A few interviews ago, I encountered the term "paper heroes" referring to people who look great on paper and are then propped up by an arts community regardless of whether or not that person is ready for the prop.
I got soooooo many messages about paper heroes in all kinds of communities, but one in particular jumped out at me.
Here's the interview:
ME: Can I call you out before we start?
THEM: Damn, we already getting to the call-out?
ME: (Laughs.) I just need to get it out of the way.
THEM: You go ahead then.
ME: You...you could kind of be considered...by some people...to be a paper hero yourself.
THEM: This is true.
ME: I just had to--
THEM: It's true, no, it's true. Or wait--are you saying I am a paper hero or--
ME: That you were here.
THEM: I was, yes. I wouldn't say I am anymore. But this is the karma thing coming at me now, because I'm out here trying to call people paper heroes, and my own self is problematic all on its own.
ME: Because you were given your first big break as a writer because of how you looked on paper.
THEM: That's true. I was twenty-one.
ME: They gave you--Okay, so you were given a lot of money.
THEM: A lot of money.
ME: We won't say how much, but it was a lot.
THEM: It was a lot, yes.
ME: They gave you that much money and you were twenty-one years old?
THEM: They were--we gonna say who they is?
ME: An--once again we're doing the arts funding dance again--an arts organization in your area gave you--was it a fellowship or--?
THEM: It was something like that.
ME: They give you this fellowship at twenty-one.
THEM: They--I was going to say--they were really hard up at that time to have some kind of voice in the community that was not so--
ME: Caucasian?
THEM: (Laughs.) Yes, and here comes me. I have this play. It's a bad play.
ME: How bad was it?
THEM: It was really bad. (Laughs.) I refuse to go back and look at it, but I know it was bad. At the time, I wasn't even sure it was--I knew it wasn't that good. I applied for the money. I think I filled out half the application, because I did it the night before this big exam. They called me and said 'You got the money.' I thought they were crazy.
ME: Even then.
THEM: Even then I thought so. That was the beginning of my time in [Name of City].
ME: And that was how long ago?
THEM: Ten years now.
ME: And after that you sort of moved in a different direction?
THEM: I wanted to act--plain and simple. I figured out writing was not for me. Then what happens is, I get sat down by a person of note in the community, someone I respect, who tells me, 'We need you to be this voice.' I'm like--I respect you, but I don't have to be anything. Don't tell me to stand up and speak and be a poster child. That should be my choice. I just rejected that completely. I'm not telling you I'm not political, but I'm political in my own way. Nobody else is going to tell me how to be political.
ME: So ten years goes by and somebody else comes along--
THEM: This is where I get my a** in trouble.
ME: Because--
THEM: This person--I'm going to speak wisely now--rolls into town, same as me, but without anything at all to their name. I had a bad play. The play was bad. I'll give you that. But they got no play at all. Right away, let's give them a megaphone. Call them a rising artist. Rising--based on what? Now, I say that--Rising based on what? Which is a legitimate question--I feel. Rising based on what? I start asking around town. The person comes to me and says 'Why you knocking me down like that?' I said, 'First of all, come at me with a different tone.' Because I didn't like his f***ing tone, I'll tell you that much. He repositions the conversation. I say, 'You have no work. It's that simple. You. Have. No. Work. So why am I hearing so much about this artist whose so good, so good? You don't have any art to show me or anybody else.' They want to position you the way they positioned me. I tell him that. He says 'I'm ready for that and don't be having these conversations in public. This should be kept private between us. We don't need to be saying this in front of people outside our community.' I said, 'What community you talking about?' See, I thought he's talking about the arts community. He's not. He's telling me to keep this in the family. I say, 'I don't do that s***. Nobody's trying to tear you down. We got people in this community been working for a long time who never got called rising artists, and we can't be protecting your a** just because you look like me. That's not how it's going to work. You don't even need the protection. You got the higher ups protecting you.' After that it was World War III.
ME: What kind of opportunities was this person being given?
THEM: You name it. He says he's a jack-of-all-trades. Right away he's acting at two different theaters--professional theaters--getting paid. We got people in this city who are three times better and experienced and they never had that.
ME: Why do you think that is?
