There's a reason I don't do these interviews in person.
Here's what you need to read, if you're new to this story--
Last Friday, I posted an interview with the person who took over for the Professor as they begin their first semester at the college, and if you want to read that (and I highly encourage you to), you can become a supporter of my theater company (Epic) on Patreon. You pay $3.50 a month (or more, if you're feeling generous), and you get lots of cool stuff, including extra interviews about all kinds of things. Go to www.Patreon.com/EpicTheatreCo to sign up.
Now, in terms of today--
The title says it all, so let's just get right to it.
Here's the interview:
ME: So hello.
THEM: Hello.
ME: What made you decide to agree to this interview?
THEM: I guess I'm a glutton for punishment.
THEM: I guess I'm a glutton for punishment.
ME: Can you talk about the events that led up to your firing?
THEM: I wasn't fired, I resigned.
THEM: I wasn't fired, I resigned.
ME: Okay.
THEM: I saw what direction things were going in, and I decided that it was time for me to go. This is not a place where I belong anymore and it was time to start a new chapter.
ME: Did you read the interview I did with your former student?
THEM: The last one?
ME: The one you tried to orchestrate?
THEM: I don't know what you mean by orchestrate.
THEM: The last one?
ME: The one you tried to orchestrate?
THEM: I don't know what you mean by orchestrate.
ME: You told them to lie to me.
THEM: I never told anyone to lie.
ME: You tried to get them to give me specific answers to questions you thought I would ask.
THEM: I wanted them to be prepared since you have a history of manipulating people.
ME: So you decided the solution was to do your own manipulation.
THEM: I wanted to make sure they didn't say anything that they would later regret.
ME: Then why have them talk to me at all?
THEM: You asked me--
THEM: You asked me--
ME: You could have said 'No.'
THEM: I didn't have anything to hide.
ME: But clearly you did.
THEM: Nothing that I'm aware of.
ME: Did you know your students recorded you--
THEM: Without my permission. Which is illegal.
ME: Well, I don't want to give away what state your college is in, but I checked and it's a one-party consent state, which means, they didn't need your permission.
THEM: My lawyer says otherwise.
ME: You might want to get a new lawyer.
THEM: What I said on those recordings was said on a bad day.
ME: They were recorded over multiple days.
THEM: You never get angry at your job? Maybe I should come record you.
ME: Oh, don't bother. I put it all on Facebook.
THEM: That's right. You're only forthright on social media. Other than that, you're just fame hungry and you think hurting other people is funny.
ME: I don't think it's funny at all. I find this very sad.
THEM: It is sad. It is sad to have somebody you've never met try to ruin your career.
ME: Sir, at least you had a career and you denying that chance to others.
THEM: I have given many people endless time, endless knowledge--
ME: Did you say a former student uses sex for career advancement?
THEM: I was trying to teach the students in front of me at the time something.
ME: What were you trying to teach them?
THEM: That they should have integrity. That they should conduct themselves--
ME: So you decided that the best way to teach students about integrity was to slander a former student?
THEM: It's not slander if it's true, Kevin.
ME: How would you know if it's true?
THEM: Based on what other students have told me--
ME: So your former favorites--
THEM: I didn't--
ME: I know who they are. They've been very present in my inbox as of late.
THEM: Many people think that what you're doing is unfair.
ME: Many people who work in real estate should keep their opinions to themselves when it comes to theater.
THEM: There's nothing wrong with real estate.
ME: But you can see how many someone who majored in theater, took your advice, and wound up selling condos, might be a little bitter when it comes to other classmates who have done significantly better than they have. Just some speculation on your slut-shaming, provided it's even true.
THEM: There was no slut-shaming.
ME: Did you call a former student a bitch?
THEM: That was after they had said something about me on Facebook that was disparaging of my character.
ME: So you thought the appropriate response to a former student saying something disparaging about you was to go into a room full of students and label them a bitch?
THEM: I wasn't think about whether it was an appropriate response or not.
ME: You just decided to take advantage of a captive audience.
THEM: My students and my former students are all adults. If they say something about me, I'm entitled to respond. That's what I tried to teach my entire career--that you are not children in college, you are adults.
