Over the summer, I was referred to someone who had a toxic experience with an arts leader in their community. I dubbed that arts leader "The Big Bad Wolf" and then followed up the interview with someone who defended The Wolf.
Then, that community--for all intents and purposes--exploded.
Although the subject of the interview was kept anonymous, it still made its way back to where the Wolf was doing theater, and subsequently, he was taken off two separate boards, and an investigation was started at multiple theaters regarding his actions.
I assumed that was the end of it, but a few weeks ago, the Wolf reached out asking if he could speak to me. My initial reaction was that I didn't want to give him a platform, but after speaking with some of the people affected by his actions--and realizing this might be their only chance to get answers from him via an interview--I said, 'Okay.'
We spoke with a lawyer on the line, and this is the interview:
ME: Hello.
THEM: Hello Mr. Broccoli.
ME: Should I say hello to your lawyer?
THEM: You can. He's just here to keep me in check.
ME: Okay. Well this is my first time speaking to someone with their lawyer listening in.
THEM: I'm just making sure I don't make his job harder down the line.
ME: What do you mean?
THEM: I'll leave it at that for now.
ME: Okay. Can I ask why you wanted to speak with me?
THEM: I wanted to see if I could correct a few things that were said about me in some of your other interviews.
ME: Such as?
THEM: Well, I think I came across sounding like a real devil. Like a monster.
ME: What specifically was said about you that wasn't true?
THEM: I can't really go into specifics about was or wasn't true, because I don't want to--
ME: Then I don't really see the point of this.
THEM: It's more about the tone that was taken.
ME: You didn't like...the tone?
THEM: I felt it was very one-sided. Don't you think?
ME: Well, this is your chance to tell your side provided you can give me counter examples to what was said.
THEM: If--Have I made mistakes? Yes. I'm not a saint. And I get angry--just like everybody else does.
ME: Everybody else doesn't throw chairs.
THEM: As far as the chair goes--
ME: That's just where I wanted to start. We can go other places.
THEM: You've never gotten mad?
ME: I've gotten very mad.
THEM: Have you ever--You know, I've spoken to a few people about you. People where you live.
ME: Oh, have you?
THEM: Yes.
ME: And just what did you learn about me?
THEM: Well, Kevin, I learned that you might not be the best person to be going after other people when it comes to--
ME: Oh, I'm a real a**hole. But I could have told you that. You didn't need to go on a fact-finding mission.
THEM: But you're doing interviews where you--You're saying--Oh, he threw a chair. Oh, he made someone feel bad. He called someone a f***ing idiot.
ME: You did all those things though, correct?
THEM: I've gotten angry. And so have you from what I--
ME: Yes, I--can we stop for a second?
THEM: I--
ME: If you want to make this interview about whatever little bits of information you found out about me so you can have some kinda narrative twist, I'll save you the trouble. I've said horrible things to people. I've made people cry. I've definitely burned people out. I've taken advantage of people. I've manipulated people. I can put together a publicity stunt with the best of them, and I have flat-out lied about everything under the sun.
THEM: You--
ME: Wait wait wait, you wanted to get all my bad stuff down on the record. Let's make sure we do that before--
THEM: You won't write up any of that though.
ME: Won't I? Yes, I will.
THEM: This is--
ME: But this isn't the Kevin Broccoli Roast. You reached out. You wanted to talk. I'm not talking to you right now because I wrote that I'm a saint and I'm out for revenge. I don't know if I've done worse than you, but I've done a lot of pretty bad stuff, which I think makes me even more qualified to talk to you, because I don't think a saint would know how to handle it, whereas I can assure you, I've dealt with people like you before, and I've been someone like you--
THEM: Still?
ME: Still. Yes. Sure. I'm a nightmare. That's why I'm fully equipped to deal with you. They brought in the snake to deal with the rat. That's what I think this is and I'm very happy to be the snake.
THEM: Is all this off the record?
ME: Nothing's off the record.
THEM: Can I ask you one more thing?
ME: Go ahead.
THEM: What's the thing you've lied about the most?
ME: Telling men they're good at something when they're not. Ready to move on?
THEM: Do you want to calm down first?
ME: I'm never calm. Are we ready or should I call you back when you're done trying to gotcha me?
THEM: I'm ready now.
ME: Great. Did you ever throw a chair at someone?
THEM: No.
ME: Did you ever throw a chair?
THEM: I've gotten--
ME: Yes or no.
THEM: I'm not going--
ME: I want a yes or a no or we can end this now. This isn't going in some court document. Your lawyer can relax. You're anonymous. Feel liberated to speak the truth.
THEM: I have thrown things when angry but not at anyone.
ME: Near someone?
THEM: This is not productive.
ME: And you've called people f***ing idiots?
THEM: I've said lots of things I regret.
ME: Why do you regret them?
THEM: What?
ME: Why do you regret calling someone a f***ing idiot?
THEM: Because it was inappropriate and unprofessional.
ME: Was it hurtful do you think?
THEM: I...I'm sure it was.
ME: Do you think it hurt the people you said it to?
THEM: I'm sure I did.
ME: Did you think it was going to hurt them when you said it?
THEM: I probably wasn't thinking. I don't when I'm angry. Do you?
ME: Was the point for it to hurt them?
THEM: Why would that be the point?
ME: So you could break them down?
THEM: Why?
ME: So you could feel more powerful?
THEM: No.
ME: Have you apologized to any of those people since you're acknowledging that you hurt them?
THEM: I have not had the opportunity to do so yet.