THEM: Hang on, let me finish.
ME: I'm sorry.
THEM: They're doing workshops of half-a***ed ideas he has. Not even plays. Outlines. They're doing workshops of outlines. You ever heard s*** like that before?
ME: No.
THEM: It's the new thing. Workshops for outlines. They got him a residency--based on what I don't know. This was all two years ago and the man still hasn't written a damn thing.
ME: Still?
THEM: Still. I keep waiting. I think he's scared now, because a lot of people are waiting.
ME: How is his acting?
THEM: For me? Bad.
ME: Oof.
THEM: Nobody else will say that but I will.
ME: Why will nobody else say it?
THEM: Because he's the chosen one. Gotta protect him. Gotta make sure he doesn't get damaged, because we need his voice. That's what I keep hearing. We need his voice.
ME: But you must not disagree with the idea that we need diverse voices?
THEM: But you can't make them up out of thin air, Kevin. You gotta--Give this boy the training and the support he needs to become the voice of something. But you can't hand this boy a megaphone and say 'Go ahead with it.' You're setting him up doing it that way. This was a guy who, when he first got to town, posted on Twitter saying, 'I gotta move back to LA because there's no good p**** in this town.' You're going to give that person a platform? I don't think so. We got people right now who are ready to stand on that platform. I'm not talking about me, okay? I'm talking about women of color--let's not forget--one of the reasons they like this guy--and I will get in trouble, but that's okay--is because he's still straight. He's still a man. He's still got a good look without being dangerous. He's their chosen one, but who did the choosing? Not us. Not me. I didn't vote for his a**. That's what I'm saying.
ME: You're saying it's tokenism?
THEM: I'm saying it's racism. I don't use tokenism. Tokenism is racism. Just because it's coming from the other side, that doesn't mean it's not racism.
ME: And you've gotten flack for saying this?
THEM: A lot of flack. From all sides. Because I'm trying to tear him down? I'm not trying to tear him down. You still gotta do the work, and until you do, you don't get to have the same words applied to you that the people who work with me, people like [Lists Three Names] had to fight for to get that credit, to get those accolades. See, these days, you just need to say you're something, and people let you be it, so long as nobody calls your a** out.
ME: I call it printing the press release.
THEM: That's right. Just put it in the press release, and they'll go along with it. But as soon as somebody like me--or anybody--goes, 'Now hold up, where these clothes I'm hearing about?'
ME: The Emperor is naked.
THEM: I'm not seeing any clothes. Everybody panics. These places--your piece about grant organizations and people who give artists money--they don't want to do the real work of figuring out who to give a hand to. Who has something meaningful to say. They're just wondering who takes the best photos and knows all the buzzwords. They're going to be checking your Instagram followers pretty soon just like everybody else.
ME: Do you think some people might say that it's hard to say to someone 'Do the work' when a lot of these systems are set up to prevent somebody who isn't willing to play the game to get the work in the first place?
THEM: Then once they're in the door, you know what they say, Kevin? You know what I hear from people like this guy? As long as I get my check. That's what he said to me the last time we spoke when I said to him, 'They're giving you this chance the same way they gave me one, and I decided I didn't want it. You're saying you do. What are you going to do with it?' He didn't have an answer for that. I said, 'They're going to take pictures with you at their fundraisers so the guilty white liberals can feel good about themselves.' He goes 'As long as I get my check.' I have no use for him. Get your check, go ahead. Just don't let me hear anybody saying you're a hero. That's no hero. We got [Name of Artist] in this city turning down money from [Name of Business] because of who else they give money to, and you can look that up. I don't need to talk about it. But they're turning it down, and nobody's saying to them, 'Come work here. Come take this residency. Come speak at this event.' If you're going to an event with a bunch of rich people in black tie sitting there eating duck and you're supposed to be an artist, you should be making their a**es SWEAT, motherf***er. You should be making them squirm in their seats. Not clapping for you because you're who they rescued from the gutter. Miss me with that s***. In twenty years, they'll be giving this guy a lifetime achievement award and he still won't have a play to his name. Watch for it.
ME: Will you let me know if he ever writes that play?
THEM: I sure will.
ME: We can go together.
