My interview this week is indirectly related to last week's interview, so if you haven't read that one, click here--
ME: It's the continued story of the gatekeepers.
When the interview came out, I was contacted by someone who left a position at a respected regional theater a year ago, and has been debating whether or not to speak about their experience at that theater ever since.
Due to the nature of this interview, I felt it was important to hear the theater's side of things. After speaking with the person being interviewed about it, I contacted the theater and asked if they'd like to speak with me about some of the allegations in this interview.
Not only did they not want to have me speak with a representative, but they have since threatened legal action if I published this interview.
I wish them luck with any legal endeavors they decide to pursue.
Here's the interview:
ME: I don't want to get into too many details, because this is one where I feel like it really wouldn't be difficult to tell which theater we're talking about.
THEM: I'm off and on about it. I do want to stay anonymous, but the more time passes, the more I just feel like people need to...need to know about this. About what's going on there.
ME: Do you think it's isolated or is this indicative of other how theaters operate as well?
THEM: I'm sure some of it is isolated, but I've--I know that most of this is happening all over the country.
THEM: I'm sure some of it is isolated, but I've--I know that most of this is happening all over the country.
ME: It's the continued story of the gatekeepers.
THEM: You've uncovered, I think, a really big problem.
ME: How long were you working at this theater?
THEM: Seven years.
THEM: Seven years.
ME: Long time.
THEM: Long, but not--I feel like not so long in terms of how long people used to stay at places like that. One of the staff members had been there since the theater opened, which was _____ years ago.
ME: What made you want to leave?
THEM: There was a list.
THEM: There was a list.
ME: A list?
THEM: There was--Here we go.
THEM: There was--Here we go.
ME: (Laughs.) Here we go.
THEM: There was a list passed around of actors in the community--and I think, I think one director--that everyone at our theater should be made aware of.
ME: Very Nixonian.
THEM: Yes.
ME: Everything old is new again.
THEM: (Laughs.) It certainly is.
ME: How did people get on this list?
THEM: They had been critical of the theater. Um--they had said things on social media that were critical of the theater. One of them had--according to, who knows, but--they had said something at a party and it had gotten back to the staff--or someone on the staff, and so they were put on the list.
THEM: They had been critical of the theater. Um--they had said things on social media that were critical of the theater. One of them had--according to, who knows, but--they had said something at a party and it had gotten back to the staff--or someone on the staff, and so they were put on the list.
ME: And what did being on this list mean?
THEM: Well, um, it would mean that you weren't going to be working with us. Beyond that, the list--the list was shared with some of our, um, sister theaters--they were told about that they should be--that it was important they know about these people and really, um, consider working with them. In the future.
THEM: Well, um, it would mean that you weren't going to be working with us. Beyond that, the list--the list was shared with some of our, um, sister theaters--they were told about that they should be--that it was important they know about these people and really, um, consider working with them. In the future.
ME: How did that not explode?
THEM: Because secrecy is--it's become a crucial part of the--it's in the fabric on the environment. For a lot of these places. Things do get out, but there was this fear--it's a culture of fear--that by talking about it, you would wind up on it. The list.
ME: Did the people on the list know they were on the list?
THEM: No. Not that I know of.
ME: Was this an actual e-mail or--
THEM: No, it was all on paper. They were smart enough not to, uh, digitize it, because that would make it easy to pass around. We, um, we got the piece of paper in a meeting I was in, and I know it was shown to other employees in other meetings, and we were just told to look at it, make a mental note of the names--
ME: Did they let you copy it or--
THEM: No, no.
ME: Okay.
THEM: Um, and if we had any questions we could refer them to the Assistant to the Executive Director.
ME: Because you were a department head, so questions might come to you first?
THEM: Yes.
THEM: Yes.
ME: Was the Executive Director the person who made the list?
THEM: It was--From what I understand, because I did have some questions, um--
THEM: It was--From what I understand, because I did have some questions, um--
ME: (Laughs.) I would have a lot of questions.
THEM: Yes. Um. From what I understand--the compiling of the list was a...It was a joint effort between, um, the Artistic Director, the Executive Director, the GM, and several other staff members whose names I was not given.
ME: But they didn't open it up and say 'Oh, if you have some names you want to add--'
THEM: I might have been able to, honestly, I just--I was really disgusted with the whole thing.
ME: Did you know people on the list?
THEM: I was friends with a few of them. More than a few.
THEM: I was friends with a few of them. More than a few.
ME: Did the people at the theater know that?
THEM: That I was friends with some of the people on it?
ME: Yes.
THEM: That I was friends with some of the people on it?