ME: When do you plan on creating that opportunity for yourself?
THEM: I'm not sure they would want to hear from me right now.
ME: That's true, but I don't see what that has to do with you apologizing. You can apologize right now if you want to. Do you want to?
THEM: I would.
ME: Okay.
THEM: When I get angry--
ME: No, no. Just try apologizing. Don't qualify. Just apologize.
THEM: You're very combative.
ME: No, I'm just anxious and this is how it's manifesting itself. You telling me you've been secretly talking to people where I live who don't like kinda threw me, but I'll steady sooner or later, don't worry.
THEM: That wasn't--
ME: Do you not want to apologize?
THEM: I apologize if I said things I shouldn't have. How's that?
ME: People are so bad at apologizing these days.
THEM: Are you good at it?
ME: I'm terrible at it, that's why I don't do it very often, but I'm working on it.
THEM: Maybe somebody should do an interview with you.
ME: That's what I pay a therapist for. Do you sit in on season auditions?
THEM: Not anymore. I've been asked to--
ME: Have you sat in on season auditions in the past?
THEM: Where?
ME: At theaters you've worked at.
THEM: I was a director at several theaters so it made sense to--
ME: Were there other directors in the room with you?
THEM: There was the Artistic Director.
ME: And all the other directors?
THEM: It was up to the Artistic Director who was in the room. Not me.
ME: Why do you think you were the only guest director in the room?
THEM: I don't know. You'd have to ask [Name of AD].
ME: So you didn't ask to be in the room?
THEM: I'd always like to be in the room if I can be, but I wouldn't have said 'Make me the only guest director in the room.'
ME: You didn't think it was strange that you were the only one?
THEM: I wasn't always the only one.
ME: But often you were?
THEM: I don't know what you're getting at.
ME: Three different directors who worked at the theaters you worked at where you were allowed to be in the room for season auditions have reached out to me to say that when they asked to be in the room and were told they couldn't be, they were told that you made it a demand that you be in the room and that special accommodations were made for you specifically for reasons nobody knew. And that actors they specifically wanted to work with were not put on their callback list even though they made it clear they would like to work with those people. They were told they were unavailable or that there was some reason they couldn't do the show. The connective tissue between those actors is that you didn't like them. And when the directors finally reached out to those actors, it turned out none of them were unavailable.
THEM: There's a lot of speculation there. And rumors.
ME: Does any of it sound plausible?
THEM: That actors didn't get cast because I didn't like them?
ME: Yes.
THEM: They wouldn't have been cast in my shows if I didn't like them. I'll say that.
ME: But you wouldn't have blocked them from being in someone else's shows?
THEM: The only people who can decide not to cast actors are Artistic Directors and I've never been an Artistic Director so I've never had that power.
ME: But you had influence?
THEM: I'm sure I've had--I've had people listen to me.
ME: Have you ever advised people not to use certain actors just because you didn't like them?
THEM: Well, everybody does that. If I didn't think they were talented--
ME: Do you think your opinion held more weight when you made that kind of suggestion?
THEM: It might have. I don't know.
ME: But you would know if it did if you didn't see that person get cast after you suggested they not be, right?
THEM: It's not a crime to give someone advice.
ME: But do you feel good knowing that you prevented people from working just because you personally didn't like them?
THEM: If I didn't think they were talented. If I didn't think they could act.
ME: But if you--
THEM: That's how everybody gets work or doesn't get work. People have to like you. Do I have to explain to you how the world works, Mr. Broccoli? Mr. Writer who's supposed to understand people?
ME: Did someone once not get cast at a theater you were working at because you found out they didn't like a show you directed?
THEM: I don't remember something like that happening.
ME: Would you try to stop someone from working at a theater if they didn't like a show you directed?
THEM: I'm sure I'd get over it eventually.
ME: Eventually?
THEM: Eventually.
ME: But you'd hold a grudge?
THEM: Again, I'm human.
ME: Let's not go overboard. What did you think when you read the interviews and you heard how your actions have affected people?
THEM: People can be sensitive. Theater is--Theater is not a sensitive art form. It takes a lot out of you to do theater. It took a lot out of me. That might have lead to me doing things--saying things--that I'm not proud of. But when I started out, [Man's Name] did, uh--do you know who he is?
ME: No.
THEM: He was the, uh, let's say titan of where I'm from. Of [Name of City]. Remarkable man. Great artist. Wonderful director. And, uh, we--today we would call him--I think it's fair to say--a predator. He was--he did a lot of really bad things to a lot of, uh--
ME: To you?
THEM: To me. Yes. To a lot of people. Annnnnnnd there's a statue of him in front of the theater that I work at. That I used to work at.
ME: I'm not sure what your point is?
THEM: That I don't know--I don't know why all of a sudden everything's become about--Why I'm being targeted and as I was walking out of that theater the day I was brought in to speak to the board about, uh, your interview--I walked by that statue of that man who did a lot worse than I ever did to me and to my colleagues and, uh, and they walked me right by it. And it was like he was mocking me. Because nobody's doing interviews about him.
ME: If you're asking if I'll start a campaign to tear down that statue, then--Sure. Sign me up. But if you want sympathy because the music stopped and you weren't sitting in a chair, I can't really help you with that.
THEM: But when did it become unacceptable to demand excellence from people?
ME: Is that what you think he was doing when he was being a predator?
THEM: No, I'm saying I never did what he did, but now I have people calling me a predator. All i did was my job. I had to give people results. If the show wasn't finished or if it wasn't good, nobody was going to care how nice I made everybody feel. We had a director like that in town for awhile--we've had a few directors like that--and none of them work for very long, because they can't deliver.