ME: Adults under the thumb of other adults.
THEM: I don't think that's a fair representation.
ME: Did you tell the student I interviewed that if they answered questions the way you wanted or said certain things, they'd get a lead role in your spring production?
THEM: I did not say that.
ME: Did you insinuate it?
THEM: I don't know how they heard what I said, but what I said was that if you manipulated them into saying something damaging about the program--
ME: It wouldn't be about the program. It would be about you.
THEM: Do you have any idea the damage you've done by starting all this? The students that are there now--some of them are seniors--have had me as their Chair for their entire college career. This is going to be a huge disruption for them and for the faculty. You have put educations in danger. You've endangered the entire program.
ME: Sir, your student couldn't even tell me who Meisner is. Don't lecture me about this--
THEM: My student--
ME: --This golden program that I smashed to pieces. What the hell were you teaching these kids? Theater games and Almost Maine?
THEM: I was teaching them how to be theater professionals.
ME: You think accusing someone of sleeping around is professional?
THEM: I'm not going to be judged for a handful of bad moments when you're looking at a career that's lasted for twenty years.
ME: Would you apologize for it?
THEM: For what?
ME: For saying what you said.
THEM: Who would I apologize to?
ME: The person you said it about.
THEM: I don't speak to that person and I don't think they have any interest in speaking to me, so I don't see the point.
ME: You could do it here. I'm sure they'll be reading this.
THEM: I'd rather not.
ME: Okay. Do you remember when you told me that you teach your students about respect?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Would you say you've treated all your students with respect?
THEM: Yes, I would.
ME: I--
THEM: I would say that I didn't--This is about whether or not I got along with my students.
ME: It's not about that.
THEM: That's what you've made it about. You've made it about that, Kevin. What I want to say is that I don't need to get along with people to teach them if they're willing to be taught. I don't have to get along with people in order to show them respect. You don't show people respect because you don't get along with a lot of people and a lot of people don't like you. That's how you conduct yourself. That's not how I conduct myself, and it's not how I taught my students to behave.
ME: You know, you were a lot nicer during our first interview.
THEM: That was before I knew your true intentions.
ME: Do you think my goal in life was get you fired? Sorry--to have you resign?
THEM: I don't know what your goals are other than to write this blog of yours and make up trouble where there isn't any.
ME: Don't forget about owning a miniature pig. That's a big goal of mine.
THEM: Again, you think this is a joke.
ME: Sir, you ran a theater program for twenty years built around the sole purpose of creating working actors and the only working actors your program graduated say nothing you did helped them at all. If there's a joke here, I think we both know who it is.
THEM: You have a minority of former students who are making a big noise, but that doesn't--
ME: Two hundred students.
THEM: Excuse me?
ME: I've been busy. So has [Name of Former Student]. They wrote a letter about their experience that they're submitting to the college to have some kind of record of your behavior, and they got it signed by two hundred and eight-three of your former students, and that's just since [they] started asking people a month ago. They get more names and every day more people are contributing their stories of what happened. This is not a minority issue, and even if it was, two hundred people saying you did damage is too many. Two people would be too many. That's what the last interview about this brought up and the person I was interviewing was right, if you hurt one student who was counting on you to do right by them, that is too much. You don't get to dismiss it because you have forty or fifty people on the other side saying they just loved how many leads you gave them and how you gave them a pep talk on opening night. Nobody expects you to be a saint, but your stats are not good, sir. They're just not.
THEM: Where is this letter?
ME: It's going to be made available to you once all your students have had a chance to speak out.
THEM: It's that many?
ME: And counting.
THEM: I'm--I'm very surprised at that number.
ME: But do you hear what I'm saying about--
THEM: Yes, I do. I hear you.
ME: You know, sir, when I was in college, I had a professor look me in the face and essentially tell me that I was not going to succeed at something I had bet my entire life on. Theater is all I wanted to do, and he nearly made me give it up. So I take this very personally, and I will cop to that. I am just trying to understand how it doesn't bother you when you hear these people saying 'I've been hurt by you.' I don't understand that.
THEM: It does bother me, but there's nothing I can do about it.