THEM: (Laughs.) It's a date.
Them is an actor and a former paper hero.
I got soooooo many messages about paper heroes in all kinds of communities, but one in particular jumped out at me.
Here's the interview:
ME: Can I call you out before we start?
THEM: Damn, we already getting to the call-out?
ME: (Laughs.) I just need to get it out of the way.
THEM: You go ahead then.
ME: You...you could kind of be considered...by some people...to be a paper hero yourself.
THEM: This is true.
ME: I just had to--
THEM: It's true, no, it's true. Or wait--are you saying I am a paper hero or--
ME: That you were here.
THEM: I was, yes. I wouldn't say I am anymore. But this is the karma thing coming at me now, because I'm out here trying to call people paper heroes, and my own self is problematic all on its own.
ME: Because you were given your first big break as a writer because of how you looked on paper.
THEM: That's true. I was twenty-one.
ME: They gave you--Okay, so you were given a lot of money.
THEM: A lot of money.
ME: We won't say how much, but it was a lot.
THEM: It was a lot, yes.
ME: They gave you that much money and you were twenty-one years old?
THEM: They were--we gonna say who they is?
ME: An--once again we're doing the arts funding dance again--an arts organization in your area gave you--was it a fellowship or--?
THEM: It was something like that.
ME: They give you this fellowship at twenty-one.
THEM: They--I was going to say--they were really hard up at that time to have some kind of voice in the community that was not so--
ME: Caucasian?
THEM: (Laughs.) Yes, and here comes me. I have this play. It's a bad play.
ME: How bad was it?
THEM: It was really bad. (Laughs.) I refuse to go back and look at it, but I know it was bad. At the time, I wasn't even sure it was--I knew it wasn't that good. I applied for the money. I think I filled out half the application, because I did it the night before this big exam. They called me and said 'You got the money.' I thought they were crazy.
ME: Even then.
THEM: Even then I thought so. That was the beginning of my time in [Name of City].
ME: And that was how long ago?
THEM: Ten years now.
ME: And after that you sort of moved in a different direction?
THEM: I wanted to act--plain and simple. I figured out writing was not for me. Then what happens is, I get sat down by a person of note in the community, someone I respect, who tells me, 'We need you to be this voice.' I'm like--I respect you, but I don't have to be anything. Don't tell me to stand up and speak and be a poster child. That should be my choice. I just rejected that completely. I'm not telling you I'm not political, but I'm political in my own way. Nobody else is going to tell me how to be political.
ME: So ten years goes by and somebody else comes along--
THEM: This is where I get my a** in trouble.
ME: Because--
THEM: This person--I'm going to speak wisely now--rolls into town, same as me, but without anything at all to their name. I had a bad play. The play was bad. I'll give you that. But they got no play at all. Right away, let's give them a megaphone. Call them a rising artist. Rising--based on what? Now, I say that--Rising based on what? Which is a legitimate question--I feel. Rising based on what? I start asking around town. The person comes to me and says 'Why you knocking me down like that?' I said, 'First of all, come at me with a different tone.' Because I didn't like his f***ing tone, I'll tell you that much. He repositions the conversation. I say, 'You have no work. It's that simple. You. Have. No. Work. So why am I hearing so much about this artist whose so good, so good? You don't have any art to show me or anybody else.' They want to position you the way they positioned me. I tell him that. He says 'I'm ready for that and don't be having these conversations in public. This should be kept private between us. We don't need to be saying this in front of people outside our community.' I said, 'What community you talking about?' See, I thought he's talking about the arts community. He's not. He's telling me to keep this in the family. I say, 'I don't do that s***. Nobody's trying to tear you down. We got people in this community been working for a long time who never got called rising artists, and we can't be protecting your a** just because you look like me. That's not how it's going to work. You don't even need the protection. You got the higher ups protecting you.' After that it was World War III.
ME: What kind of opportunities was this person being given?
THEM: You name it. He says he's a jack-of-all-trades. Right away he's acting at two different theaters--professional theaters--getting paid. We got people in this city who are three times better and experienced and they never had that.
ME: Why do you think that is?
THEM: Hang on, let me finish.
ME: I'm sorry.