ME: Yes.
THEM: I think they must have known.
ME: So how did they think you would react?
THEM: I don't know. I don't know if they cared. They were not--My relationships with some of the people that then became persona non grata were created because I made it a point to work with and, um, hopefully be an advocate for the community-at-large. When I was first hired, I had my own company, and--there were a variety of reasons for this, but--I shuttered the company. I closed it. Um, things were--not great. Just financially. Other than that it was still very much a labor of love. But I got offered this position--at this bigger theater--and I had a discussion with my board, and we all felt that the time was right for me to close my theater, and move on to this next chapter, and, um, it was this big sacrifice that we all--me and the board--felt we were making because it would be so--it was going to be such a great thing to have someone like me on the inside of this--this theater that really was the linchpin of our artistic community. It was felt that--that I--in the position I was going to be given--could bring about some real change.
THEM: I don't know. I don't know if they cared. They were not--My relationships with some of the people that then became persona non grata were created because I made it a point to work with and, um, hopefully be an advocate for the community-at-large. When I was first hired, I had my own company, and--there were a variety of reasons for this, but--I shuttered the company. I closed it. Um, things were--not great. Just financially. Other than that it was still very much a labor of love. But I got offered this position--at this bigger theater--and I had a discussion with my board, and we all felt that the time was right for me to close my theater, and move on to this next chapter, and, um, it was this big sacrifice that we all--me and the board--felt we were making because it would be so--it was going to be such a great thing to have someone like me on the inside of this--this theater that really was the linchpin of our artistic community. It was felt that--that I--in the position I was going to be given--could bring about some real change.
ME: In what way?
THEM: The theater was--at that time--very insular. Very cut-off from what was going on around it. And what was going on around it was--you had this burgeoning arts scene. You had a lot of mixed media happening. You had all these dance companies forming--doing some really exciting stuff. Lots of smaller experimental theater happening. Just a real--a really exciting time to be doing theater where I'm from. And the feeling was that--they--the theater I wound up working at--was not engaging with any of what was going on outside its walls.
THEM: The theater was--at that time--very insular. Very cut-off from what was going on around it. And what was going on around it was--you had this burgeoning arts scene. You had a lot of mixed media happening. You had all these dance companies forming--doing some really exciting stuff. Lots of smaller experimental theater happening. Just a real--a really exciting time to be doing theater where I'm from. And the feeling was that--they--the theater I wound up working at--was not engaging with any of what was going on outside its walls.
ME: Why?
THEM: Well, once I got inside those walls--(Laughs)--I found that there was a real fear about--about acknowledging outside artists and, um, artists from the community.
THEM: Well, once I got inside those walls--(Laughs)--I found that there was a real fear about--about acknowledging outside artists and, um, artists from the community.
ME: I don't understand.
THEM: I didn't either. It took me--it took a long time to figure out, because--I equate it to my experience dealing with racism growing up, because where I grew up, racism was not something that--I experienced it in blunt fashion, but more often than not, I experienced it, um, in roundabout ways. Not overtly. Dealing with people who didn't think they were racists, so you listened to what they said and how they felt, and then you had to hold that against their actions. I felt like I was dealing with that again when I would ask the people I worked with at the theater what their values were regarding lifting up the other people in the community, diversifying the staff and the audience, telling stories about different economic classes, all of that.
ME: You would ask them about these things and they would say--
THEM: Yes, yes, we love all that. We love all that. We're all for it. Here, let's do a private reading of a play about the middle class on a Saturday morning at 10am and only invite the actors who already work with us to read it and then they'll talk about it amongst themselves, and then we'll never hear about it again. I mean, come on. I was asking for visible change. That's what I was taught--how I was mentored. To demand real change you can see. Because when you start to say to people, 'Well, instead of a private workshop, why don't we just go ahead and put that show on the mainstage?' then you see some true colors coming out.
ME: I'm surprised you weren't on the list.
THEM: (Laughs.) I would have been on the list had I still been in the community at that point. Other people who ran other theaters in the area were on the list. And their theaters were as well.
ME: So people were told not to go work with these theaters?
THEM: Yes. Not overtly. But yes.
THEM: Yes. Not overtly. But yes.
ME: I'm curious about the conversations you had once you saw this list.
THEM: I was told that this was done in an effort to identify allies within the community.
ME: Were you at war at the time?
THEM: I guess we were. Nobody told me, but I guess we were. I said, 'I would love a list of perceived allies, but that is not what this is.' That's when I started getting the 'Look at this angry woman being angry' reactions.
