Before we begin, make sure you're all caught up by reading these in order--
This is the ninth, and possibly final installment, in this series.
I now know where "Charlie" wound up after he moved from where this series took place, but I haven't been able to locate him there, and it's possible he may have moved again after that. I've tried tracking him down on social media and I even called around at a few theaters I know he worked at after the brawl, but so far, no luck. Franklin only knew of his location immediately after the brawl, but he wasn't aware of any moves after that.
We're currently talking about some sort of reunion event with all these people, but I'm not sure how we would do that while keeping anonymity, and many of the people involved, as you can imagine, have no interest in doing anything like that.
So this might be the end of the road.
I started this series before the pandemic began, and it was certainly a nice distraction, transcribing all these interviews and editing them so that they made sense. Many of these conversations went on for hours, so whittling them down was pretty tedious, so I'm glad they've gotten the response that they have.
There's no point in trying to find some deeper meaning to this story. Sometimes drama is just drama, and I don't think there's anything wrong with a little distraction when things are heavy, but I will say that the point of these interviews as a whole was to look into why people walk away from theater, and I feel like this story is a story a lot of us know well.
A group forms around a passion to do work and then bullshit gets in the way. Interpersonal bullshit. Egos. A failure to balance being inclusive while making sure you don't let any wolves in the hen house. It's hard. And it's understandable that some people look at it and say 'No thanks.'
I hope that the more we hear about these stories, the more we understand that every theater has the same problems, but that the problems, when they're twenty years removed, don't seem so intense and tragic and dire, but just silly. Like a soap opera. And that means we shouldn't let them deter us from doing what we were once so passionate to do.
Okay, enough of me.
Here's the interview:
ME: Can you hear me?
PIGPEN: I can hear you.
ME: You're a little blurry.
PIGPEN: My kids got me all set up on this. I'm still not used to it.
ME: None of us are.
PIGPEN: (Laughs.) As long as you can hear what I'm saying, nobody's going to see my ugly face are they?
ME: Nope. Just me.
PIGPEN: Okay.
ME: So I sent you the other interviews I did.
PIGPEN: You did, thank you.
ME: Did you read them?
PIGPEN: I did. I gotta ask. How the f___ did I end up with the nickname Pigpen?
PIGPEN: I did. I gotta ask. How the f___ did I end up with the nickname Pigpen?
ME: You know, it was pretty random.
PIGPEN: (Laughs.) Can I get a new name?
ME: I can call you PP.
ME: I can call you PP.
PIGPEN: (Laughs.) Nah, nah, leave it at Pigpen then. I'll be Pigpen.
ME: Works for me. Um, so this is awkward, but--even though everything is anonymous, I had some discomfort and some push-back from people, understandably, because we sort of--outed you in these interviews?
PIGPEN: I'm not sure what you mean when you say outed.
ME: We talked about you and Charlie having a relationship.
PIGPEN: I wouldn't say it was a relationship.
ME: What would you say it was?
PIGPEN: We f_____ around a little.
PIGPEN: We f_____ around a little.
ME: Okay then.
PIGPEN: (Laughs.) We had--He was crazy, Charlie. He really was. But you know, crazy people get the job done.
ME: What--Okay, I won't go into that.
PIGPEN: He charmed me. He did.
ME: Was he the first guy you ever--If any of this is too personal, you can--
PIGPEN: I don't give a f___. Ask what you want.
ME: Was he your first?
PIGPEN: Guy? Yes.
ME: Have there been any guys since?
PIGPEN: One, but nothing after I married my wife.
PIGPEN: One, but nothing after I married my wife.
ME: Does your wife know about you and Charlie?
PIGPEN: She will now.
PIGPEN: She will now.
ME: Does that make you nervous?
PIGPEN: Nah. I don't care who she got busy with before she met me. I think it's the same for her.
PIGPEN: Nah. I don't care who she got busy with before she met me. I think it's the same for her.
ME: So you and Charlie were very close?
PIGPEN: We were very close.
ME: How did your relationship go from just doing theater together to becoming intimate?
PIGPEN: I didn't, uh, I mean I wasn't living with him and making him eggs. It was ____ and some ____ and we did shows. That's what it was.
ME: But how did it get there?
PIGPEN: After rehearsal one night, we went out drinking. I offered to give him a ride home, because his car was in the shop, and when we got to his house, he told me Lucy couldn't ______ for _____ and he was thinking of going back to guys, because he went both ways.
PIGPEN: After rehearsal one night, we went out drinking. I offered to give him a ride home, because his car was in the shop, and when we got to his house, he told me Lucy couldn't ______ for _____ and he was thinking of going back to guys, because he went both ways.
ME: Did you know he was bisexual?
PIGPEN: Not until then, but he was a little fruity, no offense.
PIGPEN: Not until then, but he was a little fruity, no offense.
ME: I--Okay, well--Was he telling you that--about Lucy--to make a move on you?