ME: So the only way to deliver is your way?
THEM: It's the only way I know how to do it.
ME: But if you thought there were other ways, why didn't you try them?
THEM: I--
ME: When did everybody agree that screaming obscenities at people was the only way to achieve excellence?
THEM: I didn't hear anybody complaining--anybody at any of these theaters--when I was making them money. When I was selling out shows. Getting awards. Getting all those--
ME: If you didn't hear complaints, then maybe you weren't listening to the right people. Did you ever put your hands on someone?
(The lawyer interjects asking that we not talk about that incident. A short conversation happens. Then--)
ME: Okay. Would you...agree that putting your hands on someone qualifies as assault?
(The lawyer interjects.)
ME: I'm having second thoughts about letting your lawyer on the line.
THEM: I just want to say that I've never assaulted anyone in my life.
ME: I--Okay, well, we can't talk about it, according to your attorney, but I want to say that I have documentation that says otherwise, and we'll leave it at that. There are investigations into your conduct, aren't there?
THEM: Not that I'm aware of.
ME: Consider me making you aware of them.
THEM: I offered to stop working with those theaters, and as far as I know, that was the end of any investigations.
ME: Well, I will certainly be looking into that.
THEM: Please do.
ME: Because I haven't named any of those theaters, but I'd be happy to change that if they've made such a poor decision.
THEM: What good do you think investigations will do? I'm done. I'm not planning on--I know when to walk away.
ME: It's not about you. It's about the people affected by you. And maybe the theaters doing these investigations will figure out how to prevent someone like you from working there again.
THEM: There are still people working there who are--I think you can guess why they didn't want to push this issue very far. I wouldn't be the only person security had to show out.
ME: So you're saying it's a culture of bad behavior?
THEM: It's--It's the way we do things. I don't think it's fair to ask the people who run these places to change the way they do things. Maybe everybody else just needs to toughen up a little.
ME: You're using these very non-threatening terms, but when you say 'the way they do things,' and you're talking about the way you did things, what you're talking about is berating people, throwing temper tantrums, and intimidating them.
THEM: That's your perspective on it as someone who is not here and who does not--
ME: No, that's the perspective of over thirty people in my inbox right now who all say they were subject to abuse from you.
THEM: Many of whom probably worked with me more than once after they were allegedly abused.
ME: Just because they didn't beat the s*** out of you the first time you did it doesn't mean they weren't abused.
THEM: Was I married to any of them? Were there legal--
ME: Many of them are actors who say you had a controlling influence over many of the theaters in [Name of City] where they could get work. What were they supposed to do? I'm sure you were aware of the position they were in, and I'm sure that's why you behaved that way.
THEM: Because I'm such a svengali.
ME: I wouldn't give you that much credit. More like a warden.
THEM: I did a lot of good for a lot of people over the years. Did any of them tell you about that?
ME: And Phil Spector used to help people get hit records. What's your point?
THEM: A few lapses in judgment--
ME: These were not isolated incidents. You were--I have pages and pages of conversations--had with you--about systematically destroying any chance some of these people might have had at making a living in [Name of City].
THEM: And where did you get these?
ME: Well, I don't know the in's and out's of all your relationships, but some of them seem to be from people who were pretty good friends with you.
THEM: I don't think they were friends if they're speaking with you.
ME: Okay, well, you know that tweet you posted thanking all the people who've been standing by you during this 'difficult time?'
THEM: Yes.
ME: Every single one of them minus one person reached out to me.
THEM: I don't believe that.
ME: Oh, believe it.
THEM: You've already admitted to lying--
ME: Right, okay, so don't believe it. Maybe I'm lying. But think about what it would mean if I'm--
THEM: Why would they reach out to you?
ME: Because they secretly can't stand you and you're not useful to them anymore. That's my guess.
THEM: I think this is just something you're using to provoke me.
ME: Do you have a New Year's Eve party every year?
THEM: I do.
ME: And only your inner circle is invited, right?
THEM: That's incorrect. I invite a lot of people.
ME: Was there a year when only your inner circle was present?
THEM: There are different people there every year.
ME: Okay. Was there a year where you had everybody go around and impersonate who their least favorite actor in [Name of City] is? It was some sort of mean version of charades?
THEM: I don't remember doing that.
ME: Do you know there's a video of it?
THEM: Of me doing that? I wouldn't do something like that.
ME: Of other people doing it at your house. But you were in the same room. You were the one orchestrating--
THEM: What people might do at a party when they've been drinking--
ME: So you'd let them take the fall for it?
THEM: I can't take responsibility for something I haven't done.
ME: Are you under the impression that I don't have ways to back up everything I'm going to mention to you?
THEM: I'm sure you have a lot of information from people who enjoy seeing me in a vulnerable state.
ME: And why would people feel that way?
THEM: Because I did something with my life and they haven't.
ME: All right.
THEM: Much like you with these interviews.
ME: You think--
THEM: I think you're doing these interviews as a way to get attention for yourself since it doesn't seem like you have much else going for you.
ME: You're right. It's pretty much these interviews, dogs doing Shakespeare, and angry Oscar nominees. Can't say I've done much else.
THEM: I think it's very sad. I think it's unfortunate that you've chosen to use your platform to hurt innocent people.
ME: You think you're innocent?
THEM: I think I've been unfairly targeted.
ME: By me?
THEM: By you and people who want to see me brought down.