THEM: I guess we were. Nobody told me, but I guess we were. I said, 'I would love a list of perceived allies, but that is not what this is.' That's when I started getting the 'Look at this angry woman being angry' reactions.
ME: I just can't imagine how someone could justify putting something like that together?
THEM: The theater--this is my opinion--the theater reached a place where they either had to evolve or they had to--there's a saying about this. About heroes and villains.
ME: Die a hero or live long enough to--
THEM: Yes. They had decided that dying a hero wasn't an option, which I understand. They also didn't want to change. And that left Door Number Three--which was closing ranks. It was scaring people from wanting to branch out and work other places. It was, um, ignoring a lot of other exciting achievements that were going on all over the city. There's a young woman by the name of ______ who I consider to be a, um, someone I mentor, and she does a lot of exciting work merging theater with film, and her focus happens to be on colonialism, and we were doing a show at the theater that had colonialism as its subject, and I recommended her to direct it. They nodded at me. What a great idea. When I followed up on it, I was told that she was thought to be too inexperienced. I didn't fight the decision, because I thought--She is young. They're not wrong. Then they hired someone two years younger than her with even less experience.
ME: Why would they do that?
THEM: Well, the person they hired was from Europe. Our Artistic Director is just, um, oh he loves hiring from Europe. Can't get enough of Europe. Sometimes I felt like I was working at the United Nations. He finds it very exciting to bring in international artists. I also found that exciting, but I also know that there are artists in our community who couldn't pay their rent. I also know that the theater I was working at couldn't afford raises for people on staff who had been working there for years, but we spent a lot of money--a LOT of money--on flying these artists over from Greece, from Italy, from London--housing them, feeding them--we were not--we were a sizable theater, but this was--to me--it was excessive considering what we could have been doing with that money to further growth in our own community. Then, to add insult to injury, we were doing these public forums with these international artists and inviting artists from the community in with the implication that You can learn from these people and you certainly can learn from people--from anybody--but the truth is, um, some of these artists were not as talented--in my opinion--as the artists we had right here at home. Some of them were simply more exotic.
ME: Not to change the subject, but was the young woman you mentioned--the one you mentor--was she on the list?
THEM: She and her company were on the list.
ME: So there was no major event that inspired the creation of this list?
THEM: Well, it's funny you should say that, because as time's gone on, and I've had some room to think about it--the list was shown to us about a week after there was a profile done in one of the local magazines about the young theater scene. As a result of that article, one of the theaters, and its Artistic Director, were asked to bring a play that they had done across the country to a very prestigious venue, and that was--it should have been a moment of pride for the entire community. I can't get into, um, like you said--the details--but it was just so wonderful.
ME: And you think that inspired this cracking down on--
THEM: Because we hadn't sanctioned it, you see. We had not--we had not--this theater was not one of our sister theaters. Those artists were not our artists. For something to take off in that way--to all of a sudden gain some momentum--and we have no part of it, it makes us--I did have some conversations about this, and from what I could tell, it was a two-fold problem. One--we were thought to be the preeminent theater in our area and maybe now that would be under siege if this other theater started gaining prominence, and two, why hadn't we worked with them? Why hadn't we recognized that they were a group we should have been involving ourselves with? It makes us look like we have bad judgment. That's how it was taken.
ME: And so the response was shut them down?
THEM: The response was pretend they're not there. Our audience at the theater was as cut-off as we were. Many of them--These aren't people who read the trades. These aren't people who read American Theater magazine. If we don't tell them about another theater, then that theater simply doesn't exist. Or that actor doesn't exist. Or that choreographer. That's how it was.
ME: But--and I've seen this before, so I sort of already know the answer to this, but--if that person or that group starts gaining national attention--
THEM: It doesn't matter. Before the interview we were talking about the village. How every regional theater operates as the village theater. You can't control the world, that's true. But you can control the village, and it's shocking to see how many people have no interest in what's going on outside the village unless it confirms something they already know to be true or want to believe.
ME: As they're bringing in artists from Italy and France?
THEM: It's to create the idea that Yes, we are worldly. Yes, we are critical thinkers. Yes, we care about the global community. But meanwhile, there is poverty where we are. And within--see, this is what would bother me. There was a lot of affection and care for the audience. For the non-creative community. But when you talked about artists, it was--people got nervous. Because the only way to give those people a voice and involve them in what you're doing is to let them in the door, and I would say, ninety percent of the people I worked with, at the highest levels of the organization, made it their life's mission not to let anybody in the door.
ME: Why?