PIGPEN: I didn't think that was it, but he tells me it and I ask him how he is at ____ _____ and he tells me he's the best. The best. I decided to see if he was telling the truth.
ME: So you went inside his house?
PIGPEN: We couldn't. He was living with his mother at that time.
PIGPEN: We couldn't. He was living with his mother at that time.
ME: So where--?
PIGPEN: My truck.
ME: Okay.
PIGPEN: Back of it. I had some blankets back there, because I used to go with a girl who still lived at home back then. Had to be creative.
ME: How many times were you together like that?
PIGPEN: In the truck?
ME: In general.
PIGPEN: In the truck?
ME: In general.
PIGPEN: A lot of times. Sometimes every night of the week. Sometimes Lucy joined in, sometimes not.
ME: So it was kind of serious then?
PIGPEN: I wouldn't say that. I'd say we liked each other's company. It was good. It felt good. That's all.
PIGPEN: I wouldn't say that. I'd say we liked each other's company. It was good. It felt good. That's all.
ME: How did things go south then?
PIGPEN: He wanted more and I didn't.
PIGPEN: He wanted more and I didn't.
ME: He developed feelings for you?
PIGPEN: Yes.
PIGPEN: Yes.
ME: There have been some accusations that you were abusive to women you were with?
PIGPEN: F____ no.
ME: No?
PIGPEN: Never put my hands on a woman. Never. Not once.
PIGPEN: Never put my hands on a woman. Never. Not once.
ME: Why do you think people were saying that?
PIGPEN: People saw me drinking too much. I did drink too much. I don't drink anymore. Been sober for twenty-two years. When I drank, I got angry and I would punch holes and do all that stupid s___, but I didn't put my hands on anyone. People might have wanted that to be true, but it wasn't.
PIGPEN: People saw me drinking too much. I did drink too much. I don't drink anymore. Been sober for twenty-two years. When I drank, I got angry and I would punch holes and do all that stupid s___, but I didn't put my hands on anyone. People might have wanted that to be true, but it wasn't.
ME: Why would people want that to be true?
PIGPEN: Because they were jealous of how close me and Charlie were and they would go to him and say I was hitting on my girlfriends and the theater shouldn't have me around anymore and Charlie would tell them to go kick sand, because he knew it was bulls____.
ME: But then you two fought?
PIGPEN: About him wanting to break things off with Lucy and have something with me.
ME: And you said 'No?'
PIGPEN: I said 'F___ no.'
ME: You never considered it?
PIGPEN: No.
PIGPEN: No.
ME: Why not?
PIGPEN: Wasn't interested?
ME: Because it was him, or because he was a guy?
PIGPEN: Because he was a guy and because I didn't want to s____ where I ate.
PIGPEN: Wasn't interested?
ME: Because it was him, or because he was a guy?
PIGPEN: Because he was a guy and because I didn't want to s____ where I ate.
ME: So because you two worked together at the theater as well?
PIGPEN: Yeah.
PIGPEN: Yeah.
ME: And he didn't take that well?
PIGPEN: No, he got right pissed off about it. The very next show I got myself a sucky role. Never had that happen before and I asked him what was up, but I already knew. He had it out for me, because I wouldn't play house with him, and I decided I would go at it on my own.
PIGPEN: No, he got right pissed off about it. The very next show I got myself a sucky role. Never had that happen before and I asked him what was up, but I already knew. He had it out for me, because I wouldn't play house with him, and I decided I would go at it on my own.
ME: To start the new company?
PIGPEN: Yes. Dumb idea.
PIGPEN: Yes. Dumb idea.
ME: Why was it a dumb idea?
PIGPEN: Because I didn't know a f___ing thing about running a theater.
ME: Well you were younger.
PIGPEN: Young and stupid, yes I was.
ME: Did you ask Lucy to join you at the new theater?
PIGPEN: I did.
PIGPEN: I did.
ME: Why?
PIGPEN: Because she knew how to run a theater. Charlie didn't. He didn't know the details of it. That was Lucy.
PIGPEN: Because she knew how to run a theater. Charlie didn't. He didn't know the details of it. That was Lucy.
ME: But then you changed your mind or--?
PIGPEN: I don't remember exactly how it went down, but one of the things that made me change my mind was Snoopy coming to me and telling me he could do all that. I didn't need Lucy and I couldn't trust her. That's what he said.
ME: Wasn't he Charlie's right-hand man?
PIGPEN: No, that was me.
ME: But they were good friends.
PIGPEN: Nobody was friends. None of us were friends. Not like you think of friends.
ME: So the night of the brawl, who called you?
PIGPEN: I knew you were getting to that.
PIGPEN: I knew you were getting to that.
ME: Was it Woodstock? Was it Lucy?
PIGPEN: I got more than one call. Everybody was calling that night, because Lucy went to the dressing room and threw it all down.
PIGPEN: I got more than one call. Everybody was calling that night, because Lucy went to the dressing room and threw it all down.
ME: So who got you to come down there? Was it Lucy?
