Theater and Kool-Aid Culture: Part Two

Last week, I spoke with someone who had been dismissed from their position at a theater because of comments made in an interview regarding their opinions on that theater's season.

If you haven't read that interview, give it a look by clicking on this link:

http://thiscantbebroccoli.blogspot.com/2019/09/on-theater-and-kool-aid-culture.html

Almost immediately after the interview was posted, I was contacted by the Artistic Director of the theater asking if he could speak with me about what happened.

This is the interview:

ME:  Thank you for reaching out to me.

THEM:  My pleasure.

ME:  Did somebody send you the interview?

THEM:  Believe it or not, I read all your interviews.

ME:  Wow, they've reached [Location]?

THEM:  Oh yeah.  I was wondering when you would get around to this.

ME:  To the incident with [Person Who Was Fired]?

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  Were you worried about it?

THEM:  (Laughs.)  Very.

ME:  Why?

THEM:  Well.  I don't want to be, uh, the next Wolf, you know?

ME:  Oh, everybody's got a little Wolf in them.  I'm a Wolf myself some of the time.

THEM:  You throw chairs?

ME:  I don't throw chairs, no, but I'm a raging con artist.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  You just say that so casually.

ME:  Well, I'm always accused of doing this or doing that and I find the best approach is just to say, 'Yeah sure, okay, that's me.  Happy now?'

THEM:  That's--I wish I could do that.

ME:  Don't you feel like everybody who makes a living in the arts has some of the--

THEM:  Of the con artist in them?  Yes, completely.  It's marketing.  So much of it is marketing.

ME:  So you run--You're the Artistic Director of the theater where all this happened.

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  And so--did you reach out to me because you wanted to--

THEM:  I wanted to just--give some more insight into what happened.  I'm not going to say that what [they] said was a lie.  None of it was a lie.

ME:  There were a lot of comments on this particular article--

THEM:  I saw.

ME:  --And a lot of people agreed with you.

THEM:  Well, when you say 'agreed with me' that's--I was not in agreement with, uh, the decision to terminate [them].

ME:  You weren't?

THEM:  I--I accepted the decision.  But I didn't--especially after reading your interview--I felt very...I felt very conflicted about it.  I always had.  This was not an easy decision.

ME:  Are you going to get in trouble for saying that?

THEM:  Uhhhhh I might?  But...I have to say that--when I saw some of the comments--what was said was--what [they] said--was very innocuous.  It was just--It was just saying 'I'm not a fan of these plays.'

ME:  And you think that was okay?

THEM:  Yes.  I think--I think, in general, having opinions is great.  I think people should have opinions and I think it's great if their opinions don't always line up with the opinions of, uh, the people at the top?

ME:  So who disagreed with that?

THEM:  The board.

ME:  Just the board?

THEM:  Uh, a few of the staff members at the theater.  My Executive Director.

ME:  Your Executive Director disagreed?

THEM:  Yes.  My marketing department wasn't too excited about it either.

ME:  I can understand that.

THEM:  But I agree with something you said--These are titles.  They're not productions--not yet.  It's fine to say 'Oh, those titles don't excite me.'  Not all the titles excite me.

ME:  You're saying some of the shows in your season don't excite you?

THEM:  That's right.

ME:  That is the most honest thing anybody has ever said in one of these interviews.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  Is that right?

ME:  I mean, because--nobody will ever admit to that.

THEM:  Choosing a season is--there are a lot of factors, right?  You choose your season.

ME:  Yes.

THEM:  Do you love all the shows in your season?

ME:  Uh, I don't love them all as much as I love some of the shows we couldn't get the rights to.

THEM:  That's--We don't really have that problem, because we're--

ME:  You have a bigger theater than mine.

THEM:  And we're in a region where competition is--So we do get first pick, but, uh--you know, there are considerations for why we do some of the shows that we do that aren't all about me loving them.  I like--Well.

ME:  Are there ones you don't even--

THEM:  That's what I'm struggling with, I guess.

ME:  Wow.

THEM:  I believe that our audience will--That this is the best season for us.  For the theater.  I believe that.

ME:  Were there titles chosen for financial reasons?

THEM:  Yes.  And any Artistic Director who tells you they're doing Shakespeare for the sixth time in seven years because they just love it so much is full of s***.  There are, uh, you know, considerations.  There are reasons we do this stuff that have nothing to do with--I love Mud, but the day I'm allowed to do that show--

ME:  That's a great play.

THEM:  But it's not great for our theater, and I accept that.

ME:  But that must be frustrating.  To run an organization and feel like you can't--

THEM:  That's life though.  That's--you make concessions.  Nobody gets everything they want.  Maybe one day I can do Mud somewhere else as a visiting artist or something, but I'm not entitled to do anything just because I'm the Artistic Director.

