A Conversation About Theater Right Now

At about four o'clock this morning, I had finally done what I thought was a decent enough draft of a statement from my theater company laying out our support of the Black Lives Matter movement and putting together the first stages of an action plan that would help to show that we were ready to walk the walk when it comes to creating real change in our organization and our community.

Over the course of the weekend, I was able to get invaluable input from the staff at the theater as well as multiple Black artists I've either worked with at the theater or who I've interviewed for the anonymous interview series I do for this blog.  One of them stayed up with me on the phone until nearly dawn, and I can't put into words the gratitude I have for their wisdom and insight, but I certainly wasn't planning on taking up any more of their time or energy.

Then I got an email from them a few hours after we both went to bed asking if I would be willing to one of my interviews with them, so I got some coffee and said 'Absolutely.'

Here's the interview:

ME:  Long time no talk.

THEM:  Has it even been an hour?

ME:  It's been...I don't want to think about it.

THEM:  I knew I couldn't sleep no matter what. Are you working today?

ME:  I will be later.

THEM:  Do you want to do this another time?

ME:  No, that's okay. We can do it now. I'm surprised you wanted to do it now.

THEM:  My brain is going going you know?

ME:  Yeah.

THEM:  When we were talking about coming up with a statement and a plan I was thinking, More people should be present for this conversation. This is valuable.

ME:  We even did a Zoom call at one point.

THEM:  You had like five people in that call.  I give you credit, because I know it must have sounded like a bunch of yelling.

ME:  Yelling doesn't bother me.  Yell all you want.

THEM:  How do you feel about what we came up with?

ME:  I'm good with it, but the point isn't really me being good with it, right?

THEM:  You want others to feel good about what you're saying.

ME:  Yes.

THEM:  You want them to know you hear them.

ME:  Yes.

THEM:  That's important.

ME:  You and I actually talked for another interview although nobody's going to know that, because we never identified you.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  I'm all the interviews.  The Wolf, everybody--

ME:  The Professor.

THEM:  All of them.

ME:  You have an extensive history in both the arts, arts activism, fighting for equal rights, civil rights--

THEM:  Just tell everybody how old I am.  That'll say it all.

ME:  I wouldn't do that, but that's just my way of saying you know way more about this than I do.

THEM:  That's why you reached out.

ME:  I felt bad reaching out.

THEM:  Why?

ME:  Because it's not your job right now to help me out.

THEM:  No, but the way you did it was right.  You--You and I talk a lot.  This wasn't somebody coming out of the woodwork to ask for a favor.  You're a friend and we've had these conversations about doing the work so I was happy, because I already felt there was an investment there.

ME:  I really loved some of the questions you were coming up with in the Zoom meeting.

THEM:  There were a lot of good ones.

ME:  Are you comfortable sharing some of them here?

THEM:  Yes, I am.  That's one of the reasons I wanted to get in touch with you.  We're working on this statement and as we're doing that, I'm seeing theaters and other businesses where I'm from across the country posting their own statements and I'm seeing one or two have plans of action.  I'm seeing artists--who I'm friends with, Black artists, Latinx artists, white artists--shouting support for what I feel is meager.  I have to tell you, I think it's meager.  It's almost nothing at this point.  Coming from places--I'll speak to theaters right now, because that's what you cover here--theaters have done the bare minimum or less for years are now posting photos that say 'Black Lives Matter' and you have Black artists liking and commenting voicing their support when they should be saying, Not good enough.

ME:  You kept repeating that last night.  Not good enough.

THEM:  I do--Before someone says, 'Don't penalize them for trying' I'm not. Get really comfortable with saying 'This is what I can do and it's a day late and a dollar short and it's not enough but I'm going to do better.'  You need to start getting this right, but that doesn't mean you're going to be able to, but you need to try, and that means, because these are public-facing businesses and theaters, that you're going to fail and you're going to fail publicly and that's scary right now because of cancel culture and all that, but that's what you have to do.  Now my job, or what I perceive my job to be, is to hold you accountable, but I'm not going to try closing you down because you say the wrong thing. You can't be afraid to fail because if you're joining the fight now, you're going to fail because we all fail in the beginning, but it's not easy to fail right now because social media is going to amplify those failures. That doesn't mean you can't do it.

ME:  You have to do it.

THEM:  You have to do it.  If you were following me this weekend, you saw me and a lot of other people asking for people to come out and speak up, but you and I talked and you had a great perspective on it that I would love you to share in this interview, but I don't know if you will.

ME:  Which part?

THEM:  About using social media for this.