ME: I just offered you the chance to apologize.
THEM: But for them to say I wasn't a good teacher when I had nothing but the highest of hopes for them and their careers--
ME: It's not about hope, and it's not about their careers. Everybody who pursues this as a passion is only ever, at best, ten percent certain that they don't suck at it. Your job is to protect that ten percent and maybe get it up to twelve.
THEM: That's your opinion of a teacher does. Not everybody is going to have that opinion.
ME: So you thought your only job was to get them work?
THEM: I felt that if I could do that, I would be doing right by them.
ME: Why were you so focused on that?
THEM: Because these kids were risking a lot to study theater. They were putting themselves through school. They were working two jobs. I wasn't teaching trust fund babies.
ME: Then why were you so casual when one of your students told you they were struggling and you told them to transfer schools knowing they couldn't afford to?
THEM: I was trying to do for them what the people out in the world were going to do--and in much crueler ways.
ME: You were trying to get them to quit?
THEM: Kevin, it is not kind to encourage someone just so they can find out later that they don't belong doing what they're not able to do.
ME: But who are you to decide what they're able to do? You're one person at one school.
THEM: It was my job.
ME: That's not your job, sir.
THEM: It was my job, Kevin.
ME: Well, luckily, it's not your job anymore.
THEM: Are we all set? I'd like to wrap this up.
ME: I just...I'd like to ask you who your favorite teacher was.
THEM: My favorite teacher was a man named [Name].
ME: Was he a theater teacher?
THEM: He was an English teacher, but he taught Shakespeare. He was excellent. He was an excellent teacher.
ME: When did you have him?
THEM: I had him in high school.
ME: What made him an excellent teacher?
THEM: He demanded the best from his students. He was exacting. If you lied, he knew it. He didn't put up with that. He was tough. But he was fair. He really...He really set a high bar. You had to know your stuff in his class.
ME: Was he the kind of teacher you talk about when you talk about not needed to get along to be respected or to learn from someone?
THEM: Yes. He was not--He wasn't someone I would have said was my favorite teacher when I had him. He wouldn't have been anybody's favorite teacher because of how demanding he was, but later on, I saw what he was trying to do.
ME: Is that what you hoped would happen with some of these students? That they'd see the value in what you were teaching them and how you were doing it later on?
THEM: Uh. That might be true. Yes.
ME: Does it bother you when ten, fifteen, twenty years down the line--they don't feel that way?
(Silence.)
THEM: It. It doesn't make me feel--Yes. It does bother me.
ME: Because you sort of bet on an approach and then you just have to cross your fingers and hope that you're right, is that fair to say?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Thinking of it that way--that it's about doing what you think is right in the moment--would you say you've ever--doubled down on believing that even when it didn't seem true?
THEM: I--I don't see it as doubling down. I don't know how to be any way other than how I am when it comes to how I teach. So if you told me, 'This isn't working'--what else can I do?
ME: You can't change?
THEM: I. I don't know.
ME: Is that worth apologizing for? Not being able to change?
(Silence.)
ME: Is that something you could apologize for?
(More Silence.)
THEM: I can see why that would be...Yes.
ME: There are two hundred and eighty-three people who would really like that.
THEM: Yes.
ME: So could you do that?
(Silence.)
THEM: Can we take a break first?
ME: Sure.
THEM: Let me call you back.
ME: Okay.
He never called back.
THEM: I have given many people endless time, endless knowledge--
ME: Did you say a former student uses sex for career advancement?
THEM: I was trying to teach the students in front of me at the time something.
ME: What were you trying to teach them?
THEM: That they should have integrity. That they should conduct themselves--
ME: So you decided that the best way to teach students about integrity was to slander a former student?
THEM: It's not slander if it's true, Kevin.
ME: How would you know if it's true?
THEM: Based on what other students have told me--
ME: So your former favorites--
THEM: I didn't--
ME: I know who they are. They've been very present in my inbox as of late.
THEM: Many people think that what you're doing is unfair.
ME: Many people who work in real estate should keep their opinions to themselves when it comes to theater.
THEM: There's nothing wrong with real estate.