THEM: Um, well, a lot of them weren't that special. (Laughs.) When you're not special, you hold onto what you have by using exclusion, using cliques, using, um, whatever you can. You don't usually just--work on yourself, which would be the hardest but the most, um, the most ethical thing to do.
ME: How did you last there seven years?
THEM: I think they were just afraid to fire me. I never really gave them cause to. They had asked me to come in. They wanted someone like me on staff.
ME: Forgive me for asking this, but--do you think it was for the optics?
THEM: A hundred percent, yes. I--I have been really damaged by the thought that I was used in that way. Even once I realized I was being used, I had given up so much to be there, I thought I could help re-calibrate the direction of the theater. With the help of some other people there as well. There were others on the same page as me. Not enough of us though.
ME: The group that was asked to take their show to that bigger venue--was that the group that your theater talked to the newspaper about?
THEM: You're asking leading questions.
ME: I wasn't sure how to--
THEM: (Laughs.) It's okay, I would have been mad if I forgot to talk about that. When that all happened, but before the list came out--I found out about this after I left, but I do have proof that it happened--um, the theater contacted the local newspaper--we have one big one and three smaller ones--I don't know if they contacted the three smaller ones, but I know they got wind of the main newspaper writing a story about the group, and they killed it.
ME: What do you mean killed it?
THEM: They threatened to pull advertising. We were a major advertiser.
ME: On what grounds?
THEM: They said that if a group that didn't advertise was going to get that kind of press, then why would we bother advertising? So it was that argument.
ME: But that's like acknowledging pay-to-play and then complaining that pay-to-play isn't working in your favor.
THEM: That's essentially what happened.
ME: Was the fear that a feature in the paper would make your audience--
THEM: Yes. It was to kill awareness more than anything. Stop them before they leave the village. Block the roads. That's what it was.
ME: What were you thinking when you found that out?
THEM: I was thinking I wanted to tell as many people as possible.
ME: Did you?
THEM: I did, and it just--I even let the group know about it. They were scared to come out and say something, because they didn't want to become the target--I mean, they already were--but they didn't want to draw any more attacks from a theater that is seemingly indestructible.
ME: But you had proof.
THEM: I did, and everyone felt that it was better to just drop it. Even though, to me, it indicated that they had probably done things like that before, and it was very unsettling to me.
ME: There was a concerted effort to drown an entire smaller community then?
THEM: I believe so, yes.
ME: That's...scary.
THEM: It is scary.
ME: Hopefully if we can get this interview to the right people, maybe we can make some change happen.
THEM: I just want to warn you, Kevin, that--do you want to include this in the interview?
ME: What you're about to say? The warning?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Yeah, I do. (Laughs.) It's very dramatic.
THEM: (Laughs.) I just want to warn you--really though--they're going to come after you. They do not like being criticized.
ME: Am I going to be put on a list?
THEM: You might be.
ME: Wouldn't be the first time.
Them is currently a freelance artist and grant writer.
ME: Why would they do that?
THEM: Well, the person they hired was from Europe. Our Artistic Director is just, um, oh he loves hiring from Europe. Can't get enough of Europe. Sometimes I felt like I was working at the United Nations. He finds it very exciting to bring in international artists. I also found that exciting, but I also know that there are artists in our community who couldn't pay their rent. I also know that the theater I was working at couldn't afford raises for people on staff who had been working there for years, but we spent a lot of money--a LOT of money--on flying these artists over from Greece, from Italy, from London--housing them, feeding them--we were not--we were a sizable theater, but this was--to me--it was excessive considering what we could have been doing with that money to further growth in our own community. Then, to add insult to injury, we were doing these public forums with these international artists and inviting artists from the community in with the implication that You can learn from these people and you certainly can learn from people--from anybody--but the truth is, um, some of these artists were not as talented--in my opinion--as the artists we had right here at home. Some of them were simply more exotic.
ME: Not to change the subject, but was the young woman you mentioned--the one you mentor--was she on the list?
THEM: She and her company were on the list.
ME: So there was no major event that inspired the creation of this list?
THEM: Well, it's funny you should say that, because as time's gone on, and I've had some room to think about it--the list was shown to us about a week after there was a profile done in one of the local magazines about the young theater scene. As a result of that article, one of the theaters, and its Artistic Director, were asked to bring a play that they had done across the country to a very prestigious venue, and that was--it should have been a moment of pride for the entire community. I can't get into, um, like you said--the details--but it was just so wonderful.