ME:  Oh!  I was saying that this all happening on a weekend actually gave some people an out.  Because while I'm sure more people were using social media this weekend than normally would, the reality is that the numbers still aren't going to be as big as they're going to be during the week.  So you had people responding to what was happening on a Saturday night or a Sunday morning or afternoon, and that made them look like they were responding right away, and with a lot of people, I'm sure that's what it was, but without re-posting or posting similar things during the week, one of the things that was going to happen was that those posts were going to get buried.  The majority of your audience--

THEM:  And your donors.

ME:  Donors, sure, if you have them.

THEM:  (Laughs.)  I love you.

ME:  Um, but yeah, all that will get buried, and so you get the perception of being all over this issue, responding to it right away, and the option to then let a week's worth of news and other posts bury all that.

THEM:  I do think that's what was going on.  Not with everybody.  I did--Today I did see businesses that were posting over the weekend, getting praised for it, posting a lot of things not related to BLM or what's been going on, and I wonder if they're trying to push those posts down.  I also don't agree with people who are crying out for--I get it now.  Now it's Monday, so you should have something ready to go, but I didn't agree with people asking for these things over the weekend, because I wanted to see work put into those statements. I wanted to see a plan of action.  I'm not seeing that, and I'm not seeing anybody on any side--activists or allies--calling for that from these places.  It's not good enough.

ME:  You pressed me to come up with numbers.

THEM:  I want to see numbers.  I don't want to see 'In theory.'  That's what it sounds like to me.  In theory we'll do these things.  We really want to.  No.  Show me numbers.

ME:  Right.

THEM:  I also told you that there are things I think you're doing well and other people need to catch up to.  I want to see artists on all sides asking the theaters where they've worked and where they've had checks cut to them, and yes I will put it that way, because my brothers and my sisters out there know exactly what I'm talking about, I want to see them ask those places when the last time was that they produced a play by a Black writer.  I want to know how many times they've hired Black directors.  I want to know when the last time they had a cast with no Black actors in it and was that recently?  Was that last year?  When was it?  I want to get all the cards out on the table.  Ask those questions.  Don't be vague.  Because you being vague means as soon as you're done posting about how you want to hold people to a new standard, I see you liking posts from a theater that has a staff with no Black employees, no Brown employees--there's a theater here where if you do the numbers, the real numbers, it's 2% of a very large staff that's Black.  A very large staff.  Let me make that point.  Bring that up in those posts of yours and tag that theater.  Put them on notice.  Don't let me see you asking them in the comments section of their post what their plan is.  That's you having it both ways.  None of that.

ME:  I also loved your advice to someone else that was in the Zoom meeting before you and I broke off and kept working.

THEM:  Yes, thank you.  I said you have to know that you can't fight at a hundred percent all the time and you need to think about where you're putting your energy.  To be--I'll tell you the truth--Helping you was a nice break for me and I needed a break.  I'd been out the night before here protesting and I went out all day and went to two other protests near here and I didn't get home until--I was going to go back out and I had to check in with myself and realize that I needed to pick a different way to fight that night.  That's why I was glad to help you and that was beneficial to me as well.  I see people fighting in the comments sections and using up their energy that way.  If you have extra energy to spare, that's fine with me, and I'm not trying to tell anybody their business, because you're no good to anybody in the middle of a panic attack.  You're no good to anybody if you need to be in bed all day because a racist online that you met at a party five years ago got you so upset you felt sick.  You need to know where to put your fight.  The fight is everywhere.  The fight needs to be fought everywhere, but you as a person cannot fight every fight and be everywhere.  We need strength more than anything.  Let me say that one more time.  More than anything right now, we need strength.  People are out here trying to deplete that strength, and they don't always do it by breaking bones.  They do it by breaking spirits.  They're vampires.  I know you love that show I watch too--The one we had on while we were talking--

ME:  What We Do in the Shadows.

THEM:  Yes!  The energy vampire.  That's what's going on.  That's one way they can break you.  They get you in a seven-hour argument online and where are you at the end of it?  It's important to speak up.  It's important to put people on notice.  But you going back and forth on Twitter with somebody is not a help.  Unfollow and go put that energy elsewhere.  That's probably the old [person] in me talking, but that's how I feel about it.  I went to pick up my friend yesterday to get out there and she told me 'I can't go out because my Dad and I got into it last night and--' I said, 'You gave too much to that fight.'  She goes 'I saw people saying tell off your racist relatives.  Call your racist relatives and call them out.'  Go ahead and do that.  But don't stay on the phone with them for six hours after that.  That's a waste.  Call them, call them out, and hang up.

ME:  Thank you for talking with me about this right now.  I appreciate you.

THEM:  I appreciate you too, Kevin.  I look forward to seeing the response from what we worked on and I thank you for giving me that to work on last night.

ME:  You going to get some sleep?

THEM:  Soon as I'm off with you.

ME:  Then let me let you go.

THEM:  Take care of yourself.  Love you.

ME:  Love you too.

Them is an artist and an activist.