ME: But you can see how many someone who majored in theater, took your advice, and wound up selling condos, might be a little bitter when it comes to other classmates who have done significantly better than they have. Just some speculation on your slut-shaming, provided it's even true.
THEM: There was no slut-shaming.
ME: Did you call a former student a bitch?
THEM: That was after they had said something about me on Facebook that was disparaging of my character.
ME: So you thought the appropriate response to a former student saying something disparaging about you was to go into a room full of students and label them a bitch?
THEM: I wasn't think about whether it was an appropriate response or not.
ME: You just decided to take advantage of a captive audience.
THEM: My students and my former students are all adults. If they say something about me, I'm entitled to respond. That's what I tried to teach my entire career--that you are not children in college, you are adults.
ME: Adults under the thumb of other adults.
THEM: I don't think that's a fair representation.
ME: Did you tell the student I interviewed that if they answered questions the way you wanted or said certain things, they'd get a lead role in your spring production?
THEM: I did not say that.
ME: Did you insinuate it?
THEM: I don't know how they heard what I said, but what I said was that if you manipulated them into saying something damaging about the program--
ME: It wouldn't be about the program. It would be about you.
THEM: Do you have any idea the damage you've done by starting all this? The students that are there now--some of them are seniors--have had me as their Chair for their entire college career. This is going to be a huge disruption for them and for the faculty. You have put educations in danger. You've endangered the entire program.
ME: Sir, your student couldn't even tell me who Meisner is. Don't lecture me about this--
THEM: My student--
ME: --This golden program that I smashed to pieces. What the hell were you teaching these kids? Theater games and Almost Maine?
THEM: I was teaching them how to be theater professionals.
ME: You think accusing someone of sleeping around is professional?
THEM: I'm not going to be judged for a handful of bad moments when you're looking at a career that's lasted for twenty years.
ME: Would you apologize for it?
THEM: For what?
ME: For saying what you said.
THEM: Who would I apologize to?
ME: The person you said it about.
THEM: I don't speak to that person and I don't think they have any interest in speaking to me, so I don't see the point.
ME: You could do it here. I'm sure they'll be reading this.
THEM: I'd rather not.
ME: Okay. Do you remember when you told me that you teach your students about respect?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Would you say you've treated all your students with respect?
THEM: Yes, I would.
ME: I--
THEM: I would say that I didn't--This is about whether or not I got along with my students.
ME: It's not about that.
THEM: That's what you've made it about. You've made it about that, Kevin. What I want to say is that I don't need to get along with people to teach them if they're willing to be taught. I don't have to get along with people in order to show them respect. You don't show people respect because you don't get along with a lot of people and a lot of people don't like you. That's how you conduct yourself. That's not how I conduct myself, and it's not how I taught my students to behave.
ME: You know, you were a lot nicer during our first interview.
THEM: That was before I knew your true intentions.
ME: Do you think my goal in life was get you fired? Sorry--to have you resign?
THEM: I don't know what your goals are other than to write this blog of yours and make up trouble where there isn't any.
ME: Don't forget about owning a miniature pig. That's a big goal of mine.
THEM: Again, you think this is a joke.
ME: Sir, you ran a theater program for twenty years built around the sole purpose of creating working actors and the only working actors your program graduated say nothing you did helped them at all. If there's a joke here, I think we both know who it is.
THEM: You have a minority of former students who are making a big noise, but that doesn't--
ME: Two hundred students.
THEM: Excuse me?
ME: I've been busy. So has [Name of Former Student]. They wrote a letter about their experience that they're submitting to the college to have some kind of record of your behavior, and they got it signed by two hundred and eight-three of your former students, and that's just since [they] started asking people a month ago. They get more names and every day more people are contributing their stories of what happened. This is not a minority issue, and even if it was, two hundred people saying you did damage is too many. Two people would be too many. That's what the last interview about this brought up and the person I was interviewing was right, if you hurt one student who was counting on you to do right by them, that is too much. You don't get to dismiss it because you have forty or fifty people on the other side saying they just loved how many leads you gave them and how you gave them a pep talk on opening night. Nobody expects you to be a saint, but your stats are not good, sir. They're just not.