ME: I didn't even know who you were until I was connected with [Name].
THEM: I think that makes it worse. You're going after strangers. Why don't you try going after the people where you live.
ME: Oh, don't worry. That's the plan.
THEM: You're going to keep terrorizing people?
ME: No, just one person. I already have the interview ready. I'm just waiting until his birthday to post it.
THEM: You're a really--
ME: I have a question from someone you got blacklisted that sort of relates to what we're talking about.
THEM: I haven't--
ME: Can I ask the question?
THEM: If you want to.
ME: They want to know what it's going to feel like in five years when nobody knows who you are?
THEM: I don't really know how to answer that.
ME: Do you want to be remembered?
THEM: I--I don't think very much about it.
ME: Do you think you should be given another chance?
THEM: I don't think I deserve to be in this position at all so--
ME: Would you ever let someone else direct you?
THEM: I've been directed by other people.
ME: Not in a long time.
THEM: I had a hard time finding someone to direct me who I thought...Who got the most out of me as an actor.
ME: So you're too talented to be directed?
THEM: I never found someone I connected with in that way.
ME: Would you ever let yourself be in a position where you didn't have any power?
THEM: Aren't I there now?
ME: And how does that feel?
THEM: I...I feel, uh--It's a very low point for me. My lowest point. I've had--people have turned their backs on me. I've--It's been very difficult.
ME: Will you concede that--that it's possible that this--how you feel right now--is how you've made others feel at some point?
(Silence.)
THEM: I...I probably have. Yes.
ME: So how does knowing that feel in relation to how you yourself are feeling?
(Silence.)
THEM: I feel badly about that.
ME: Is that something you'd ask forgiveness for?
THEM: From--Uh...Yes. Yes, I would.
ME: Do you think there's any...benefit to you--at this moment--staying powerless for awhile?
(Short pause.)
THEM: There might be.
ME: Permanently, maybe?
THEM: I don't know.
ME: Do you think you're entitled to power?
THEM: No.
ME: Do you think anyone should be entitled to power?
THEM: That's--I felt I was a leader. And we--you have to have a leader.
ME: Do you think it would be the worst thing in the world if you weren't in that position again? To be a leader?
THEM: It's who I am so I--
ME: But shouldn't the people you were leading feel that you were good at it?
THEM: I--I thought they did feel that way. I--I did a lot of things for a lot of people that I can't talk about here, but that were--There were a lot of people who...got a lot out of me being in the position I was in.
ME: And is it fair to say that other people didn't get anything out of it--for whatever reason--maybe you didn't like them, or whatever--but is it fair to say that? That some people were negatively impacted by you being a leader?
THEM: Yes, well--that would be the case for anyone. You're better off if the person in charge--if you're on their good side.
ME: So the people who weren't on your good side did not benefit from you being in a position of authority? Is that fair to say?
THEM: Yes.
ME: So do you think it would be fair--to look at those people, who didn't benefit or were negatively impacted--and maybe future people who might have come along--who might not have benefited--and say, 'You know what? Maybe it's their turn. Maybe they should have somebody on their side in the leadership role.' Do you think that would be...the right thing?
(Silence.)
THEM: I think that's a...That's fair.
ME: Do you want to apologize to those people considering that--that you're willing to say, 'Maybe I treated you badly for reasons that were personal to me and you didn't deserve that?' Would you do that? Would you give that apology? Sincerely?
(A short pause.)
THEM: I would.
ME: You sound quieter now.
THEM: I'm...
ME: Because I just want to say--and this isn't me letting you off the hook at all, but just trying to figure out where your hang-up is here, and--you don't have to be a bad person to hurt people. And you don't--Depending on your way of looking at things, or anybody's way of looking at things, maybe there aren't any bad people. I don't know you. I don't know what kind of person you are. But if the hang-up here is, I can't bear to think of myself as a bad person. Then maybe--Don't try to unpack that. Just say, I did some bad things and I need to own that and deal with your bulls*** later. Because right now, people just want you to own something. They feel crazy. They feel gaslit. They've been made to feel ostracized and, uh, less than--as human beings. And they want someone to take responsibility for that. And I'm not saying they're going to forgive you, and they might never forgive you, and that's their choice, but you actually have the chance to do something for them, which is to say--You're not crazy. People were keeping you locked out. People were minimizing you behind your back. People were distancing you from opportunities. And if you do that--That's something at least. That's the reason I said I would talk to you, and that's what every person you know who's talked to me has--in one form or another--said they wanted. They just don't want to feel like it was their fault anymore. They don't want to think they're not talented. They don't want to think that really it was all about them being worthless and that you're actually--that you're the saint and they're the ones in the wrong. That's all they want. Really. Can you give them that?
THEM: But then it's 'It wasn't you, it was me' which is so--
ME: Yeah, that's infuriating to hear, so don't say that. That's really minimizing it. I'm talking about owning the whole--the whole cope of it.
THEM: I--I do own it.
(The lawyer starts to interject.)
ME: I'd like you to not talk now. Thank you. Appreciated but thank you.
THEM: It's okay.
ME: I'm asking if can you take responsibility?
THEM: I can. I--Yes, I can.
ME: And what do you want to say in regards to that?
THEM: That I'm sorry for hurting anyone that I've hurt and for...maliciously, uh, for conducting myself with malicious intent all these years towards...people that didn't deserve it. And I am sorry for that. I do regret it and I'm sorry. Nobody was crazy. It was--It was how you said it was. That's all I can.
ME: Okay. Then I think we're done.
THEM: Thank you.
