him to. Yes. Maybe that's why I put up with it for so--I wanted him approval. I wanted--I wanted to be good enough that he wouldn't feel the need to behave that way with me.
ME: But in this case, good wouldn't mean talented.
THEM: Yeah. I didn't--I don't know if I got that at the time. I still don't know if I really get it.
ME: Do you think that he thinks he made you better? As an actor?
THEM: A hundred percent yes. And...I think his supporters think he did that for them too.
THEM: A hundred percent yes. And...I think his supporters think he did that for them too.
ME: Oh, I know they do, just read my interview.
THEM: (Laughs.) That was wild. I have to say.
ME: Do you think she regrets that interview?
THEM: Uh...you know what? I don't care. I don't care about her. Like, I wish her well, but--I just don't care.
THEM: Uh...you know what? I don't care. I don't care about her. Like, I wish her well, but--I just don't care.
ME: You sound more disgusted with her than him.
THEM: I mean--he's facing consequences now, you know? He might--he might face the loss of his livelihood. And, uh, that's huge. She--she'll probably just have to wait a bit and then she can go work wherever, you know? Nobody's going to want to hold her accountable for very long.
ME: Why not?
THEM: I guess because we're all complicit. You said complicit--we all are. She is. I am. Every single person. This happened in plain sight. And so--if you start talking about that--about accountability--where does it end? Or where does it begin, I guess I should say. Where do you start? But I think in some cases, there should be consequences for people who were really--who really went all in with him, because--they didn't have to do that. A lot of people did what they had to do to work and further themselves, and, uh, in certain cases, pay the bills, but not everybody needed to become his cheerleader. Not everybody needed to, uh, shout it from the rafters how much they loved and admired him. That was a choice on their part, and I think--I think those people should have to pay for that. I do.
THEM: I guess because we're all complicit. You said complicit--we all are. She is. I am. Every single person. This happened in plain sight. And so--if you start talking about that--about accountability--where does it end? Or where does it begin, I guess I should say. Where do you start? But I think in some cases, there should be consequences for people who were really--who really went all in with him, because--they didn't have to do that. A lot of people did what they had to do to work and further themselves, and, uh, in certain cases, pay the bills, but not everybody needed to become his cheerleader. Not everybody needed to, uh, shout it from the rafters how much they loved and admired him. That was a choice on their part, and I think--I think those people should have to pay for that. I do.
ME: Like the person I talked to?
THEM: Uh. Yes.
THEM: Uh. Yes.
ME: What would the proper consequences be?
THEM: I mean...(A big sigh.)...I...
THEM: I mean...(A big sigh.)...I...
ME: Are you okay?
THEM: Yeah.
THEM: Yeah.
ME: You want a break?
THEM: No, uh...This part is hard.
THEM: No, uh...This part is hard.
ME: So let's take a break. We can take a break. I'll just write 'Break' it's not like we're going to keep anybody waiting.
THEM: (Laughs.) That's true.
ME: I'll call you back in ten minutes.
THEM: Okay, thank you.
-- Break --
ME: See, that was easy.
THEM: I just had a major breakdown.
ME: You did?
THEM: Yeah.
THEM: Yeah.
ME: Thinking about him or the supporters or--
THEM: Thinking about how you asked what I think the consequences should be for the people who really rallied behind him, and uh--These people kept other people from working. They got other people--people like me--to just...stop doing theater. To quit. They made up rumors--either at his request or--They...They enabled harassment to happen. They put people in danger. In dangerous situations. And there were--there were people in power--and we know this now, we know this because now they've put a stop to it--but that means they could have put a stop to it a long time ago and didn't. And they didn't. And that--I'm so happy but I'm--I'm still very angry about that part of it.
ME: Can you forgive them?
THEM: I'll have to. For my own sake, I'll have to.
THEM: I'll have to. For my own sake, I'll have to.
ME: Can you forgive him?
THEM: Um. Well. Forgiveness isn't a decision, right? It's a process.
THEM: Um. Well. Forgiveness isn't a decision, right? It's a process.
ME: That's great.
THEM: So--I'm not ready to start that process yet, but...I'll need to. Same as with the others.
ME: And if you never start it; that's okay.
THEM: But I want to, I do.
ME: I just realized how dick it is of me to ask you about forgiving him so soon after--
THEM: No, it's not. It's fine, Kevin. Really. It's a good--it's an important question to ask. And, uh, it's something I'm going to have to think about if I want to do theater again.
ME: Has this moved you in one direction or another regarding that?
THEM: It has. I feel--I feel more ready to try to get back to it. I think--I think I'd like to help kind of--create a new environment to do it in.
THEM: It has. I feel--I feel more ready to try to get back to it. I think--I think I'd like to help kind of--create a new environment to do it in.
ME: Maybe start a theater of your own?
THEM: (Laughs.) I don't know if I could do that.
THEM: (Laughs.) I don't know if I could do that.
ME: I don't recommend it.
THEM: You're really grumpy, you know that?
ME: It's my thing. I'm a curmudgeon.
ME: It's my thing. I'm a curmudgeon.
THEM: Every time I tell you that you're an angel for doing this--
ME: No, I'm a terrible person, but I think that came in handy in this situation.
THEM: Why do you say that?
ME: Because this guy was a bully and sometimes you need a bully to take out another bully.
ME: Because this guy was a bully and sometimes you need a bully to take out another bully.
THEM: You see yourself as a bully?
ME: In a lot of circumstances, yes.
ME: In a lot of circumstances, yes.
THEM: So you're like a bully for good? For change, I mean?
ME: I could be. I just--when you were describing this guy, I was like--We are not going to Kumbaya him out of existence. Sometimes you need a feather and sometimes you need a hammer.
THEM: You brought the hammer.
ME: No, you brought the hammer. I just opened the toolbox.
THEM: Who you going after next? Someone closer to home?
ME: I don't know if I want this to be a Take-Down blog. That's not really what my intention was.
THEM: Your intention was to talk to people about why they quit theater, right?
ME: Yeah.
ME: Yeah.
THEM: People like this are the reason a lot of us quit.
ME: Well, there's a balance in terms of what to write about. I'll try to strike the right balance.
THEM: Okay, but before you move on, do you want to talk to my friend on the board?
ME: The board that got rid of the Wolf?
THEM: Yeah. He said he'd talk to you if you kept it anonymous.
ME: I think I can do that.
Them is living in Canada and is hoping to return to theater soon.
Comments
Post a Comment