THEM: They're doing workshops of half-a***ed ideas he has. Not even plays. Outlines. They're doing workshops of outlines. You ever heard s*** like that before?
ME: No.
THEM: It's the new thing. Workshops for outlines. They got him a residency--based on what I don't know. This was all two years ago and the man still hasn't written a damn thing.
ME: Still?
THEM: Still. I keep waiting. I think he's scared now, because a lot of people are waiting.
ME: How is his acting?
THEM: For me? Bad.
ME: Oof.
THEM: Nobody else will say that but I will.
ME: Why will nobody else say it?
THEM: Because he's the chosen one. Gotta protect him. Gotta make sure he doesn't get damaged, because we need his voice. That's what I keep hearing. We need his voice.
ME: But you must not disagree with the idea that we need diverse voices?
THEM: But you can't make them up out of thin air, Kevin. You gotta--Give this boy the training and the support he needs to become the voice of something. But you can't hand this boy a megaphone and say 'Go ahead with it.' You're setting him up doing it that way. This was a guy who, when he first got to town, posted on Twitter saying, 'I gotta move back to LA because there's no good p**** in this town.' You're going to give that person a platform? I don't think so. We got people right now who are ready to stand on that platform. I'm not talking about me, okay? I'm talking about women of color--let's not forget--one of the reasons they like this guy--and I will get in trouble, but that's okay--is because he's still straight. He's still a man. He's still got a good look without being dangerous. He's their chosen one, but who did the choosing? Not us. Not me. I didn't vote for his a**. That's what I'm saying.
ME: You're saying it's tokenism?
THEM: I'm saying it's racism. I don't use tokenism. Tokenism is racism. Just because it's coming from the other side, that doesn't mean it's not racism.
ME: And you've gotten flack for saying this?
THEM: A lot of flack. From all sides. Because I'm trying to tear him down? I'm not trying to tear him down. You still gotta do the work, and until you do, you don't get to have the same words applied to you that the people who work with me, people like [Lists Three Names] had to fight for to get that credit, to get those accolades. See, these days, you just need to say you're something, and people let you be it, so long as nobody calls your a** out.
ME: I call it printing the press release.
THEM: That's right. Just put it in the press release, and they'll go along with it. But as soon as somebody like me--or anybody--goes, 'Now hold up, where these clothes I'm hearing about?'
ME: The Emperor is naked.
THEM: I'm not seeing any clothes. Everybody panics. These places--your piece about grant organizations and people who give artists money--they don't want to do the real work of figuring out who to give a hand to. Who has something meaningful to say. They're just wondering who takes the best photos and knows all the buzzwords. They're going to be checking your Instagram followers pretty soon just like everybody else.
ME: Do you think some people might say that it's hard to say to someone 'Do the work' when a lot of these systems are set up to prevent somebody who isn't willing to play the game to get the work in the first place?
THEM: Then once they're in the door, you know what they say, Kevin? You know what I hear from people like this guy? As long as I get my check. That's what he said to me the last time we spoke when I said to him, 'They're giving you this chance the same way they gave me one, and I decided I didn't want it. You're saying you do. What are you going to do with it?' He didn't have an answer for that. I said, 'They're going to take pictures with you at their fundraisers so the guilty white liberals can feel good about themselves.' He goes 'As long as I get my check.' I have no use for him. Get your check, go ahead. Just don't let me hear anybody saying you're a hero. That's no hero. We got [Name of Artist] in this city turning down money from [Name of Business] because of who else they give money to, and you can look that up. I don't need to talk about it. But they're turning it down, and nobody's saying to them, 'Come work here. Come take this residency. Come speak at this event.' If you're going to an event with a bunch of rich people in black tie sitting there eating duck and you're supposed to be an artist, you should be making their a**es SWEAT, motherf***er. You should be making them squirm in their seats. Not clapping for you because you're who they rescued from the gutter. Miss me with that s***. In twenty years, they'll be giving this guy a lifetime achievement award and he still won't have a play to his name. Watch for it.
ME: Will you let me know if he ever writes that play?
THEM: I sure will.
ME: We can go together.
THEM: (Laughs.) It's a date.
Them is an actor and a former paper hero.
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