That was the end of the Interview.
Then, that community--for all intents and purposes--exploded.
Although the subject of the interview was kept anonymous, it still made its way back to where the Wolf was doing theater, and subsequently, he was taken off two separate boards, and an investigation was started at multiple theaters regarding his actions.
I assumed that was the end of it, but a few weeks ago, the Wolf reached out asking if he could speak to me. My initial reaction was that I didn't want to give him a platform, but after speaking with some of the people affected by his actions--and realizing this might be their only chance to get answers from him via an interview--I said, 'Okay.'
We spoke with a lawyer on the line, and this is the interview:
ME: Hello.
THEM: Hello Mr. Broccoli.
ME: Should I say hello to your lawyer?
THEM: You can. He's just here to keep me in check.
ME: Okay. Well this is my first time speaking to someone with their lawyer listening in.
THEM: I'm just making sure I don't make his job harder down the line.
ME: What do you mean?
THEM: I'll leave it at that for now.
ME: Okay. Can I ask why you wanted to speak with me?
THEM: I wanted to see if I could correct a few things that were said about me in some of your other interviews.
ME: Such as?
THEM: Well, I think I came across sounding like a real devil. Like a monster.
ME: What specifically was said about you that wasn't true?
THEM: I can't really go into specifics about was or wasn't true, because I don't want to--
ME: Then I don't really see the point of this.
THEM: It's more about the tone that was taken.
ME: You didn't like...the tone?
THEM: I felt it was very one-sided. Don't you think?
ME: Well, this is your chance to tell your side provided you can give me counter examples to what was said.
THEM: If--Have I made mistakes? Yes. I'm not a saint. And I get angry--just like everybody else does.
ME: Everybody else doesn't throw chairs.
THEM: As far as the chair goes--
ME: That's just where I wanted to start. We can go other places.
THEM: You've never gotten mad?
ME: I've gotten very mad.
THEM: Have you ever--You know, I've spoken to a few people about you. People where you live.
ME: Oh, have you?
THEM: Yes.
ME: And just what did you learn about me?
THEM: Well, Kevin, I learned that you might not be the best person to be going after other people when it comes to--
ME: Oh, I'm a real a**hole. But I could have told you that. You didn't need to go on a fact-finding mission.
THEM: But you're doing interviews where you--You're saying--Oh, he threw a chair. Oh, he made someone feel bad. He called someone a f***ing idiot.
ME: You did all those things though, correct?
THEM: I've gotten angry. And so have you from what I--
ME: Yes, I--can we stop for a second?
THEM: I--
ME: If you want to make this interview about whatever little bits of information you found out about me so you can have some kinda narrative twist, I'll save you the trouble. I've said horrible things to people. I've made people cry. I've definitely burned people out. I've taken advantage of people. I've manipulated people. I can put together a publicity stunt with the best of them, and I have flat-out lied about everything under the sun.
THEM: You--
ME: Wait wait wait, you wanted to get all my bad stuff down on the record. Let's make sure we do that before--
THEM: You won't write up any of that though.
ME: Won't I? Yes, I will.
THEM: This is--
ME: But this isn't the Kevin Broccoli Roast. You reached out. You wanted to talk. I'm not talking to you right now because I wrote that I'm a saint and I'm out for revenge. I don't know if I've done worse than you, but I've done a lot of pretty bad stuff, which I think makes me even more qualified to talk to you, because I don't think a saint would know how to handle it, whereas I can assure you, I've dealt with people like you before, and I've been someone like you--
THEM: Still?
ME: Still. Yes. Sure. I'm a nightmare. That's why I'm fully equipped to deal with you. They brought in the snake to deal with the rat. That's what I think this is and I'm very happy to be the snake.
THEM: Is all this off the record?
ME: Nothing's off the record.
THEM: Can I ask you one more thing?
ME: Go ahead.
THEM: What's the thing you've lied about the most?
ME: Telling men they're good at something when they're not. Ready to move on?
THEM: Do you want to calm down first?
ME: I'm never calm. Are we ready or should I call you back when you're done trying to gotcha me?
THEM: I'm ready now.
ME: Great. Did you ever throw a chair at someone?
THEM: No.
ME: Did you ever throw a chair?
THEM: I've gotten--
ME: Yes or no.
THEM: I'm not going--
ME: I want a yes or a no or we can end this now. This isn't going in some court document. Your lawyer can relax. You're anonymous. Feel liberated to speak the truth.
THEM: I have thrown things when angry but not at anyone.
ME: Near someone?
THEM: This is not productive.
ME: And you've called people f***ing idiots?
THEM: I've said lots of things I regret.
ME: Why do you regret them?
THEM: What?
ME: Why do you regret calling someone a f***ing idiot?
THEM: Because it was inappropriate and unprofessional.
ME: Was it hurtful do you think?
THEM: I...I'm sure it was.
ME: Do you think it hurt the people you said it to?
THEM: I'm sure I did.
ME: Did you think it was going to hurt them when you said it?
THEM: I probably wasn't thinking. I don't when I'm angry. Do you?
ME: Was the point for it to hurt them?
THEM: Why would that be the point?
ME: So you could break them down?
THEM: Why?
ME: So you could feel more powerful?
THEM: No.
ME: Have you apologized to any of those people since you're acknowledging that you hurt them?
THEM: I have not had the opportunity to do so yet.
ME: When do you plan on creating that opportunity for yourself?
THEM: I'm not sure they would want to hear from me right now.