ME: And you think that inspired this cracking down on--
THEM: Because we hadn't sanctioned it, you see. We had not--we had not--this theater was not one of our sister theaters. Those artists were not our artists. For something to take off in that way--to all of a sudden gain some momentum--and we have no part of it, it makes us--I did have some conversations about this, and from what I could tell, it was a two-fold problem. One--we were thought to be the preeminent theater in our area and maybe now that would be under siege if this other theater started gaining prominence, and two, why hadn't we worked with them? Why hadn't we recognized that they were a group we should have been involving ourselves with? It makes us look like we have bad judgment. That's how it was taken.
ME: And so the response was shut them down?
THEM: The response was pretend they're not there. Our audience at the theater was as cut-off as we were. Many of them--These aren't people who read the trades. These aren't people who read American Theater magazine. If we don't tell them about another theater, then that theater simply doesn't exist. Or that actor doesn't exist. Or that choreographer. That's how it was.
ME: But--and I've seen this before, so I sort of already know the answer to this, but--if that person or that group starts gaining national attention--
THEM: It doesn't matter. Before the interview we were talking about the village. How every regional theater operates as the village theater. You can't control the world, that's true. But you can control the village, and it's shocking to see how many people have no interest in what's going on outside the village unless it confirms something they already know to be true or want to believe.
ME: As they're bringing in artists from Italy and France?
THEM: It's to create the idea that Yes, we are worldly. Yes, we are critical thinkers. Yes, we care about the global community. But meanwhile, there is poverty where we are. And within--see, this is what would bother me. There was a lot of affection and care for the audience. For the non-creative community. But when you talked about artists, it was--people got nervous. Because the only way to give those people a voice and involve them in what you're doing is to let them in the door, and I would say, ninety percent of the people I worked with, at the highest levels of the organization, made it their life's mission not to let anybody in the door.
ME: Why?
THEM: Um, well, a lot of them weren't that special. (Laughs.) When you're not special, you hold onto what you have by using exclusion, using cliques, using, um, whatever you can. You don't usually just--work on yourself, which would be the hardest but the most, um, the most ethical thing to do.
ME: How did you last there seven years?
THEM: I think they were just afraid to fire me. I never really gave them cause to. They had asked me to come in. They wanted someone like me on staff.
ME: Forgive me for asking this, but--do you think it was for the optics?
THEM: A hundred percent, yes. I--I have been really damaged by the thought that I was used in that way. Even once I realized I was being used, I had given up so much to be there, I thought I could help re-calibrate the direction of the theater. With the help of some other people there as well. There were others on the same page as me. Not enough of us though.
ME: The group that was asked to take their show to that bigger venue--was that the group that your theater talked to the newspaper about?
THEM: You're asking leading questions.
ME: I wasn't sure how to--
THEM: (Laughs.) It's okay, I would have been mad if I forgot to talk about that. When that all happened, but before the list came out--I found out about this after I left, but I do have proof that it happened--um, the theater contacted the local newspaper--we have one big one and three smaller ones--I don't know if they contacted the three smaller ones, but I know they got wind of the main newspaper writing a story about the group, and they killed it.
ME: What do you mean killed it?
THEM: They threatened to pull advertising. We were a major advertiser.
ME: On what grounds?
THEM: They said that if a group that didn't advertise was going to get that kind of press, then why would we bother advertising? So it was that argument.
ME: But that's like acknowledging pay-to-play and then complaining that pay-to-play isn't working in your favor.
THEM: That's essentially what happened.
ME: Was the fear that a feature in the paper would make your audience--
THEM: Yes. It was to kill awareness more than anything. Stop them before they leave the village. Block the roads. That's what it was.
ME: What were you thinking when you found that out?
THEM: I was thinking I wanted to tell as many people as possible.
ME: Did you?
THEM: I did, and it just--I even let the group know about it. They were scared to come out and say something, because they didn't want to become the target--I mean, they already were--but they didn't want to draw any more attacks from a theater that is seemingly indestructible.
ME: But you had proof.
THEM: I did, and everyone felt that it was better to just drop it. Even though, to me, it indicated that they had probably done things like that before, and it was very unsettling to me.
ME: There was a concerted effort to drown an entire smaller community then?
THEM: I believe so, yes.
ME: That's...scary.
THEM: It is scary.
ME: Hopefully if we can get this interview to the right people, maybe we can make some change happen.
THEM: I just want to warn you, Kevin, that--do you want to include this in the interview?
ME: What you're about to say? The warning?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Yeah, I do. (Laughs.) It's very dramatic.
THEM: (Laughs.) I just want to warn you--really though--they're going to come after you. They do not like being criticized.
ME: Am I going to be put on a list?
THEM: You might be.
ME: Wouldn't be the first time.
Them is currently a freelance artist and grant writer.
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