THEM: Where is this letter?
ME: It's going to be made available to you once all your students have had a chance to speak out.
THEM: It's that many?
ME: And counting.
THEM: I'm--I'm very surprised at that number.
ME: But do you hear what I'm saying about--
THEM: Yes, I do. I hear you.
ME: You know, sir, when I was in college, I had a professor look me in the face and essentially tell me that I was not going to succeed at something I had bet my entire life on. Theater is all I wanted to do, and he nearly made me give it up. So I take this very personally, and I will cop to that. I am just trying to understand how it doesn't bother you when you hear these people saying 'I've been hurt by you.' I don't understand that.
THEM: It does bother me, but there's nothing I can do about it.
ME: I just offered you the chance to apologize.
THEM: But for them to say I wasn't a good teacher when I had nothing but the highest of hopes for them and their careers--
ME: It's not about hope, and it's not about their careers. Everybody who pursues this as a passion is only ever, at best, ten percent certain that they don't suck at it. Your job is to protect that ten percent and maybe get it up to twelve.
THEM: That's your opinion of a teacher does. Not everybody is going to have that opinion.
ME: So you thought your only job was to get them work?
THEM: I felt that if I could do that, I would be doing right by them.
ME: Why were you so focused on that?
THEM: Because these kids were risking a lot to study theater. They were putting themselves through school. They were working two jobs. I wasn't teaching trust fund babies.
ME: Then why were you so casual when one of your students told you they were struggling and you told them to transfer schools knowing they couldn't afford to?
THEM: I was trying to do for them what the people out in the world were going to do--and in much crueler ways.
ME: You were trying to get them to quit?
THEM: Kevin, it is not kind to encourage someone just so they can find out later that they don't belong doing what they're not able to do.
ME: But who are you to decide what they're able to do? You're one person at one school.
THEM: It was my job.
ME: That's not your job, sir.
THEM: It was my job, Kevin.
ME: Well, luckily, it's not your job anymore.
THEM: Are we all set? I'd like to wrap this up.
ME: I just...I'd like to ask you who your favorite teacher was.
THEM: My favorite teacher was a man named [Name].
ME: Was he a theater teacher?
THEM: He was an English teacher, but he taught Shakespeare. He was excellent. He was an excellent teacher.
ME: When did you have him?
THEM: I had him in high school.
ME: What made him an excellent teacher?
THEM: He demanded the best from his students. He was exacting. If you lied, he knew it. He didn't put up with that. He was tough. But he was fair. He really...He really set a high bar. You had to know your stuff in his class.
ME: Was he the kind of teacher you talk about when you talk about not needed to get along to be respected or to learn from someone?
THEM: Yes. He was not--He wasn't someone I would have said was my favorite teacher when I had him. He wouldn't have been anybody's favorite teacher because of how demanding he was, but later on, I saw what he was trying to do.
ME: Is that what you hoped would happen with some of these students? That they'd see the value in what you were teaching them and how you were doing it later on?
THEM: Uh. That might be true. Yes.
ME: Does it bother you when ten, fifteen, twenty years down the line--they don't feel that way?
(Silence.)
THEM: It. It doesn't make me feel--Yes. It does bother me.
ME: Because you sort of bet on an approach and then you just have to cross your fingers and hope that you're right, is that fair to say?
THEM: Yes.
ME: Thinking of it that way--that it's about doing what you think is right in the moment--would you say you've ever--doubled down on believing that even when it didn't seem true?
THEM: I--I don't see it as doubling down. I don't know how to be any way other than how I am when it comes to how I teach. So if you told me, 'This isn't working'--what else can I do?
ME: You can't change?
THEM: I. I don't know.
ME: Is that worth apologizing for? Not being able to change?
(Silence.)
ME: Is that something you could apologize for?
(More Silence.)
THEM: I can see why that would be...Yes.
ME: There are two hundred and eighty-three people who would really like that.
THEM: Yes.
ME: So could you do that?
(Silence.)
THEM: Can we take a break first?
ME: Sure.
THEM: Let me call you back.
ME: Okay.
He never called back.
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