ME: That's true, but I don't see what that has to do with you apologizing. You can apologize right now if you want to. Do you want to?
THEM: I would.
ME: Okay.
THEM: When I get angry--
ME: No, no. Just try apologizing. Don't qualify. Just apologize.
THEM: You're very combative.
ME: No, I'm just anxious and this is how it's manifesting itself. You telling me you've been secretly talking to people where I live who don't like kinda threw me, but I'll steady sooner or later, don't worry.
THEM: That wasn't--
ME: Do you not want to apologize?
THEM: I apologize if I said things I shouldn't have. How's that?
ME: People are so bad at apologizing these days.
THEM: Are you good at it?
ME: I'm terrible at it, that's why I don't do it very often, but I'm working on it.
THEM: Maybe somebody should do an interview with you.
ME: That's what I pay a therapist for. Do you sit in on season auditions?
THEM: Not anymore. I've been asked to--
ME: Have you sat in on season auditions in the past?
THEM: Where?
ME: At theaters you've worked at.
THEM: I was a director at several theaters so it made sense to--
ME: Were there other directors in the room with you?
THEM: There was the Artistic Director.
ME: And all the other directors?
THEM: It was up to the Artistic Director who was in the room. Not me.
ME: Why do you think you were the only guest director in the room?
THEM: I don't know. You'd have to ask [Name of AD].
ME: So you didn't ask to be in the room?
THEM: I'd always like to be in the room if I can be, but I wouldn't have said 'Make me the only guest director in the room.'
ME: You didn't think it was strange that you were the only one?
THEM: I wasn't always the only one.
ME: But often you were?
THEM: I don't know what you're getting at.
ME: Three different directors who worked at the theaters you worked at where you were allowed to be in the room for season auditions have reached out to me to say that when they asked to be in the room and were told they couldn't be, they were told that you made it a demand that you be in the room and that special accommodations were made for you specifically for reasons nobody knew. And that actors they specifically wanted to work with were not put on their callback list even though they made it clear they would like to work with those people. They were told they were unavailable or that there was some reason they couldn't do the show. The connective tissue between those actors is that you didn't like them. And when the directors finally reached out to those actors, it turned out none of them were unavailable.
THEM: There's a lot of speculation there. And rumors.
ME: Does any of it sound plausible?
THEM: That actors didn't get cast because I didn't like them?
ME: Yes.
THEM: They wouldn't have been cast in my shows if I didn't like them. I'll say that.
ME: But you wouldn't have blocked them from being in someone else's shows?
THEM: The only people who can decide not to cast actors are Artistic Directors and I've never been an Artistic Director so I've never had that power.
ME: But you had influence?
THEM: I'm sure I've had--I've had people listen to me.
ME: Have you ever advised people not to use certain actors just because you didn't like them?
THEM: Well, everybody does that. If I didn't think they were talented--
ME: Do you think your opinion held more weight when you made that kind of suggestion?
THEM: It might have. I don't know.
ME: But you would know if it did if you didn't see that person get cast after you suggested they not be, right?
THEM: It's not a crime to give someone advice.
ME: But do you feel good knowing that you prevented people from working just because you personally didn't like them?
THEM: If I didn't think they were talented. If I didn't think they could act.
ME: But if you--
THEM: That's how everybody gets work or doesn't get work. People have to like you. Do I have to explain to you how the world works, Mr. Broccoli? Mr. Writer who's supposed to understand people?
ME: Did someone once not get cast at a theater you were working at because you found out they didn't like a show you directed?
THEM: I don't remember something like that happening.
ME: Would you try to stop someone from working at a theater if they didn't like a show you directed?
THEM: I'm sure I'd get over it eventually.
ME: Eventually?
THEM: Eventually.
ME: But you'd hold a grudge?
THEM: Again, I'm human.
ME: Let's not go overboard. What did you think when you read the interviews and you heard how your actions have affected people?
THEM: People can be sensitive. Theater is--Theater is not a sensitive art form. It takes a lot out of you to do theater. It took a lot out of me. That might have lead to me doing things--saying things--that I'm not proud of. But when I started out, [Man's Name] did, uh--do you know who he is?
ME: No.
THEM: He was the, uh, let's say titan of where I'm from. Of [Name of City]. Remarkable man. Great artist. Wonderful director. And, uh, we--today we would call him--I think it's fair to say--a predator. He was--he did a lot of really bad things to a lot of, uh--
ME: To you?
THEM: To me. Yes. To a lot of people. Annnnnnnd there's a statue of him in front of the theater that I work at. That I used to work at.
ME: I'm not sure what your point is?
THEM: That I don't know--I don't know why all of a sudden everything's become about--Why I'm being targeted and as I was walking out of that theater the day I was brought in to speak to the board about, uh, your interview--I walked by that statue of that man who did a lot worse than I ever did to me and to my colleagues and, uh, and they walked me right by it. And it was like he was mocking me. Because nobody's doing interviews about him.
ME: If you're asking if I'll start a campaign to tear down that statue, then--Sure. Sign me up. But if you want sympathy because the music stopped and you weren't sitting in a chair, I can't really help you with that.
THEM: But when did it become unacceptable to demand excellence from people?
ME: Is that what you think he was doing when he was being a predator?
THEM: No, I'm saying I never did what he did, but now I have people calling me a predator. All i did was my job. I had to give people results. If the show wasn't finished or if it wasn't good, nobody was going to care how nice I made everybody feel. We had a director like that in town for awhile--we've had a few directors like that--and none of them work for very long, because they can't deliver.
ME: So the only way to deliver is your way?