ME:  See, I kind of think you are, provided you can make a good case for it.

THEM:  I--I've tried to--I think I have made a good case for it, but it never worked out.

ME:  Do you think there's anything wrong with you talking to me and saying--forgive me, but--worse than what the person you fired said, and you're still running the theater?

THEM:  I do see the unfairness in that, yes.  I never thought it was fair.  I was outvoted.

ME:  Can I, um--So I have never run a theater your size.  I've very rarely worked in a theater that size, but--it seems to me like--You should be able to tell those other people to f*** off and hire [them] back.

THEM:  That's not how it works.

ME:  I get that, but also--Are you sure?  Like, what would happen if you just said, 'I am the ranking creative officer of this company and I am hiring this person back and then we need to talk about the culture in this company that prevents people from voicing their opinions?'

THEM:  I think they'd be looking for a new Artistic Director the next day.

ME:  So we're giving all the power to boards now?  To Executive Directors?

THEM:  I don't think that's new.

ME:  But you chose the season.  If [Name of Person] didn't like the season, and you're saying, 'I don't really like it either, but we're doing it this way because we need to make money or--'

THEM:  It's not all about money.  Some of it is casting.  Some of it is, uh--programming we put in place for grants.  A commission.

ME:  And somebody said, 'It's not something I'm excited about right now.'  Question--and maybe this is crossing a line, but--Have you talked to the people who work at your theater?  Are ANY of them excited about it?

THEM:  I know many of them aren't, and, uh, I wonder if that's why the board reacted the way they did when the interview came out with [Name].

ME:  To quash any dissent before it started?

THEM:  Yes.

ME:  So it really is 'Drink the Kool-Aid, Shelby?'

THEM:  (Laughs.)  It's a tough business.  I'll say that.

ME:  You ever think about quitting?

THEM:  All the time.

ME:  Really?

THEM:  All the time.

ME:  You are going to get in so much trouble for this.

THEM:  I've been in my job for a long time.  I think I'm--I'm not entitled to have a vanity season, but I am entitled to speak my mind.

ME:  Will you offer [Name] their job back?  It feels like that's the direction you're going in.

THEM:  I really can't do that.

ME:  Do you miss them.  They said you two were very close.

THEM:  Very close.  And yes, I do.  I feel--I haven't slept since all this happened.  It's, uh, it just doesn't feel right to me.  I know how the people who read your article feel, but they're not here.  They're not experiencing what it's done to this community.  To my staff.  To the people who feel like now they need to watch what they say.  This is not--To the gentleman on your--on your post talking as though--Well, this would be the same in this business or that business.  Well, I didn't go into all those businesses.  I went into theater.  I went into the arts.  I didn't go into corporate.  I could have made more money that way.  It didn't appeal to me.  For reasons like this.  Because you have to observe and, uh, honor the company line.  That was never for me.

ME:  Is something like this pushing you further into that feeling of 'I don't want to do this?'

THEM:  I should say I want to keep doing theater, but RUNNING a theater--

ME:  It will drive you insane.

THEM:  It--It is so hard, Kevin.

ME:  I mean, we're not brain surgeons, but--

THEM:  You talk about it though--

ME:  It has absolutely made me a worse human being than I was before.  It's brought amazing, wonderful people into my life and I'm grateful for that, but it has broken me in ways I'm not sure I can ever fix.  Or it's just revealed me and I've just been an a**hole all along.  That's probably closer to the truth.

THEM:  That's how I feel--Well, a little of both.  What it asks of you is...

(Silence.)

ME:  Nobody gets out alive.

THEM:  It's that scene in Road to Perdition.

ME:  I know exactly what you're going to say.

THEM:  When Paul Newman says to Tom Hanks, 'Not a one of us is ever going to see Heaven.'

ME:  There's just so much compromise that has to happen except nobody walks away feeling like they got what they wanted.

THEM:  There are little victories.  I've had some.  I just--uh...

ME:  You seem very emotional.

THEM:  The person you spoke to is one of my best friends.  She is...She's one of the best human beings I've ever met in my life.  If she--If this is how her journey in this business ends or--not ends, but--if this is what we did to somebody like that?  I don't know that we don't need to just smash the whole thing and start over.  I really don't.

ME:  So are you prepared to smash it and start over?

THEM:  I don't think I'm that brave, Kevin.

ME:  None of us are brave.  But the question is--are we stupid?

THEM:  (Laughs.)  Stupid I can get behind.

ME:  It's not a bad place to start.

Them is an Artistic Director and has been for many years.