PIGPEN: It was Charlie.
ME: Charlie called you?
PIGPEN: Charlie called me and left me a message telling me if I didn't come down there and face him like a man, he was going to tell everybody that I _____ his _____.
PIGPEN: Charlie called me and left me a message telling me if I didn't come down there and face him like a man, he was going to tell everybody that I _____ his _____.
ME: So he baited you?
PIGPEN: Yes. I would say that. Yes.
PIGPEN: Yes. I would say that. Yes.
ME: Why would he do that?
PIGPEN: You want my opinion?
PIGPEN: You want my opinion?
ME: Yes.
PIGPEN: He knew I was starting this company and he knew that I had talked to the people in charge of the auditorium--Lucy and I did before she and me got into a fight--and they were going to give us the theater, because they were sick of Charlie and his bullshit. He wasn't going to have the theater anymore and he wasn't going to have anywhere else to go. I think someone told him that that night, and he said, 'F___ it. I'll just burn it all down.'
ME: He thought baiting you into coming there and fighting with him--
PIGPEN: He told Linus if he took Schroeder through the glass he'd pay him a hundred bucks.
ME: What?
PIGPEN: You talked to anybody who saw it? Linus shoved Schroeder through that window.
PIGPEN: You talked to anybody who saw it? Linus shoved Schroeder through that window.
ME: That's not what--
PIGPEN: That's how it went down. Linus wanted to ____ Charlie's ____ more than anybody, and he went right to him, 'Put Schroeder through that _____' and he threw it a hundred bucks to sweeten the pot. Linus put somebody--I think it was Rerun--He put him through a table too. He was going all around trashing s___. That was what it was all about. To make a big mess of it all so I'd get the blame and the people on my side, and then Charlie could play victim, or we'd all be f____ed.
ME: Wow.
PIGPEN: Get me in trouble and either Charlie keeps the theater or nobody does. Turns out nobody did.
PIGPEN: Get me in trouble and either Charlie keeps the theater or nobody does. Turns out nobody did.
ME: That's insane.
PIGPEN: That's Charlie.
ME: Did you think about not going down there? Did you have sense what he might have been trying to do?
PIGPEN: I thought I was going to take him out in the parking lot and whoop his ass. I wasn't going to do it right there in the lobby.
PIGPEN: I thought I was going to take him out in the parking lot and whoop his ass. I wasn't going to do it right there in the lobby.
ME: What changed your mind when you got there?
PIGPEN: I got there and I changed my mind and left. I sat in my car and I told myself I would wait until he came out to the parking lot and then I'd deal with him.
PIGPEN: I got there and I changed my mind and left. I sat in my car and I told myself I would wait until he came out to the parking lot and then I'd deal with him.
ME: Were you going to jump him?
PIGPEN: No, I'm not a ____.
PIGPEN: No, I'm not a ____.
ME: Why did you go back in?
PIGPEN: Snoopy came out and taps on my window. He says to me, he says 'Charlie's going to say something to everybody here.'
ME: Meaning in the lobby after the show?
PIGPEN: Yes.
PIGPEN: Yes.
ME: You really thought he was going to tell everybody you two were hooking up right there in the lobby?
PIGPEN: He had done a lot worse than that. He didn't give a s____.
PIGPEN: He had done a lot worse than that. He didn't give a s____.
ME: So you believed he would do it.
PIGPEN: I did. That's why I went in and I said to him 'You better keep your mouth shut' and he took a swing at me.
ME: That's what started it?
PIGPEN: Yes.
ME: Not Lucy calling you?
PIGPEN: F____ Lucy. I don't--I'm not Lucy's puppet. Or I wasn't.
PIGPEN: F____ Lucy. I don't--I'm not Lucy's puppet. Or I wasn't.
ME: Didn't everybody already know you guys were doing stuff?
PIGPEN: What they think they know and what they hear told to them is two different things.
PIGPEN: What they think they know and what they hear told to them is two different things.
ME: Have you heard from Charlie since that night?
PIGPEN: No hard feelings.
ME: What?
PIGPEN: He called me the next day. No hard feelings.
PIGPEN: He called me the next day. No hard feelings.
ME: He did?
PIGPEN: Yes.
PIGPEN: Yes.
ME: What did you say?
PIGPEN: I hung up on him. Haven't talked to him since.
ME: Do you know where he is?
PIGPEN: No. No interest in finding out either.
PIGPEN: No. No interest in finding out either.
ME: Okay. By the way, can you tell everybody what show you were doing the night of the brawl?
PIGPEN: You know, don't you?
ME: I do, but I wanted you to say it as kind of a sign-off.
PIGPEN: You know, don't you?
ME: I do, but I wanted you to say it as kind of a sign-off.
PIGPEN: Oh I see.
ME: As a way to end it.
PIGPEN: We were doing a musical.
ME: Which one?
PIGPEN: You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown.
PIGPEN: You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown.
ME: Thanks. This was fun.
Pigpen runs his family's farm.
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