THEM: It's the only way I know how to do it.
ME: But if you thought there were other ways, why didn't you try them?
THEM: I--
ME: When did everybody agree that screaming obscenities at people was the only way to achieve excellence?
THEM: I didn't hear anybody complaining--anybody at any of these theaters--when I was making them money. When I was selling out shows. Getting awards. Getting all those--
ME: If you didn't hear complaints, then maybe you weren't listening to the right people. Did you ever put your hands on someone?
(The lawyer interjects asking that we not talk about that incident. A short conversation happens. Then--)
ME: Okay. Would you...agree that putting your hands on someone qualifies as assault?
(The lawyer interjects.)
ME: I'm having second thoughts about letting your lawyer on the line.
THEM: I just want to say that I've never assaulted anyone in my life.
ME: I--Okay, well, we can't talk about it, according to your attorney, but I want to say that I have documentation that says otherwise, and we'll leave it at that. There are investigations into your conduct, aren't there?
THEM: Not that I'm aware of.
ME: Consider me making you aware of them.
THEM: I offered to stop working with those theaters, and as far as I know, that was the end of any investigations.
ME: Well, I will certainly be looking into that.
THEM: Please do.
ME: Because I haven't named any of those theaters, but I'd be happy to change that if they've made such a poor decision.
THEM: What good do you think investigations will do? I'm done. I'm not planning on--I know when to walk away.
ME: It's not about you. It's about the people affected by you. And maybe the theaters doing these investigations will figure out how to prevent someone like you from working there again.
THEM: There are still people working there who are--I think you can guess why they didn't want to push this issue very far. I wouldn't be the only person security had to show out.
ME: So you're saying it's a culture of bad behavior?
THEM: It's--It's the way we do things. I don't think it's fair to ask the people who run these places to change the way they do things. Maybe everybody else just needs to toughen up a little.
ME: You're using these very non-threatening terms, but when you say 'the way they do things,' and you're talking about the way you did things, what you're talking about is berating people, throwing temper tantrums, and intimidating them.
THEM: That's your perspective on it as someone who is not here and who does not--
ME: No, that's the perspective of over thirty people in my inbox right now who all say they were subject to abuse from you.
THEM: Many of whom probably worked with me more than once after they were allegedly abused.
ME: Just because they didn't beat the s*** out of you the first time you did it doesn't mean they weren't abused.
THEM: Was I married to any of them? Were there legal--
ME: Many of them are actors who say you had a controlling influence over many of the theaters in [Name of City] where they could get work. What were they supposed to do? I'm sure you were aware of the position they were in, and I'm sure that's why you behaved that way.
THEM: Because I'm such a svengali.
ME: I wouldn't give you that much credit. More like a warden.
THEM: I did a lot of good for a lot of people over the years. Did any of them tell you about that?
ME: And Phil Spector used to help people get hit records. What's your point?
THEM: A few lapses in judgment--
ME: These were not isolated incidents. You were--I have pages and pages of conversations--had with you--about systematically destroying any chance some of these people might have had at making a living in [Name of City].
THEM: And where did you get these?
ME: Well, I don't know the in's and out's of all your relationships, but some of them seem to be from people who were pretty good friends with you.
THEM: I don't think they were friends if they're speaking with you.
ME: Okay, well, you know that tweet you posted thanking all the people who've been standing by you during this 'difficult time?'
THEM: Yes.
ME: Every single one of them minus one person reached out to me.
THEM: I don't believe that.
ME: Oh, believe it.
THEM: You've already admitted to lying--
ME: Right, okay, so don't believe it. Maybe I'm lying. But think about what it would mean if I'm--
THEM: Why would they reach out to you?
ME: Because they secretly can't stand you and you're not useful to them anymore. That's my guess.
THEM: I think this is just something you're using to provoke me.
ME: Do you have a New Year's Eve party every year?
THEM: I do.
ME: And only your inner circle is invited, right?
THEM: That's incorrect. I invite a lot of people.
ME: Was there a year when only your inner circle was present?
THEM: There are different people there every year.
ME: Okay. Was there a year where you had everybody go around and impersonate who their least favorite actor in [Name of City] is? It was some sort of mean version of charades?
THEM: I don't remember doing that.
ME: Do you know there's a video of it?
THEM: Of me doing that? I wouldn't do something like that.
ME: Of other people doing it at your house. But you were in the same room. You were the one orchestrating--
THEM: What people might do at a party when they've been drinking--
ME: So you'd let them take the fall for it?
THEM: I can't take responsibility for something I haven't done.
ME: Are you under the impression that I don't have ways to back up everything I'm going to mention to you?
THEM: I'm sure you have a lot of information from people who enjoy seeing me in a vulnerable state.
ME: And why would people feel that way?
THEM: Because I did something with my life and they haven't.
ME: All right.
THEM: Much like you with these interviews.
ME: You think--
THEM: I think you're doing these interviews as a way to get attention for yourself since it doesn't seem like you have much else going for you.
ME: You're right. It's pretty much these interviews, dogs doing Shakespeare, and angry Oscar nominees. Can't say I've done much else.
THEM: I think it's very sad. I think it's unfortunate that you've chosen to use your platform to hurt innocent people.
ME: You think you're innocent?
THEM: I think I've been unfairly targeted.
ME: By me?
THEM: By you and people who want to see me brought down.
ME: I didn't even know who you were until I was connected with [Name].
THEM: I think that makes it worse. You're going after strangers. Why don't you try going after the people where you live.
ME: Oh, don't worry. That's the plan.
THEM: You're going to keep terrorizing people?
ME: No, just one person. I already have the interview ready. I'm just waiting until his birthday to post it.
THEM: You're a really--
ME: I have a question from someone you got blacklisted that sort of relates to what we're talking about.
THEM: I haven't--
ME: Can I ask the question?
THEM: If you want to.
ME: They want to know what it's going to feel like in five years when nobody knows who you are?
THEM: I don't really know how to answer that.
ME: Do you want to be remembered?
THEM: I--I don't think very much about it.
ME: Do you think you should be given another chance?
THEM: I don't think I deserve to be in this position at all so--
ME: Would you ever let someone else direct you?
THEM: I've been directed by other people.
ME: Not in a long time.
THEM: I had a hard time finding someone to direct me who I thought...Who got the most out of me as an actor.
ME: So you're too talented to be directed?
THEM: I never found someone I connected with in that way.
ME: Would you ever let yourself be in a position where you didn't have any power?
THEM: Aren't I there now?
ME: And how does that feel?
THEM: I...I feel, uh--It's a very low point for me. My lowest point. I've had--people have turned their backs on me. I've--It's been very difficult.
ME: Will you concede that--that it's possible that this--how you feel right now--is how you've made others feel at some point?
(Silence.)
THEM: I...I probably have. Yes.
ME: So how does knowing that feel in relation to how you yourself are feeling?
(Silence.)
THEM: I feel badly about that.
ME: Is that something you'd ask forgiveness for?
THEM: From--Uh...Yes. Yes, I would.
ME: Do you think there's any...benefit to you--at this moment--staying powerless for awhile?
(Short pause.)
THEM: There might be.
ME: Permanently, maybe?
THEM: I don't know.
ME: Do you think you're entitled to power?
THEM: No.
ME: Do you think anyone should be entitled to power?
THEM: That's--I felt I was a leader. And we--you have to have a leader.
ME: Do you think it would be the worst thing in the world if you weren't in that position again? To be a leader?
THEM: It's who I am so I--
ME: But shouldn't the people you were leading feel that you were good at it?
THEM: I--I thought they did feel that way. I--I did a lot of things for a lot of people that I can't talk about here, but that were--There were a lot of people who...got a lot out of me being in the position I was in.
ME: And is it fair to say that other people didn't get anything out of it--for whatever reason--maybe you didn't like them, or whatever--but is it fair to say that? That some people were negatively impacted by you being a leader?
THEM: Yes, well--that would be the case for anyone. You're better off if the person in charge--if you're on their good side.
ME: So the people who weren't on your good side did not benefit from you being in a position of authority? Is that fair to say?
THEM: Yes.
ME: So do you think it would be fair--to look at those people, who didn't benefit or were negatively impacted--and maybe future people who might have come along--who might not have benefited--and say, 'You know what? Maybe it's their turn. Maybe they should have somebody on their side in the leadership role.' Do you think that would be...the right thing?
(Silence.)
THEM: I think that's a...That's fair.
ME: Do you want to apologize to those people considering that--that you're willing to say, 'Maybe I treated you badly for reasons that were personal to me and you didn't deserve that?' Would you do that? Would you give that apology? Sincerely?
(A short pause.)
THEM: I would.
ME: You sound quieter now.
THEM: I'm...
ME: Because I just want to say--and this isn't me letting you off the hook at all, but just trying to figure out where your hang-up is here, and--you don't have to be a bad person to hurt people. And you don't--Depending on your way of looking at things, or anybody's way of looking at things, maybe there aren't any bad people. I don't know you. I don't know what kind of person you are. But if the hang-up here is, I can't bear to think of myself as a bad person. Then maybe--Don't try to unpack that. Just say, I did some bad things and I need to own that and deal with your bulls*** later. Because right now, people just want you to own something. They feel crazy. They feel gaslit. They've been made to feel ostracized and, uh, less than--as human beings. And they want someone to take responsibility for that. And I'm not saying they're going to forgive you, and they might never forgive you, and that's their choice, but you actually have the chance to do something for them, which is to say--You're not crazy. People were keeping you locked out. People were minimizing you behind your back. People were distancing you from opportunities. And if you do that--That's something at least. That's the reason I said I would talk to you, and that's what every person you know who's talked to me has--in one form or another--said they wanted. They just don't want to feel like it was their fault anymore. They don't want to think they're not talented. They don't want to think that really it was all about them being worthless and that you're actually--that you're the saint and they're the ones in the wrong. That's all they want. Really. Can you give them that?
THEM: But then it's 'It wasn't you, it was me' which is so--
ME: Yeah, that's infuriating to hear, so don't say that. That's really minimizing it. I'm talking about owning the whole--the whole cope of it.
THEM: I--I do own it.
(The lawyer starts to interject.)
ME: I'd like you to not talk now. Thank you. Appreciated but thank you.
THEM: It's okay.
ME: I'm asking if can you take responsibility?
THEM: I can. I--Yes, I can.
ME: And what do you want to say in regards to that?
THEM: That I'm sorry for hurting anyone that I've hurt and for...maliciously, uh, for conducting myself with malicious intent all these years towards...people that didn't deserve it. And I am sorry for that. I do regret it and I'm sorry. Nobody was crazy. It was--It was how you said it was. That's all I can.
ME: Okay. Then I think we're done.
THEM: Thank you.
That was the end of the Interview.
Breathtaking.
ReplyDeleteIt seems unlikely, given the context, but I so hope that was Wolf was sincere .